Class 745 Stadler FLIRTs

[Domh245]

Only newest build date, as 379s are still just a type of Electrostars and they had been around since 2000, based on the 1990s Turbostar which the East had first for branches, Norwich-Basingstoke and then Cambridge-Norwich. When the West got 379s the East had the more moder modern design 360 Desiros. The 379s while good are a 20 year-old design bought by NXEA to replace 317s which were then considered too old at 20+ year old but are still here now.

That's a rather bizarre argument. Yes the Electrostar is a rather dated design* (I'm impressed you only stopped at turbostar, rather than continuing to trace the lineage back to the networkers), but there are only so many things you can do when it comes to a train, at least from a passenger perspective. The 360 is a notionally newer design, but they are both 4x 20m, doors at thirds, 100mph, air conditioned EMUs - they're not radically different to the passenger (apart from the seating and inter unit gangways) at which point the date they rolled out the factory does become the most relevant factor (though still comparatively irrelevant compared to things like reliability and performance)

*though the 379 was the second of the "gen 2" electrostar which began with the 378 and ended with the 387, a reasonable step up from the existing electrostars

 

[TheEdge]

Only newest build date, as 379s are still just a type of Electrostars and they had been around since 2000, based on the 1990s Turbostar which the East had first for branches, Norwich-Basingstoke and then Cambridge-Norwich. When the West got 379s the East had the more moder modern design 360 Desiros. The 379s while good are a 20 year-old design bought by NXEA

I mean that's quite the stretch. By that logic the 379 is pretty much the same age as the 745 as the original FLIRT that the 745 is based off is a 2004 design for SBB. And the 379s came into service in 2011 while the 360s were in service the mid noughties.

 

[Abbo]

Too many trains at the Norwich end if it runs through. The 18:00 Ipswich to Norwich comes off 16:32 ex LST and then forms 19:30 Norwich to Liv St vice 17:02 ex Liv S

 

[samuelmorris]

I mean that's quite the stretch. By that logic the 379 is pretty much the same age as the 745 as the original FLIRT that the 745 is based off is a 2004 design for SBB. And the 379s came into service in 2011 while the 360s were in service the mid noughties.

And also irrelevant. The difference between early privatisation era stock and late BR era stock is huge for only 8 or so years, yet the difference between the first of those units and the newest ones is a lot more subtle, in some cases the newer units are arguably worse, see 2017 387 seat comfort versus 2001 375s...

 

[Abbo]

So 720s will /might reach Norwich. Guess like the 321 Norwich crews will not learn them. Expect the passengers will enjoy the 'cosy seating

 

[dk1]

So 720s will /might reach Norwich. Guess like the 321 Norwich crews will not learn them. Expect the passengers will enjoy the 'cosy seating

There where plans for Norwich to sign 720s & in fact some started training. That’s all changed now & Norwich main line drivers will be 100% Stadler.

 

[Bikeman78]

definitely saw a 317 pulling into Cambridge North today

Yes there was a single 317 vice a pair of 379s all day yesterday. Same today. The availability of the 379s has been dire since last summer. A modern fleet ought to be able to cover 25 diagrams from 30 units. The Welsh Pacers did better than that! In reality they often only cover 23 diagrams with a pair of 317s standing in, so the older fleet then achieves better availability (22 from 27). If a 745 fails to turn out for Stansted Express then they really struggle to cover everything.

 

[Sleepy]

I quite enjoyed my short trip on a 720. It was more comfortable than a 321 and no rattling doors.

I was going to comment that it was disappointing that the first off peak service at 8:30 from Norwich hasn’t returned but the 8:03 arrives at LST dead on 10 in the timetable. That will now be the first off peak service.

The 0800 from Norwich became off peak to London before Covid.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Yes there was a single 317 vice a pair of 379s all day yesterday. Same today. The availability of the 379s has been dire since last summer. A modern fleet ought to be able to cover 25 diagrams from 30 units. The Welsh Pacers did better than that! In reality they often only cover 23 diagrams with a pair of 317s standing in, so the older fleet then achieves better availability (22 from 27). If a 745 fails to turn out for Stansted Express then they really struggle to cover everything.

Probably they have let them go in the same way they let the 360s go.

The 360s went from Golden Spanner to about a quarter MTIN in the space of a year.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

There where plans for Norwich to sign 720s & in fact some started training. That’s all changed now & Norwich main line drivers will be 100% Stadler.

