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Class 707 to Southeastern Dates

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Mikey C

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Trouble is they will need to make their minds up soon, as the 465/2s are in the worst shape of them all so I'm told, and placing them into store won't help things...
They're only in bad shape because they've been allowed to disintegrate in service.

The 165s/166s have very similar bodies, and are in excellent condition, while the 465/9s were refurbished in the 2000s so again look better
And doesn't the Underground 96 stock use similar traction motors?
 
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Class 466

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They're only in bad shape because they've been allowed to disintegrate in service.

The 165s/166s have very similar bodies, and are in excellent condition, while the 465/9s were refurbished in the 2000s so again look better
And doesn't the Underground 96 stock use similar traction motors?
465/2/9s & 466s have entirely different bodies to 165/166s - which are similar to 465/0/1s (from BREL, York). The Met Cam units bodies were made in Spain (Maquinista) & Italy (by what became AnsaldoBreda) and then were put together in the UK - They're of a much poorer quality than the BREL Units.
 

brad465

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465/2/9s & 466s have entirely different bodies to 165/166s - which are similar to 465/0/1s (from BREL, York). The Met Cam units bodies were made in Spain (Maquinista) & Italy (by what became AnsaldoBreda) and then were put together in the UK - They're of a much poorer quality than the BREL Units.
Someone should tell the Government/DfT/TOCs this the next time they order products from abroad and disregard British manufacturing ;)
 

AM9

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Someone should tell the Government/DfT/TOCs this the next time they order products from abroad and disregard British manufacturing ;)
Maybe they did, which is why we got the Desiro Citys including the 707s that have worked well compared with the 'British' 701s. ;)

But that was a British manufacturer choosing to outsource production abroad.

In the USA, strict local content requirements for rolling stock lead to high costs and poor quality.
I rest my case. :rolleyes:
 

southern442

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And doesn't the Underground 96 stock use similar traction motors?
Yes, and from what I've heard, TfL have been looking for an excuse to bin them off for a while now because of reliability issues (although of course now that's unlikely to happen anytime soon).
 

Mikey C

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465/2/9s & 466s have entirely different bodies to 165/166s - which are similar to 465/0/1s (from BREL, York). The Met Cam units bodies were made in Spain (Maquinista) & Italy (by what became AnsaldoBreda) and then were put together in the UK - They're of a much poorer quality than the BREL Units.
True, though the not much younger Metro Cammell 1995 and 1996 stock tube trains also had their bodies made in Spain and fitted out in Birmingham, and they've lasted well enough
 

Andy Pacer

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Sorry if this has been asked already but I can't really go through all 1,268 messages...
Which, if any, class 707's are no longer with SWR?
 

JonathanH

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Sorry if this has been asked already but I can't really go through all 1,268 messages...
Which, if any, class 707's are no longer with SWR?
Easy enough to search back a page or two without going through all 1,268 messages.
SWR have 12 at the moment, 707014-024 & 707030. There looks to be diagrams for 5 pairs at the moment (10 units)
Jan 2022 MR is reporting that SWR are wanting to keep these 12 beyond their planned transfer to SE in Q1/22 due to ongoing issues with getting 701's into use.
The other 18, 707001-707013 / 707025-707029 are no longer with SWR
 

JaJaWa

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SWR retains 12 Class 707 trains in boost to fleet availability​


  • South Western Railway’s (SWR) Class 707 lease extended on 12 units until August 2022 to maximise the availability of carriages on suburban routes.
  • Alterations to the roll-out of the new Arterio trains had put pressure on SWR’s existing fleet prior to the outbreak of Omicron.
  • Short term measures, including the recruitment of additional engineers, have also been put in place to alleviate pressure once restrictions are eased and customer demand increases.
Class 707 trains are set to continue serving South Western Railway (SWR) customers until August 2022, helping to improve capacity on the network’s suburban routes.

12 out of 30 of SWR’s 707 fleet was due to move to the Southeastern network but, following an agreement signed between the two train companies, SWR’s lease on the units has been extended until August 2022.

