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Class 707 to Southeastern Dates

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Goldfish62

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I think technology and lack of care and/or intensive working is limiting this nowadays. This seems to be the case with the Networkers, but certainly applies to 332s (which only did 22 years) and most of the 373s. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the rolling stock introduced in the 00s still going doesn't make 40 if the pace of technology and/or desire for more of the latest technology continues to advance.
Although in danger of going OT it's generally considered that the 373s were withdrawn prematurely. The only reason they were scrapped is that Eurostar didn't want perfectly acceptable trains going to a competitor.

As for the 332s there have been many allegations about them being poorly maintained and they were in any case highly non-standard.

The Networkers have never been stunning performers, but they're still achieving better miles per technical incident (MTIN) than a lot of newer stock (707s excepted).
 
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supervc-10

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I dunno- there was a big jump in passenger experience in the late '90s/early '00s. I can't see the early Electrostars being phased out early, for example, unless some serious faults are found. There will always be smaller more isolated fleets which meet an untimely end, and the 332s are an example of this, and it wouldn't surprise me if small fleets like the 397s don't last their entire lifespan. However the big fleets of relatively standardised trains, like the Electrostars, Desiros, 80x, etc etc will probably all last for their full service lives for the most part.
 

Nogoohwell

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It would be really funny if all the 707's move over to SE, SWR network gets really busy, the 701's dont get accepted as planned and the Networks have to move over to SWR.
 

Mikey C

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I think technology and lack of care and/or intensive working is limiting this nowadays. This seems to be the case with the Networkers, but certainly applies to 332s (which only did 22 years) and most of the 373s. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the rolling stock introduced in the 00s still going doesn't make 40 if the pace of technology and/or desire for more of the latest technology continues to advance.
They're diesel units, so lacking the "out of date electronics" issues of the Networkers, but the 165s/66s are likely to be in service well beyond their 40th birthday

Also the 1996 stock on the Jubilee Line uses similar traction equipment to the GEC powered Networkers
 

brad465

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They're diesel units, so lacking the "out of date electronics" issues of the Networkers, but the 165s/66s are likely to be in service well beyond their 40th birthday

Also the 1996 stock on the Jubilee Line uses similar traction equipment to the GEC powered Networkers
I don't recall referring to any diesel units in my previous post, the 332s were the HEx stock and 373s the original Eurostar stock, which, along with the 465/66 Networkers and 707s, are all EMUs.

I agree though the Turbos seem to be bucking a lot of trends.
 

brad465

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It would be really funny if all the 707's move over to SE, SWR network gets really busy, the 701's dont get accepted as planned and the Networks have to move over to SWR.
I really doubt they'd resort to Networkers going to SWR in that instance. Were there an increase in demand for SE once more, means of trying to get the Networkers in store back to SE would be more likely, but I think for SWR they won't easily get 707s back, so they'd have to hope enough 701s can be rolled out to bridge a shortfall and hang on to 455s/456s for a bit longer.
 

Goldfish62

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I really doubt they'd resort to Networkers going to SWR in that instance. Were there an increase in demand for SE once more, means of trying to get the Networkers in store back to SE would be more likely, but I think for SWR they won't easily get 707s back, so they'd have to hope enough 701s can be rolled out to bridge a shortfall and hang on to 455s/456s for a bit longer.
Let's face it, the DfT is not going to agree to anything that leaves either operator short of rolling stock. SWR and SE are just service agents for the civil servants running (allegedly) the railways.
 

RealTrains07

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One of the big complaints from passengers is the lack of air con on Networkers. Should they be told "Sorry, you won’t have it for another 10 years because the trains can soldier on until then"?
Same issue as any other operator which has non air con trains.
 

Goldfish62

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One of the big complaints from passengers is the lack of air con on Networkers. Should they be told "Sorry, you won’t have it for another 10 years because the trains can soldier on until then"?
That's always been the given reason when people have complained about the lack of aircon on SW 455s so I don't see why it should be any different on SE.

I think you're getting a bit carried away. Nowhere has it been mentioned that the Networkers need replacing due to lack of aircon. If that was the main issue they could be retrofitted with air cooling.