I guess thats because 3tph isn't going to happen anytime soon, not that it was required but would have made some interesting stopping variations

 

[Bikeman78]

Probably they have let them go in the same way they let the 360s go.

The 360s went from Golden Spanner to about a quarter MTIN in the space of a year.

Yes the MTIN for the 379s has plummeted although the 317s at the same depot haven't really changed. The 379s have never recovered since that pair split in service near Harlow last August. The combined West Anglia fleet has to cover 45 diagrams from 57 units. By comparison Hornsey had to turn out 60 units from a mixed fleet of 65 and almost never failed.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Yes the MTIN for the 379s has plummeted although the 317s at the same depot haven't really changed. The 379s have never recovered since that pair split in service near Harlow last August. The combined West Anglia fleet has to cover 45 diagrams from 57 units. By comparison Hornsey had to turn out 60 units from a mixed fleet of 65 and almost never failed.

Some would argue that the 317s were let go a long while ago and there wasn't much further they could fall!

 

[dk1]

I guess thats because 3tph isn't going to happen anytime soon, not that it was required but would have made some interesting stopping variations

No nothing like that. It’s because common sense has prevailed & all Stadlers are now being concentrated on the GEML.

 

[F Great Eastern]

No nothing like that. It’s because common sense has prevailed & all Stadlers are now being concentrated on the GEML.

To be fair, I was pretty critical of Abellio's decisions in the past when it comes to fleet management, procurement and deployment and the fact they seemed overloaded with a mixture of bid managers and people with more of a background in planes with operational staff's word not being really took on board much.

But I have to admit there has been a sea change with how these things have been managed in the last 18 months or so and there's been a lot more common sense being used in general. Perhaps the appointments of a new COO and a new fleet director at group level in the last couple of years are really showing their worth now and show that Abellio have learned from their mistakes?

 

[dk1]

To be fair, I was pretty critical of Abellio's decisions in the past when it comes to fleet management, procurement and deployment and the fact they seemed overloaded with a mixture of bid managers and people with more of a background in planes with operational staff's word not being really took on board much.

But I have to admit there has been a sea change with how these things have been managed in the last 18 months or so and there's been a lot more common sense being used in general. Perhaps the appointments of a new COO and a new fleet director at group level in the last couple of years are really showing their worth now and show that Abellio have learned from their mistakes?

Onwards & upwards (fingers crossed).

 

[southern442]

Would you really not choose a 745 service over a 720 one if you had the choise?

Anyone with any sense would choose a 2+2 seated train over a 3+2 seated one.

Well,
Normally I would agree, and don't get me wrong I think the 745s are incredibly modern and great trains with some fantastic features, however having sat on both 720s and 745s for long distances, I think I slightly prefer the 720s. The 720s have quite a cosy feel to them and the seats are some of the best high-backed ones on the network at the moment.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Well,
Normally I would agree, and don't get me wrong I think the 745s are incredibly modern and great trains with some fantastic features, however having sat on both 720s and 745s for long distances, I think I slightly prefer the 720s. The 720s have quite a cosy feel to them and the seats are some of the best high-backed ones on the network at the moment.

Upper back part of the 745 where the seat starts to curve back in towards the upright isn't great, neither is the cantilever on the window side. Fix those two things and you've got a better seat. Wouldn't mind them being a few inches longer as well, but then again I'm 6ft3.

 

[samuelmorris]

I need to give the 745s another try whenever I get the chance. I really didn't get on with the seats the 20 minutes or so I sat in one. That said, I sat in two different ones that seemed very different in terms of firmness, which shouldn't have been the case for such a new unit, not sure what was going on there. They seemed to do the same thing the Renatus 321 seats do to me, i.e. give me backache (I have had a history of back problems but usually it takes 30+ minutes for them to take effect and does not affect other seats, e.g. the one in my car which I can sit in for hours with no ill effects). Conversely the 720 seating seemed totally fine. Not quite as soft as I might like still, but probably on a par with the Grammer seating I spoke so fondly of in the past, so they will do nicely.

To be fair, I was pretty critical of Abellio's decisions in the past when it comes to fleet management, procurement and deployment and the fact they seemed overloaded with a mixture of bid managers and people with more of a background in planes with operational staff's word not being really took on board much.

