Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[AM9]

Yes. (copy GWML and ECML practice)
The older lower tension systems run into contact wire oscillation issues at lower speeds than (modern) higher wire tension systems. min 75m pan spacing with modern B+W pantograph and older OHLE will get you to 100mph (sometimes 110mph) but above that you have to make changes.
Greater the distance between pans reduces issues and higher wire tension reduces issues.
the 804 configuration will give about 198.5m spacing but only 102.5 or 120m depending on unit orientation if they were positioned mid-unit.

I have a feint memory of someone here posting that the OLE on the MML being reinforced in order that EMT (now EMR) trains could run at 125mph where the line speed allows. This had been started by replacing the most troublesome headspans south of St Albans.
I could be wrong of course.

 

[hwl]

I have a feint memory of someone here posting that the OLE on the MML being reinforced in order that EMT (now EMR) trains could run at 125mph where the line speed allows. This had been started by replacing the most troublesome headspans south of St Albans.
I could be wrong of course.

Yep (and possibly by me) upgrades included in MML electrification but always better to go for belt, braces and elastic especially with lots of extra trains using OHLE especially headspans.
Replacing deadweight tensioning before too many more bouts of hot weather would be good too.

 

[greatvoyager]

Would 804s have the Yellow Warning panel on the front of the train, or will the headlights allow for this to be left off?

 

[Energy]

Would 804s have the Yellow Warning panel on the front of the train, or will the headlights allow for this to be left off?

The TPE and Hull Trains 802s have black fronts but I believe the operator has too apply or non yellow fronts.

 

[greatvoyager]

The TPE and Hull Trains 802s have black fronts but I believe the operator has too apply or non yellow fronts.

From the impression image they used with the AT300 in EMR livery, the panel was yellow, so I guess this won't have changed.

 

[InTheEastMids]

There was a lot of talk on the forum about the performance on diesel in comparison with 222s, and of course the 804 gets another engine over other 80x to address that.

What about performance under the wires? Mindful of the big Dec 2020 timetable recast that EMR are consulting on, will full introduction of 804s lead to any time savings at all in 2023?

Are there 22x / 80x comparisons available? Eg ECML North of York?

 

[Nym]

Would most likely be a trolley, Like all other 80X including the upcoming Hull Trains so far are buffet-less units apart from LNER which would be no suprise as many TOC's have been ditching buffet in favour for trolley or non catering at all in recent years.


They will have a redesign nose as Hitachi claims it will be a evolution (or you can call it a facelift).

Pretty keen to know as a 5 car with four engines where would the pantograph be located? on the middle car?

As discussed below, pantographs and transformers do not need to be on the same car, indeed the Class 390 proves this quite nicely having either 2 or 3 transformers, all on different cars, run form one pantograph.

But then too close to adjacent pantographs at high speed! Ideally 1st and 10th cars on doubled up units to deal with oscillation issues.
There is an HV bus on the roof hence the pantograph and transformer don't have to be on the same vehicle.

The rest of the 80x family have pantographs on both end vehicles of the units... they already operate 1st & 10th car pans and it doesn't matter which way round they are.
In the middle isn't OK for more problematic lower tension OHLE installations at high speed*. They have to be further apart.

*E.g. south of Bedford

Testing has been done on the ECML with "Intermediate Spacing" where the pantographs are raised on 1 and 6 or 5 and 10, it wasn't an issue running up to 125mph. Including significant lengths of headspan sections.

 

[PG]

It does seem odd. But at least they can join LNER and GWR with the. “Only formed of 5 coaches”. Or catering is only in the front 5.
TOCs putting customers first again. (Although some will split en route)

Or...
"Tickets will only be inspected in the rear 5 coaches"

 

[Meerkat]

Any chance of putting the operator in the thread title please, for those of us (me) who can’t remember which class number is which?

 

[hwl]

Testing has been done on the ECML with "Intermediate Spacing" where the pantographs are raised on 1 and 6 or 5 and 10, it wasn't an issue running up to 125mph. Including significant lengths of headspan sections.

Excellent. The intermediate spacing is theoretically at the lower end of the should be OK range but always a good idea to check.
What that doesn't of course measure is the long term effects e.g. dropper fatigue

 

[notadriver]

There was a lot of talk on the forum about the performance on diesel in comparison with 222s, and of course the 804 gets another engine over other 80x to address that.

What about performance under the wires? Mindful of the big Dec 2020 timetable recast that EMR are consulting on, will full introduction of 804s lead to any time savings at all in 2023?

Are there 22x / 80x comparisons available? Eg ECML North of York?

