Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[Bigfoot]

Thats an ergonomic issue not software related but is that BMO is doing?

Wouldn't suprise me if swr were being allowed/asked to assist in getting the units into working order. Wimbledon/Bournemouth have a reputation for getting questionable stock to become very reliable.

Take the original 458 order as an example, almost withdrawn and off lease to being a golden spanner winner. Then converted (badly) to 5cars, very unreliable on introduction to what is now an OK unit once more. Similar story to the 455 retractioning

It's that or they are running out of space to store units and now the 442 have gone BMO has space to use.

 

[Goldfish62]

Wouldn't suprise me if swr were being allowed/asked to assist in getting the units into working order. Wimbledon/Bournemouth have a reputation for getting questionable stock to become very reliable.

Take the original 458 order as an example, almost withdrawn and off lease to being a golden spanner winner. Then converted (badly) to 5cars, very unreliable on introduction to what is now an OK unit once more. Similar story to the 455 retractioning

It's that or they are running out of space to store units and now the 442 have gone BMO has space to use.

Yes, and wasn't there close cooperation between SWT and Alstom to get the 458s working properly? Perhaps we'll see a repeat scenario!

 

[43096]

Yes, and wasn't there close cooperation between SWT and Alstom to get the 458s working properly?

No - it was quite the opposite. It was the lack of support from Alstom that was the root cause of the 458 problems which was why SWT went to Siemens for what became the 444s and 450s: they were that hacked off with Alstom that they went to a supplier who had never built a train for the UK DC system. It was Wimbledon depot and Porterbrook that sorted the 458s out.

 

[Fincra5]

I saw the following tweet by the Anon SWR Team Twitter account:



Messroom gossip? Or is there more to it?

Siemens don't make 700s anymore. So where would they come from GTR? Where the 700s are spec'd specifically for ATO and ECTS Level 2 operations in the Core (And then ETCS on the ECML)...

 

[hwl]

Wouldn't suprise me if swr were being allowed/asked to assist in getting the units into working order. Wimbledon/Bournemouth have a reputation for getting questionable stock to become very reliable.

Take the original 458 order as an example, almost withdrawn and off lease to being a golden spanner winner. Then converted (badly) to 5cars, very unreliable on introduction to what is now an OK unit once more. Similar story to the 455 retractioning

It's that or they are running out of space to store units and now the 442 have gone BMO has space to use.

With the clear out of the 442s at Bournemouth, SWR now have some space to help unlike previously.

 

[Goldfish62]

With the clear out of the 442s at Bournemouth, SWR now have some space to help unlike previously.

Plus there's space at Feltham for storage now that's open.

 

[AlexNL]

Siemens don't make 700s anymore.

The Desiro City platform is still proudly mentioned on Siemens Mobility's website, unlike the older "Desiro UK" platform.

If SWR would approach Siemens and ask for 750 coaches of Desiro City, I'm pretty sure Siemens will be happy to oblige. They can make some good PR with it too, as it could mean more work for their Goole factory.

 

[theageofthetra]

The general view I have heard from those dealing with Bombardier (as was) is that a) was the bigger part of the problem.

That does not surprise me. Had experience of that place in another industry. That no one will lose face and admit to not understanding something is endemic there.

 

[Roger B]

That does not surprise me. Had experience of that place in another industry. That no one will lose face and admit to not understanding something is endemic there.

I had very similar experiences as well. Quite good at following a script, but if (or I should say 'when', as they almost always do) anything unusual or unexpected happens, their problem solving skills (root cause identification, recovery management, remediation solutions, etc) were often sadly lacking. And combined with cultural issues, like the one you referred to, it was the opinion of most of my colleagues that the net effect was poorer value for money than other locations (eg the Baltic states). This was because much of the costs arising from the challenges noted above weren't recorded directly to the Bangalore operation. And I'm pretty sure this wasn't just sour grapes, seeing jobs relocated globally - it's interesting to note the difference in the reputations of the people and work performed between Bangalore and other non-UK locations.

 

[hwl]

I had very similar experiences as well. Quite good at following a script, but if (or I should say 'when', as they almost always do) anything unusual or unexpected happens, their problem solving skills (root cause identification, recovery management, remediation solutions, etc) were often sadly lacking. And combined with cultural issues, like the one you referred to, it was the opinion of most of my colleagues that the net effect was poorer value for money than other locations (eg the Baltic states). This was because much of the costs arising from the challenges noted above weren't recorded directly to the Bangalore operation. And I'm pretty sure this wasn't just sour grapes, seeing jobs relocated globally - it's interesting to note the difference in the reputations of the people and work performed between Bangalore and other non-UK locations.

Alstom (i.e. pre-merger Alstom) have Poland and Romania as their cheaper European software locations and a small Indian software operation (traction electronics). Hence they have other realistic known options if Bangalore performance doesn't improve.

That does not surprise me. Had experience of that place in another industry. That no one will lose face and admit to not understanding something is endemic there.