But I have to admit there has been a sea change with how these things have been managed in the last 18 months or so and there's been a lot more common sense being used in general. Perhaps the appointments of a new COO and a new fleet director at group level in the last couple of years are really showing their worth now and show that Abellio have learned from their mistakes?

This may be so, but, on a slight tangent, if that's true, how come the MTIN of the other fleets is falling off a cliff?

 

[southern442]

Upper back part of the 745 where the seat starts to curve back in towards the upright isn't great

That was exactly my problem in fact. After about 20 minutes it felt like the seat was digging in to my back. By contrast the minimalist (but not totally firm) design of the 720 seats plus the 2+3 layout means that on a quietish train you can sort of slump yourself over a few seats which feels much nicer.

 

[samuelmorris]

That was exactly my problem in fact. After about 20 minutes it felt like the seat was digging in to my back. By contrast the minimalist design of the 720 seats plus the 2+3 layout means that on a quietish train you can sort of slump yourself over a few seats which feels a little nicer.

Not tried slumping over multiple seats but yeah I felt the same. It seemed like the curved back of the seat was perhaps a bit too aggressive. Annoyingly the ergonomics of the Fainsa seats I actually find to be fine, it's just the total absence of padding in the base (and to a lesser extent the back) that make them uncomfortable. A Fainsa esque seat with a base like the LEAN would be almost perfect, but then again that's what the Kiel seat is, pretty much. The only letdown comfort-wise is the legroom intrusion and the 3+2. Theoretically the 2+2s on the 730s should be excellent.

 

[F Great Eastern]

That was exactly my problem in fact. After about 20 minutes it felt like the seat was digging in to my back. By contrast the minimalist (but not totally firm) design of the 720 seats plus the 2+3 layout means that on a quietish train you can sort of slump yourself over a few seats which feels much nicer.

Just feels a bit hard, even to the touch, not a lot of padding there compared to the rest of the seat. Although at the end of the day, the seat is named the LEAN for a reason. It was designed to be thin as possible for high density layouts, the only difference is that GA specified more padding at the base and a better headrest and not ultra high density layout. Think it's base design characteristics are showing here.

I mean it's tolerable for me from Ipswich to London, it's not terrible, but I wouldn't want to be on it for much longer than that ideally. Is it any worse in standard than First? The only real long trips I've been on a train on one of them to London have been First Class as it's been dirt cheap recently. The standard class journeys I've been on have tended to be shorter hops and 755s on the regionals.

Haven't sampled a 720 yet for more than 10 minutes or so, so can't judge them yet. Agree about the FAINSA though.

This may be so, but, on a slight tangent, if that's true, how come the MTIN of the other fleets is falling off a cliff?

Which fleets are we talking about? The other Abellio fleets or the older GA stock?

 

[samuelmorris]

Just feels a bit hard, even to the touch, not a lot of padding there compared to the rest of the seat. Although at the end of the day, the seat is named the LEAN for a reason. It was designed to be thin as possible for high density layouts, the only difference is that GA specified more padding at the base and a better headrest and not ultra high density layout. Think it's base design characteristics are showing here.

I mean it's tolerable for me from Ipswich to London, it's not terrible, but I wouldn't want to be on it for much longer than that ideally. Is it any worse in standard than First? The only real long trips I've been on a train on one of them to London have been First Class as it's been dirt cheap recently. The standard class journeys I've been on have tended to be shorter hops and 755s on the regionals.

Haven't sampled a 720 yet for more than 10 minutes or so, so can't judge them yet. Agree about the FAINSA though.



Which fleets are we talking about? The other Abellio fleets or the older GA stock?

The older GA stock, 360s (prior to their withdrawal) and 379s especially.

 

[amwells]

Yes the MTIN for the 379s has plummeted although the 317s at the same depot haven't really changed. The 379s have never recovered since that pair split in service near Harlow last August.

Apologies for the tangent, but on this point, does anyone please know what’s happening to 379011? Doesn’t seem to have been out for a very long time

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

That was exactly my problem in fact. After about 20 minutes it felt like the seat was digging in to my back. By contrast the minimalist (but not totally firm) design of the 720 seats plus the 2+3 layout means that on a quietish train you can sort of slump yourself over a few seats which feels much nicer.

Agreed.