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Class 745 Stadler FLIRTs

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samuelmorris

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Realistically they are only going to be able to get 16 or 17 units out in service though so perhaps 12 for Norwich (ie 10 on the main cycle and two peak only) and 4 or 5 for other routes
Yeah I more meant from a technical standpoint. In practice of course there'll be deductions for maintenance etc.
 
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JonathanH

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Yeah I more meant from a technical standpoint. In practice of course there'll be deductions for maintenance etc.
Yes, but even then the split needs more than 10 units guaranteed for Norwich so the allocation for anything else is constrained.
 

ashkeba

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Oh yes. Ipswich/Clacton terminators will have 745s allocated.
I think stealing them for Clactons will be seen as a bigger insult in Cambridge and Stansted than using them on just the mainline to Norwich or Ipswich.
 

43096

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I think stealing them for Clactons will be seen as a bigger insult in Cambridge and Stansted than using them on just the mainline to Norwich or Ipswich.
Why in Cambridge? They have never been diagrammed to go there!
 

cambsy

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Having been On the the 745’s, and seen their performance, i think if the Norwich in 90 runs come back, they could be done in 80 mins, if running late etc, with hard nosed legal running, and greens pretty much all the way, it would need London-Ipswich in 49 mins, 2 minute stop, then on to Norwich in 29 mins, think this could be a nice little challenge for DK1 to try achieve , I’d like know what Rail Perf thinks it could be done in?.
 

Class 170101

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Having been On the the 745’s, and seen their performance, i think if the Norwich in 90 runs come back, they could be done in 80 mins, if running late etc, with hard nosed legal running, and greens pretty much all the way, it would need London-Ipswich in 49 mins, 2 minute stop, then on to Norwich in 29 mins, think this could be a nice little challenge for DK1 to try achieve , I’d like know what Rail Perf thinks it could be done in?.

[6] between Norwich and Liverpool Street so you are there by 6 minutes.
 

dk1

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I think stealing them for Clactons will be seen as a bigger insult in Cambridge and Stansted than using them on just the mainline to Norwich or Ipswich.
Hopefully those good folk wont take it as personal :D it was simply a bad decision in the first place. I don’t think there where any plans for them to visit Cambridge so they shouldn’t worry.

Having been On the the 745’s, and seen their performance, i think if the Norwich in 90 runs come back, they could be done in 80 mins, if running late etc, with hard nosed legal running, and greens pretty much all the way, it would need London-Ipswich in 49 mins, 2 minute stop, then on to Norwich in 29 mins, think this could be a nice little challenge for DK1 to try achieve , I’d like know what Rail Perf thinks it could be done in?.
Would be a piece of cake. Hopefully back soon as the 08:00 & 09:00 up, 17:00 & 19:00 down.
 
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Bikeman78

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Would be a piece of cake. Hopefully back soon as the 08:00 & 09:00 up, 17:00 & 19:00 down.
The class 90s did it in 86 minutes a few times. I expect a 321 could manage the same so 80 minutes for a 745 doesn't sound too challenging.
 

dk1

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The class 90s did it in 86 minutes a few times. I expect a 321 could manage the same so 80 minutes for a 745 doesn't sound too challenging.
Absolutely. Shame about all the other traffic on the GEML that gets in the way & spoils things.
 

Bikeman78

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Absolutely. Shame about all the other traffic on the GEML that gets in the way & spoils things.
The annoying thing is that the 321s could have their schedules tightened up slightly. Typically down trains will be waiting three minutes at Shenfield, two or three at Witham and again at Colchester. The modest journey time improvements proposed in the timetable consultation could probably be achieved with 321s, never mind the new trains.
 