I don’t believe an extra engine will provide a match in performance with 222 on diesel power. Every 222 vehicle is powered whereas only 4/5 of an 804 will be powered and it will be heavier due to the transformer equipment.

Enhanced 800s and 802s demonstrate their superiority both in acceleration from a stand and above 100 mph in electric mode compared with 22x.

 

[greatvoyager]

I don’t believe an extra engine will provide a match in performance with 222 on diesel power. Every 222 vehicle is powered whereas only 4/5 of an 804 will be powered and it will be heavier due to the transformer equipment.

Enhanced 800s and 802s demonstrate their superiority both in acceleration from a stand and above 100 mph in electric mode compared with 22x.

Don't 802 units have more powerful engines if 940hp opposed to 750hp?

 

[notadriver]

Don't 802 units have more powerful engines if 940hp opposed to 750hp?

That’s correct.

 

[greatvoyager]

That’s correct.

Thank you. I assume that the higher power will offset having less engine.

 

[notadriver]

Thank you. I assume that the higher power will offset having less engine.

As I said in my original post I don’t think the addition of an extra engine will give 804s the ability to match current diesel 222 timings.

 

[greatvoyager]

As I said in my original post I don’t think the addition of an extra engine will give 804s the ability to match current diesel 222 timings.

Although in total, a 5-car 804 will produce 3760hp compared to 3750hp for a 5-car 222, so it is 10hp more powerful with one less engine. I guess it depends on the total weight.

 

[Domh245]

Although in total, a 5-car 804 will produce 3760hp compared to 3750hp for a 5-car 222, so it is 10hp more powerful with one less engine. I guess it depends on the total weight.

Given the 804s will be aluminium vs the 222s steel construction, I would think they'll be fairly well matched

 

[gingertom]

Given the 804s will be aluminium vs the 222s steel construction, I would think they'll be fairly well matched

I agree. I think we will be pleasantly surprised. On electric with 4 powered vehicles the performance will be comparable to a 395, unless it is tweaked in software.

 

[greatvoyager]

I agree. I think we will be pleasantly surprised. On electric with 4 powered vehicles the performance will be comparable to a 395, unless it is tweaked in software.

Also, as the vehicles are shorter than 802s, that probably makes them lighter too, which could also boost performance.

 

[greatvoyager]

If vehicles are going to be 2m shorter than current 80x vehicles, I would estimate that there would be one less window area per carriage?

 

[Murray J]

I'd say that sounds about right, which i'd say translates to one less row of seats per carriage, not sure how many seats per row on an 80x but I'd say 4 or 5.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

That'll be two rows fewer as most IET stock seems to have 2 rows of seats per window?

It'll be 4 seats if it's one row and 8 seats if it's two rows as the arrangement is 2+2.

 

[greatvoyager]

That'll be two rows fewer as most IET stock seems to have 2 rows of seats per window?

It'll be 4 seats if it's one row and 8 seats if it's two rows as the arrangement is 2+2.

I wonder if they will have a similar layout, or offer one that crams more seats in to make up for the shorter vehicles.

 

[greatvoyager]

Will 804s have a composite coach, like other 5 car 80x units (and, coming to think of it, the meridians)? There could be a change in ratio of standard and first class seats.

 

[irish_rail]

I don’t believe an extra engine will provide a match in performance with 222 on diesel power. Every 222 vehicle is powered whereas only 4/5 of an 804 will be powered and it will be heavier due to the transformer equipment.

Enhanced 800s and 802s demonstrate their superiority both in acceleration from a stand and above 100 mph in electric mode compared with 22x.

I think you will be surprised. An unmuzzled set with all engines running goes like sh*t off a shovel

 

[Jozhua]

I wonder if they will have a similar layout, or offer one that crams more seats in to make up for the shorter vehicles.

Hopefully not, they'll be fitted with rock hard seats again doubtlessly, so it would be nice to at least have some decent legroom

 

[Rob F]

Do we know for certain that traction motors will be on four coaches? Could four engines provide power for three powered coaches via a power bus?

 

[Jozhua]

Do we know for certain that traction motors will be on four coaches? Could four engines provide power for three powered coaches via a power bus?

I'd assume motors would be on all five coaches?

 

[notadriver]

I'd assume motors would be on all five coaches?

I think you will be surprised. An unmuzzled set with all engines running goes like sh*t off a shovel

Which class unmuzzled ?

 

[notadriver]

Do we know for certain that traction motors will be on four coaches? Could four engines provide power for three powered coaches via a power bus?

That would seem logical as when under electric power the motors are fed via the same intercarriage power line bus.