The bottom line is the only reason some are being replaced now is to find a home for the 707s. It makes perfect sense to store some of them rather store the 707s. If the 707s stayed at SWR then no Networkers would be withdrawn.

I can see the rest of the Networker fleet soldiering on for many years yet. The new trains bonanza time fueled by suicidal franchise bids is over.
 

Mikey C

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One of the big complaints from passengers is the lack of air con on Networkers. Should they be told "Sorry, you won’t have it for another 10 years because the trains can soldier on until then"?
Which can be sorted, as with the Chiltern and GWR 165s which have had air conditioning cooling retrofitted

Indeed I imagine many Chiltern 165 users don't realise that they originally had opening windows!
 

Class465pacer

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Same issue as any other operator which has non air con trains.
Yep, and the solution is to replace them.
Nowhere has it been mentioned that the Networkers need replacing due to lack of aircon.
It’s just one of the examples.
Which can be sorted, as with the Chiltern and GWR 165s which have had air conditioning cooling retrofitted
Southeastern has previously stated on Twitter that aircon retrofitting on 465s won’t happen.
 

Mikey C

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Southeastern has previously stated on Twitter that aircon retrofitting on 465s won’t happen.
Frankly I don't believe Southeastern's tweet, saying that it's not possible to retrofit it. If Chiltern can do it with their 165s, or Renatus with their 321s, then I'd be staggered if Southeastern couldn't do something

In the same way, there's no technical reason why the SE 465s couldn't be refurbished to look a lot nicer inside

I entirely understand why they haven't done it, the farce with the franchise not being re-awarded etc, and indeed why it might make sense to replace them instead, but that's a different question...
 

CFRAIL

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That's always been the given reason when people have complained about the lack of aircon on SW 455s so I don't see why it should be any different on SE.

I think you're getting a bit carried away. Nowhere has it been mentioned that the Networkers need replacing due to lack of aircon. If that was the main issue they could be retrofitted with air cooling.

The bottom line is the only reason some are being replaced now is to find a home for the 707s. It makes perfect sense to store some of them rather store the 707s. If the 707s stayed at SWR then no Networkers would be withdrawn.

I can see the rest of the Networker fleet soldiering on for many years yet. The new trains bonanza time fueled by suicidal franchise bids is over.
I've been informed several times that networkers have at least 5 more years, but more likely 10 years.
 

Class 466

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Yep, and the solution is to replace them.

It’s just one of the examples.

Southeastern has previously stated on Twitter that aircon retrofitting on 465s won’t happen.
Replies on Twitter don’t constitute official statements. Of course they could retrofit aircon to them.
 

Bayum

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Yep, and the solution is to replace them.

It’s just one of the examples.

Southeastern has previously stated on Twitter that aircon retrofitting on 465s won’t happen.
Read ‘too expensive’ or no initiative to invest in stock.
 

Aictos

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Replies on Twitter don’t constitute official statements. Of course they could retrofit aircon to them.
They have also claimed on Twitter that they won't be retrofitting the toilets as they are unable to do so, this is despite the obvious fact that the class is a modular design and Siemens have I have been led to believe by posters here that it IS possible to refit toilets at some stage if required.
 

urpert

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Although in danger of going OT it's generally considered that the 373s were withdrawn prematurely. The only reason they were scrapped is that Eurostar didn't want perfectly acceptable trains going to a competitor.

As for the 332s there have been many allegations about them being poorly maintained and they were in any case highly non-standard.

The Networkers have never been stunning performers, but they're still achieving better miles per technical incident (MTIN) than a lot of newer stock (707s excepted).
TBF quite a few 373 power cars had daylight showing through the rust holes on the sides by the time they were withdrawn…
 

KC1

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That's your opinion, ask the majority of people who use the class 700s and the majority would say they're better then what came before them.

I’d happily take the 319s back. The 700s are a dull, soulless experience.
 

supervc-10

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It's a commuter train. I'll take dull and soulless but able to get on and not sweat out 5 litres on my journey home over a 'characterful' 319. The whole point of them is mass transit, which they do really well.
 

Goldfish62

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It's a commuter train. I'll take dull and soulless but able to get on and not sweat out 5 litres on my journey home over a 'characterful' 319. The whole point of them is mass transit, which they do really well.
Likewise.
 
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