Class 170101

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Both Shenfield and Witham have [1] each preceeding the stations in the timetable so will appear wait longer if there are no speed restrictions.
 

dk1

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If they had any sense then you’d probable advertise a certain proportion of the Norwich services with a “hot food buffet” and have (say) five 745/0 diagrams to resource them. The rest of the Norwichs and whatever Ipswich/Clacton services have 745s would be resourced from the 15 remaining units. That way there’s a much better chance of actually getting a buffet unit on a buffet diagram.
You’d still never keep the right trains on the right diagrams. Step ups & set swaps will always put pay to that & always has done. Best to keep it as it is & at least provide a trolley.
 

ashkeba

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Why in Cambridge? They have never been diagrammed to go there!
People hoped we would see them eventually, as we had seen previous stanstedexpress branded stock. I think I saw some local politician sounding off in the news about how great it was Cambridge might again see real intercity-looking trains at least at peak. Of course they did not know it all and maybe forgot that Anglia is run mainly for the benefit of the GEML but hopes were raised.
 

dk1

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People hoped we would see them eventually, as we had seen previous stanstedexpress branded stock. I think I saw some local politician sounding off in the news about how great it was Cambridge might again see real intercity-looking trains at least at peak. Of course they did not know it all and maybe forgot that Anglia is run mainly for the benefit of the GEML but hopes were raised.
I think you are confusing the use of 745s with the one time plan that 800 series Hitachis where going to operate Kings X to Kings Lynn GN services.
 

43096

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People hoped we would see them eventually, as we had seen previous stanstedexpress branded stock. I think I saw some local politician sounding off in the news about how great it was Cambridge might again see real intercity-looking trains at least at peak. Of course they did not know it all and maybe forgot that Anglia is run mainly for the benefit of the GEML but hopes were raised.
It was never going to happen. The plan was always for the 745s to do the Stansted - and only the Stansteds - on the west side. Besides, you do have intercity-looking trains in Cambridge: they're on the Norwich and Ipswich services.
 

CBlue

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People hoped we would see them eventually, as we had seen previous stanstedexpress branded stock. I think I saw some local politician sounding off in the news about how great it was Cambridge might again see real intercity-looking trains at least at peak. Of course they did not know it all and maybe forgot that Anglia is run mainly for the benefit of the GEML but hopes were raised.


I don't get this fascination some posters have with turning a slightly backwater commuter trundle from Cambridge to Liverpool Street into some kind of pseudo-deluxe long distance service. What market is that intended to serve? The 317s are arthritic and falling apart but don't pretend that it warrants anything plusher than a 720. A 745 wouldn't cope too well on peak runs due to the door layout, no?

Most travellers from Cambridge to London get the non-stop services to Kings Cross anyway simply due to faster journey times.
 

47421

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the large commuter market from Whittlesford and Audley End has enjoyed nice 379s for over 10 years - 2 of the 3 fast 12car peak services were always SRO from Stortford
 

Sean Emmett

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Maybe get a Norwich - Stansted train and change for the airport fast to London. When I did this in Feb 2020, during a GEML closure, tickets were valid this way.

Plenty of pax detrained at Cambridge North and Cambridge for the direct London train, but a few stayed on the 745 to Stansted for the connection there.

OK the direct train from Cambridge North got ahead whilst we were savouring the delights of Stansted, but we followed it in all the way in from Stortford, and saw the huge crowds disgourging from it at Liverpool St, whilst we had enjoyed relative comfort - and a seat.
 

Railperf

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The class 90s did it in 86 minutes a few times. I expect a 321 could manage the same so 80 minutes for a 745 doesn't sound too challenging.
Around 52 mins Liverpool Street to Ipswich and 32 minutes From Ipswich to Norwich seem to be times to aim for plus recovery and dwells.
I'm not sure 49 mins (Liverpool St to Ipswich) and V.V can be realistically be achieved reliably or timetabled without further infrastructure improvements to increase speeds and improve the pathing of trains through the various junctions.

Certainly a start-to stop run of under 49 minutes IS achievable with a clear run and NO TSR's.

Would a TOC try to timetable that - especially on the Up line - unless the trains following it off the branches can be timetabled much more than 3 mins behind it. Ideally 5 to 10 mins would be ideal. Otherwise, any delay to the Nin90 could result in signallers allowing the GE stopping services out in front to keep them to time - especially as the bulk of revenue comes from GE commuter trains.

