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Class 707 to Southeastern Dates

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Nogoohwell

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This is a pointless exercise. SWR got rid of them because its a small subfleet that requires a lot of effort and cost to keep in service. All DFT has done is pass burden onto someone else.
Surely a common sense approach would have been to order more to replace the networkers OR put them in with the 701's. Cut and shut a few of them to form 8 coach units and form a few as 4 coaches and youve then got an operational mini-fleet that can be driven by the same drivers, maintained by the same teams and expand the Thameslink service to new routes.
 
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DynamicSpirit

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376s have been used on the Dartford - Victoria service. Used to ba a daily service pre covid.

Interesting. Was that with 10 cars, and if so how does that work with what I understood to be the short platforms, or was that at quiet times of the day when you could get away with a 5-coach train?
 

py_megapixel

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Just to remind everyone - SE have not said that's the final livery design, it's purely a mockup. I'd expect there to be light blue doors like the Electrostars.
 

ComUtoR

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Interesting. Was that with 10 cars, and if so how does that work with what I understood to be the short platforms, or was that at quiet times of the day when you could get away with a 5-coach train?

Yes they were 10 Cars.

The Victoria issue is where a complete fleet replacement would be the problem The Chatham main can cope with a 5 for most of the day but would suffer in the peaks. SDO wouldn't work because of the issues with junctions etc but the other big issue is Victoria itself.

There are 2 platforms that get used for the Orpy/Vic services that are limited to 8 any fleet changes would cause more restrictions into Victoria. Add in 10/12 scenarios and you lose even more platform space.

Running Dartford/Vic works with a 10 because it can provide an increase in capacity and because it typically runs platform 7/8 there isn't a major issue. Losing the Denmark Hill/Peckham/Nunhead stops from the service is a pain but when your just shovelling people out of Victoria then it can be beneficial.
 

BayPaul

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Yes they were 10 Cars.

The Victoria issue is where a complete fleet replacement would be the problem The Chatham main can cope with a 5 for most of the day but would suffer in the peaks. SDO wouldn't work because of the issues with junctions etc but the other big issue is Victoria itself.

There are 2 platforms that get used for the Orpy/Vic services that are limited to 8 any fleet changes would cause more restrictions into Victoria. Add in 10/12 scenarios and you lose even more platform space.

Running Dartford/Vic works with a 10 because it can provide an increase in capacity and because it typically runs platform 7/8 there isn't a major issue. Losing the Denmark Hill/Peckham/Nunhead stops from the service is a pain but when your just shovelling people out of Victoria then it can be beneficial.
A couple of pages ago, it was suggested that a new fleet that was a mix of 6 and 4 car trains would be ideal. That seems to be a good option for a full fleet replacement, as it would allow for 8, 10 and 12 car trains
 

Nicholas Lewis

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This is a pointless exercise. SWR got rid of them because its a small subfleet that requires a lot of effort and cost to keep in service. All DFT has done is pass burden onto someone else.
Surely a common sense approach would have been to order more to replace the networkers OR put them in with the 701's. Cut and shut a few of them to form 8 coach units and form a few as 4 coaches and youve then got an operational mini-fleet that can be driven by the same drivers, maintained by the same teams and expand the Thameslink service to new routes.
Yes but DofT is paying all the way round now so doesn't really matter anymore.

Most sensible course of action in the new joined up railway would have been to leave SWR with what it already has and moved 701's to SE to replace the networkers.
 

brad465

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Most sensible course of action in the new joined up railway would have been to leave SWR with what it already has and moved 701's to SE to replace the networkers.
In some ways that's sensible, but the nature of SE's metro routes is such that 701s would have to have lengths to support 12 car running (so 4 and/or 6 car rather than 5), and SWR was a new franchise award that could easily lead to a new fleet order; Southeastern's constant short term franchise extensions were/are not supportive of a whole new fleet that needed ordering, building and of a significant size to commit to long term.
 

Milo T.K

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Up to those standards? you mean down surely! the 700s/707s have one of the worst interiors for passengers!
I find them better than 376s since the seats are slightly more comfy on a 70x and AC is a thing on 70x than a 376. Also you don't have the trouble of people urinating on the seats and at least GTR changes them unlike SE since those do run into gangland aka kent.
 