2 other industries for me. The first included winning a high court case when the private equity seller had covered up all the issues with a new software system so they could sell the company. Both seller and software provider ended up in court. It took me another 18months to work out how they got this past independent software testing contractors (which didn't end well for them either).

Consumer and governments in multiple countries needed up paying most of the cost for the replacement software system (delivered by local IBM staff - would have been cheaper to do this in the first place!).

The entire sector then started insert majority "onshore" provisions e.g. "staff based on site and we won't help the contractor with visa applications...."

 

[spark001uk]

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K06333/2021-08-12/detailed

5Q10 Derby LL - Eastleigh Trsmd
47727 + 701019

 

[samulih]

Just thinking after reading comments, how many here really understand the issues facing new trains and their implementation to be traffic-ready .... Just a thought, life have changed much from Mark 1 coaches.

 

[Goldfish62]

Just thinking after reading comments, how many here really understand the issues facing new trains and their implementation to be traffic-ready .... Just a thought, life have changed much from Mark 1 coaches.

Are you suggesting then that there's nothing abnormal about the length of time it's taking to test the 701s? It's certainly far more prolonged than other Aventras to date and also seems longer than SWR were envisaging given the constantly revised estimated service entry date.

 

[davews]

For information, when I passed through Feltham yesterday around 9.30 I saw the unit which has been berthed there for several weeks had left the depot and was seemingly waiting to join the main line. It was back in the depot when I came back in the afternoon. Nothing on RTT. So some sort of testing/movements taking place.

 

[Goldfish62]

For information, when I passed through Feltham yesterday around 9.30 I saw the unit which has been berthed there for several weeks had left the depot and was seemingly waiting to join the main line. It was back in the depot when I came back in the afternoon. Nothing on RTT. So some sort of testing/movements taking place.

That would be unit 006.

 

[Julia]

That does not surprise me. Had experience of that place in another industry. That no one will lose face and admit to not understanding something is endemic there.

Also had less-than-fun experiences of working for/with companies with offices there. There's definitely an endemic cultural issue of command-and-control management, leading to the actual developers passively obeying orders, delivering "to spec" without understanding the spec, avoiding deep testing because having no test is punished less than having a test that fails. Worst case (a major bank) wanting help with my tooling, the manager spent hours with me on Zoom calls to his team barking orders to his team to draw attention away from all the code that showed the fault was his, not mine...

 

[Ilovetrains43]

Does anyone know when the 701s will enter passenger service?

 

[Class360/1]

Does anyone know when the 701s will enter passenger service? And same question for the IL 484s.

484’s should ever service in mid September, at the earliest. Can’t remember about the 701 situation though

 

[Ilovetrains43]

484’s should ever service in mid September, at the earliest. Can’t remember about the 701 situation though

Thanks

 

[cnjb8]

484’s should ever service in mid September, at the earliest. Can’t remember about the 701 situation though

I’d heard mid to late 2021, with a pinch of salt with all the Aventra issues

 

[TEW]

I’d heard mid to late 2021, with a pinch of salt with all the Aventra issues

2021 seems incredibly unlikely now.

 

[gazr]

2021 seems incredibly unlikely now.

For real?! I know Wimbledon work miracles on the 455s, but they are past it now- getting to be the 142s of the South. How quick could Siemens get a fleet of 707s built and ready to go?

 

[Goldfish62]

2021 seems incredibly unlikely now.

Why?

 

[TEW]

Why?

Because training hasn't started yet and the start doesn't appear to be imminent.

 

[adc82140]

What is now actually wrong with them? The cabs I presume have now been approved by the unions, they trundle up and down the network on test during service hours, so they must be deemed safe to be run. So genuine question: what is still outstanding to sort before driver training can begin?

 

[Bigfoot]

What is now actually wrong with them? The cabs I presume have now been approved by the unions, they trundle up and down the network on test during service hours, so they must be deemed safe to be run. So genuine question: what is still outstanding to sort before driver training can begin?

A unit that actually passes its fault free running without failing would be helpful to the process of introduction. Bombardier Alstom are struggling to manage that as yet.

As a side note, GBRF are undertaking the testing (as mentioned countless times in this thread) NOT SWR. A train under test does not mean it's safe for passenger service.

 

[Goldfish62]

Because training hasn't started yet and the start doesn't appear to be imminent.

But why does that rule out this year?

 

[Aictos]

But why does that rule out this year?

Because maybe of the time needed for each Class 701 to pass it's fault free running without actually failing as explained in post #2848

 

[TEW]

But why does that rule out this year?

The timescales involved just make this year seem unlikely. A fair number of staff are going to need to be trained before the units are introduced, unless it is just a very limited introduction.

 

[pompeyfan]

It could be speculation but I’m under the impression there was issues with the simulator as well not meeting fire regs. It’s a standalone temporary construction in Clapham Yard car park, and not of the usual set up within Basingstoke ROC