One difficulty on up runs is keeping any GE traffic far enough ahead in the Stratford area so that the Norwich service can sail through on greens. The standard 3 min headways are an issue as most services are allowed close to 15 mins start to stop between Shenfield and Stratford where the pass to pass time is nearer 12 mins. That suggests any train stopping at Stratford needs to be at least 4.5 to 5 mins ahead. Personally, i think the Nin90 should all stop at Stratford due to the vast array of connections there and more efficient use of the available paths.

Current Class 321 sectional running times seem slower than what the 321's can achieve, but experience suggests many of these are in worsening mechanical condition and struggling to make up time when there are delays. The now departed Class 360's were fabulous at regaining lost time.
The Sunday running seems to prove that reliability and speed can only be achieved on the GEML with far fewer trains running.

As for Class 321 vs Class 90, the 321's start away from stations a bit quicker, but the 90's reel them in over 60mph - in essence not much to choose acceleration wise, but 321's brakes are superior. And the 321's start and top better in the wet.
 
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cambsy

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Railperf, what do you think London-Norwich, on a Norwich in 90 run be done in, with a perfect run and hard nosed driving? And if running like the current 86 record, was allowed what’ could it be done in with a 745? I think as you said a timetable recast, and line speed increases would be needed to reliably bring London to Norwich to under 90 mins.
 

Wivenswold

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I think stealing them for Clactons will be seen as a bigger insult in Cambridge and Stansted than using them on just the mainline to Norwich or Ipswich.
Cambridge can be snobbish about us good people on the Clacton branch. We don't care. We'll be lording-it into work on a 745.
Enjoy your 700s.
 

ashkeba

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Cambridge can be snobbish about us good people on the Clacton branch. We don't care. We'll be lording-it into work on a 745.
Enjoy your 700s.
Not snobbish. Just the ongoing wish that a city arguably bigger than Norwich (and more populous than the whole Clacton district) gets services as good.

I think you were lording it on 360s when we were stuck on grubby 317s which was slightly worse than if you get the 745 intercities on a commuter route while we're stuck with 720 and 700 commuter stock on a route between two cities.
 

RailWonderer

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Not snobbish. Just the ongoing wish that a city arguably bigger than Norwich (and more populous than the whole Clacton district) gets services as good.

I think you were lording it on 360s when we were stuck on grubby 317s which was slightly worse than if you get the 745 intercities on a commuter route while we're stuck with 720 and 700 commuter stock on a route between two cities.
Goes back to the BR era when Cambridge - KX was always a regional express route ran by NSE using 365s rather than the Norwich which was ran by the IC MkII stock. Thameslink GN like all ToCs wanted a more uniform fleet rather than subfleets for a specific route and the plan for IETs to run the King's Lynn - KX were quickly shelved, also because overengineered 125mph bi modes were inappropriate for an all overhead AC 100mph route.

I have used the 387s on the cruisers several times and they more than suffice for that route for all but the passengers going all the way to Kings Lynn. That said, 379s with more cushioned seats and one of the UK's best first class seating areas should definitely replace them. And to say we on the GE were 'lording it' on 360s is an overstatement. Most diagrams were 321 operated, and it was no secret how badly those trains aged, there were only enough 360s for a handful of diagrams each day.
 

43096

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Not snobbish. Just the ongoing wish that a city arguably bigger than Norwich (and more populous than the whole Clacton district) gets services as good.

I think you were lording it on 360s when we were stuck on grubby 317s which was slightly worse than if you get the 745 intercities on a commuter route while we're stuck with 720 and 700 commuter stock on a route between two cities.
Which conveniently ignores that the primary Cambridge-London service is to King’s Cross using 387s. It also ignores that 379s are also common in Cambridge.
 

Paul Jones 88

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Liverpool Street - Cambridge - King's Lynn used to be an Inter City route with class 47s and 37s pulling rakes of comfortable MK2 coaching stock, the consist often included a buffet car.
These had been taken away by about 1991 and we had suburban rolling stock doing all services, the long distance trains should have been replaced by an overhead line version of Class 442s with a view to actually improve over the previous services as opposed to the downgraded services that have existed ever since.
 