The move is set to alleviate future pressure on SWR’s train capacity, which – prior to passenger numbers reducing as a result of Omicron - had been impacted by the altered Arterio introduction. SWR is waiting for manufacturer Alstom to supply a train that performs to specification and will deliver consistently better journeys for customers and colleagues. When they do, SWR will begin its extensive programme of testing, training and business mobilisation.

Pre-empting the Arterio introduction, SWR refrained from spending significant sums - at a time of significantly reduced passenger numbers - on overhauling trains which were due to be retired and replaced, resulting in pre-Omicron challenges around fleet availability and capacity.

As well as securing the Class 707s for longer and working closely with Alstom to roll-out the Arterios, SWR has taken further measures to maximise fleet availability in readiness for customers returning to the railway once restrictions are lifted, including:

  • The recruitment of additional engineers to increase the capacity of maintenance and safety programmes.
  • Control teams adapting the timetable to deliver available carriages to where they are most needed. This involves closely monitoring customer demand and changing the calling patterns on some services to relieve pressure at the busiest stations.
  • Reconfiguring existing train formations to provide more capacity on SWR’s suburban lines.
Commenting, SWR’s Managing Director Claire Mann said:

“Prior to the outbreak of the most recent coronavirus variant, the delay to the Arterio roll-out had created a challenging situation on parts of our network and I’d like to apologise to our customers and thank them for their patience during this testing time.

“I want to assure our customers that we have comprehensive short, medium and long-term plans in place to really get to grips with this challenge and protect customer journeys once people again return to the railway.

“Retaining the Class 707s is a key part of our medium-term approach, and I’d like to thank Southeastern for working with us in such a constructive way to support the wider interests of all railway users.

Southeastern Passenger Services Director, David Wornham said:

“This short lease extension won’t negatively affect our customers as we will be able to adjust our timetable as required to make sure we have enough capacity. We agreed to a small change in the transfer schedule as we understand the challenges SWR is facing and we want to help out. I look forward to introducing the remaining trains onto our busier metro routes in the summer when I hope passenger’ numbers will be closer to pre-pandemic levels.”

18 out of the 30 Class 707 trains have already transferred to Southeastern and they have been operating on the Grove Park, Hayes and Dartford routes since September 2021.
Source: https://www.southwesternrailway.com...ass-707-trains-in-boost-to-fleet-availability
 

fusionblue

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"SWR refrained from spending significant sums" - not to worry, Southeastern has been doing this with the metro fleet since probably the last time the franchise was in government ownership. You're in good company.
 

brad465

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"SWR refrained from spending significant sums" - not to worry, Southeastern has been doing this with the metro fleet since probably the last time the franchise was in government ownership. You're in good company.
Southeastern pre-OLR actually put some investment into the 707s in the form of the new vinyl and I believe changed the seat covers as well, but in the particular the PR campaign that led to them being called City Beam trains. Arguably the class with the least investment is the 376, which still has Connex livery and an interior that is more or less how it looked when introduced.
 

Mikey C

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Southeastern pre-OLR actually put some investment into the 707s in the form of the new vinyl and I believe changed the seat covers as well, but in the particular the PR campaign that led to them being called City Beam trains. Arguably the class with the least investment is the 376, which still has Connex livery and an interior that is more or less how it looked when introduced.
Which was ridiculous. Do nothing on the 376s and the bare minimum on the Networkers to pass the RVAR rules, but waste money on changing the nearly new seat covers on the 707s
 

Goldfish62

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"SWR refrained from spending significant sums" - not to worry, Southeastern has been doing this with the metro fleet since probably the last time the franchise was in government ownership. You're in good company.
What they're talking about is C6 overhauls which were never budgeted for because the fleet should have been scrapped by now.
 

43096

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What they're talking about is C6 overhauls which were never budgeted for because the fleet should have been scrapped by now.
Which rather suggests that SWR haven't been managing their contractor (Bombardier/Alstom) very well, or they would know the problems and have a contingency plan to life extend the existing fleet. Effectively they've winged it and got away with it because of Covid: if there'd been no pandemic they would be in serious trouble.
 