43102EMR

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Up to those standards? you mean down surely! the 700s/707s have one of the worst interiors for passengers!
The 707 interior is very good IMO - much more comfortable and spacious than the 376 interiors…
 
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Thinking more about where the trains could be used... There are 30 units. Assuming they'll tend to be doubled up, that's 15 trains. I don't know what proportion of those would have to be undergoing maintenance at any one time, but I'm guessing, no more than 13 trains in service at any one time normally?

SouthEastern claim the 707s will run on the Dartford, Sevenoaks and Hayes lines. Quickly checking the timetable, it looks to me like you need 8 trains to run 4tph to Hayes, 4 trains to run 2tph to Sevenoaks, and 3 trains to run the 2tph to Orpington (if they count as the 'Sevenoaks' route). So if they were all going to be 707s, that's already more trains than are probably available - and I haven't yet even started counting the many more trains on the Dartford routes.

So I'm guessing we can rule out any route being given over entirely to 707s - which presumably means they'll just be mixed in with the existing units on various metro routes.



Oh sorry, that was a typo for 465, 466 and 376. Pretty bad typos lol. I'll fix my post.
Wimbledon regularly had 29 available for a requirement of 28
 

Mikey C

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I find them better than 376s since the seats are slightly more comfy on a 70x and AC is a thing on 70x than a 376. Also you don't have the trouble of people urinating on the seats and at least GTR changes them unlike SE since those do run into gangland aka kent.
The 376 seats are very thin, but at least they are sensibly spaced and sized so that a normal sized human can fit into them without sprawling into the gangway!
 

Milo T.K

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And they're a normal shape!
Although the seats are slightly thinner on a 707 they do feel comfy and decent size for a metro passenger. At least the 707 has air conditioning tho so no more heatstrokes hopefully
 

5920

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This is a pointless exercise. SWR got rid of them because its a small subfleet that requires a lot of effort and cost to keep in service. All DFT has done is pass burden onto someone else.
Surely a common sense approach would have been to order more to replace the networkers OR put them in with the 701's. Cut and shut a few of them to form 8 coach units and form a few as 4 coaches and youve then got an operational mini-fleet that can be driven by the same drivers, maintained by the same teams and expand the Thameslink service to new routes.
The Class 700 is set up differently - the formation of an 8 car is M-T-M-T-T-M-T-M, if you did the same for 707 it would be M-T-T-T-T-T-T-M leaving it underpowered as on the driving vehicles on 707 are motored.
 

Aictos

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Up to those standards? you mean down surely! the 700s/707s have one of the worst interiors for passengers!
That's your opinion, ask the majority of people who use the class 700s and the majority would say they're better then what came before them.
 

Goldfish62

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give them back please.
With apparently no prospect of the 701s entering service in the foreseeable future I think they'll be hanging around for some time yet. In fact, I'm surprised a fourth pair are moving to SE at this stage.
 

Class 466

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With apparently no prospect of the 701s entering service in the foreseeable future I think they'll be hanging around for some time yet. In fact, I'm surprised a fourth pair are moving to SE at this stage.
With SWR running a reduced timetable still, they can manage with losing some. Hence all the 2x2 456 + 455 formations now.

as the remaining units are subleased from SE to SWR, there will be an additional cost involved in that which I’m sure SWR are also keen to reduce!
 

brad465

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With apparently no prospect of the 701s entering service in the foreseeable future I think they'll be hanging around for some time yet. In fact, I'm surprised a fourth pair are moving to SE at this stage.
The debacle of 701s being introduced would certainly make the case for an interim Networker offload through 707s before the whole fleet is eventually replaced: the bulk of the fleet is already looking at going well beyond its 30th birthday, including the newest ones from 1994, and a full replacement fleet hasn't been ordered yet.
 

Goldfish62

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The debacle of 701s being introduced would certainly make the case for an interim Networker offload through 707s before the whole fleet is eventually replaced: the bulk of the fleet is already looking at going well beyond its 30th birthday, including the newest ones from 1994, and a full replacement fleet hasn't been ordered yet.
Electric units usually have a nominal life of 40 years so no hurry!
 

brad465

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Electric units usually have a nominal life of 40 years so no hurry!
I think technology and lack of care and/or intensive working is limiting this nowadays. This seems to be the case with the Networkers, but certainly applies to 332s (which only did 22 years) and most of the 373s. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the rolling stock introduced in the 00s still going doesn't make 40 if the pace of technology and/or desire for more of the latest technology continues to advance.
 
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