Alfie1014

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Liverpool Street - Cambridge - King's Lynn used to be an Inter City route with class 47s and 37s pulling rakes of comfortable MK2 coaching stock, the consist often included a buffet car.
These had been taken away by about 1991 and we had suburban rolling stock doing all services, the long distance trains should have been replaced by an overhead line version of Class 442s with a view to actually improve over the previous services as opposed to the downgraded services that have existed ever since.
You could say the same about the Clacton service with cl 309s which were BRs AC mainline EMU with griddle cars etc. They were intended to be the train type for Kings Cross to Leeds and York services if the ECML had been electrified in the 1960s. Getting back to Cambridge services once the full route via Royston was wired and journey times reduced it became the de facto primary service compared to the slower GE route. I always had a fantasy that instead of scrapping the APT-Ps in the 1980s that they could have been repurposed and put on Liv St - Cambridge services!
 

Railperf

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Railperf, what do you think London-Norwich, on a Norwich in 90 run be done in, with a perfect run and hard nosed driving? And if running like the current 86 record, was allowed what’ could it be done in with a 745? I think as you said a timetable recast, and line speed increases would be needed to reliably bring London to Norwich to under 90 mins.
It looks like a time under 80 mins could be achieved non-stop at 100mph maximum. A lot of the additional allowances added into the current schedule allow for delays to be absorbed. The route south of Colchester is a huge bottleneck with a big difference in journey times between fastest and slowest trains plus freight that can be joining the GEML late off the North London Line. Personally I don't see the difference between 90 mins with one stop or 100 mins with 2 or 3 stops.. The additional stops aid connectivity. For people living in East London, the ability to join or leave the train at Stratford offers better overall journey times and I would like to see all Norwich services stop there. No point in 90 mins Norwich to Liverpool Street when you have to lose time to get back to Stratford for another connecting service.
 

Wyrleybart

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You could say the same about the Clacton service with cl 309s which were BRs AC mainline EMU with griddle cars etc. They were intended to be the train type for Kings Cross to Leeds and York services if the ECML had been electrified in the 1960s.
And for the Euston - Birmingham - Wolverhampton bofore 86s and Mk2 stock were chosen instead
 

Grumbler

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It looks like a time under 80 mins could be achieved non-stop at 100mph maximum. A lot of the additional allowances added into the current schedule allow for delays to be absorbed. The route south of Colchester is a huge bottleneck with a big difference in journey times between fastest and slowest trains plus freight that can be joining the GEML late off the North London Line. Personally I don't see the difference between 90 mins with one stop or 100 mins with 2 or 3 stops.. The additional stops aid connectivity. For people living in East London, the ability to join or leave the train at Stratford offers better overall journey times and I would like to see all Norwich services stop there. No point in 90 mins Norwich to Liverpool Street when you have to lose time to get back to Stratford for another connecting service.
I quite agree about the importance of connectivity, all trains should stop at Stratford and the NINO concept should be dropped. If three trains an hour ever materialise then perhaps the fastest could omit Diss and / or Manningtree (which will still have two trains an hour), and perhaps the slowest could serve Needham Market as well?
 

Railperf

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Liverpool Street - Cambridge - King's Lynn used to be an Inter City route with class 47s and 37s pulling rakes of comfortable MK2 coaching stock, the consist often included a buffet car.
These had been taken away by about 1991 and we had suburban rolling stock doing all services, the long distance trains should have been replaced by an overhead line version of Class 442s with a view to actually improve over the previous services as opposed to the downgraded services that have existed ever since.
To be fair I have used the modern day Cambridge service and the 379s are a decent train for that journey. I would rather be on that than any mark 2. Most people pack a drink and snack before they go. There are coffee shops at the larger stations to buy before you board.
I would have like to see 745s run through to Cambridge via Stansted but possibly the single lead Stansted North Junction limits that?
 
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