TRAX

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That's just as well!

A very honest press release. Leaves no one in any doubt that SWR are not happy with Alstom.
Alstom ? The company actually working (and managing) to solve the hundreds of issues with the 701s, something that Bombardier wasn’t able to do with their own trains ?
Hehe, easy bashing, aye ?
 

fgwrich

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Alstom ? The company actually working (and managing) to solve the hundreds of issues with the 701s, something that Bombardier wasn’t able to do with their own trains ?
Hehe, easy bashing, aye ?
Easy bashing, Yes. Justified, Yes. Alstom knew exactly what they were taking on, and aren't blame free in this. Poor quality control might have been a symptom that started under Bombardier, but given that a lot of these units are being constructed under Alstom and it is still happening, the magic wand of Alstom isn't fixing this overnight. How Rock Rail and SWR Haven't cancelled this order yet still amazes me, but with the way it's going, Alstom will be constructing these almost for free.
 

Goldfish62

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How Rock Rail and SWR Haven't cancelled this order yet still amazes me, but with the way it's going, Alstom will be constructing these almost for free.
They could only cancel the order with permission from the DfT. Can you imagine the political fallout given Alstom's role in HS2? Mind you, it could prove to be a convenient distraction for No. 10 in the current circumstances...
 

Horizon22

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They're only in bad shape because they've been allowed to disintegrate in service.

The 165s/166s have very similar bodies, and are in excellent condition, while the 465/9s were refurbished in the 2000s so again look better
And doesn't the Underground 96 stock use similar traction motors?

Partly because of the "last year of the franchise" for about 5 years now. I don't think any operator has protected their stock that well in the dying days of a franchise; it's cynical but often seems to be the truth.
 

brad465

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I discovered today that one of SE's 707s will be named after the late James Brokenshire, who was MP for Old Bexley and Sidcup:


A train has been named in honour of James Brokenshire, who campaigned for better services for passengers.
The MP, who represented Old Bexley and Sidcup in south-east London, died in October from lung cancer aged 53.
The City Beam train, made by Siemens Mobility, will be unveiled to rail minister Wendy Morton later on Monday.
His widow Catherine Brokenshire said: "James would have been delighted to have one of the 707 trains he campaigned for named after him."

A 707 class train, similar to the one pictured, bears James Brokenshire's name
The train will be operated by the Department for Transport's operator of last resort, which took over Southeastern after it was stripped of its franchise for failing to declare more than £25m in taxpayer funding.
Mrs Brokenshire has been calling for a national lung cancer screening programme to improve survival rates.
Her husband had never smoked, as is the case with about 15% of people who get lung cancer.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Easy bashing, Yes. Justified, Yes. Alstom knew exactly what they were taking on, and aren't blame free in this. Poor quality control might have been a symptom that started under Bombardier, but given that a lot of these units are being constructed under Alstom and it is still happening, the magic wand of Alstom isn't fixing this overnight. How Rock Rail and SWR Haven't cancelled this order yet still amazes me, but with the way it's going, Alstom will be constructing these almost for free.
So GA are happy to take poorly built units then?
 

Wolfie

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I discovered today that one of SE's 707s will be named after the late James Brokenshire, who was MP for Old Bexley and Sidcup:

Having met James Brokenshire through work l would say that he was a genuine public servant and this gesture is well merited. RIP.
 

swt_passenger

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Having met James Brokenshire through work l would say that he was a genuine public servant and this gesture is well merited. RIP.
Did he really “campaign for the 707s”, or just for general improvements to rolling stock in his area? I’d have thought the 707s were only ever a bit of a side issue for Southeastern…
 
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Wolfie

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Did he really “campaign for the 707s”, or just for general improvements to rolling stock in his area? I’d have thought the 807s were only ever a bit of a side issue for Southeastern…
I knew him through his Ministerial work. I somehow doubt that he was asking for particular rolling stock as opposed to general improvements l agree.
 

The_Train

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Are all the SE 707's now wearing the "CityBeam" livery and in active service?
 
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