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Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

edwin_m

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The 802's reach 119mph with appx 8.5hp/t - so an 810 with close to 11hp/t should do more than that.
What is interesting here is how HST's and Class 802's with similar power to weight ratios differ in performance. The 802's start off the line much faster in diesel mode, but peter out more quickly - reaching around 119mph on level track - whereas HST's still motor on to 125mph and beyond. Back in the early days - HST speeds around 133 to 136mph were commonly recorded before speed limiters were fitted.
I wonder whether the Class 800/802's seemingly inferior 'ploughed field' roof aerodynamics are a factor here?
To do with the 802 having more of its weight on powered axles?
 
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hexagon789

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The 802's reach 119mph with appx 8.5hp/t - so an 810 with close to 11hp/t should do more than that.
What is interesting here is how HST's and Class 802's with similar power to weight ratios differ in performance. The 802's start off the line much faster in diesel mode, but peter out more quickly - reaching around 119mph on level track - whereas HST's still motor on to 125mph and beyond. Back in the early days - HST speeds around 133 to 136mph were commonly recorded before speed limiters were fitted.
I wonder whether the Class 800/802's seemingly inferior 'ploughed field' roof aerodynamics are a factor here?
Isn't it to do with the way the power ramps back at speeds? While HSTs simply have natural motor current drop off.
 

Railperf

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Isn't it to do with the way the power ramps back at speeds? While HSTs simply have natural motor current drop off.
Possibly. It really depends to what poercentage of power is being demanded at those higher speeds. Figures of around 85% have been banded around.
So assuming the maximum electrical power for traction is around 80 to 85% of the maximum rated diesel output, then we are talking about around 85% of that figure. I'll ask our technical guru.
 

hexagon789

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Possibly. It really depends to what poercentage of power is being demanded at those higher speeds. Figures of around 85% have been banded around.
So assuming the maximum electrical power for traction is around 80 to 85% of the maximum rated diesel output, then we are talking about around 85% of that figure. I'll ask our technical guru.
I'd certainly be interested to know
 

Prestige15

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For those who may not know reguarding about the locations of the engines, pantograph etc and interior.

According to Modern Railway (870) It was stated that each unit will have two pantograph at each end of the driving vehicle, Diesel engines on first, second, fourth and fifth vehicle, Transformer at the centre and traction motors on the second and forth vehicle.

For the interior 3 full standard class, one roughly half and half and obviosly one first with a galley kitchen which will be the same size as TPE/Hull Trains 's galley. There will be NO BUFFET on these units. Each will have 301 seats (254 standerd and 47 first).
 

hwl

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For those who may not know reguarding about the locations of the engines, pantograph etc and interior.

According to Modern Railway (870) It was stated that each unit will have two pantograph at each end of the driving vehicle, Diesel engines on first, second, fourth and fifth vehicle, Transformer at the centre and traction motors on the second and forth vehicle.

For the interior 3 full standard class, one roughly half and half and obviosly one first with a galley kitchen which will be the same size as TPE/Hull Trains 's galley. There will be NO BUFFET on these units. Each will have 301 seats (254 standerd and 47 first).
MR article already covered on pages 29 & 30 of this thread.

Possibly. It really depends to what percentage of power is being demanded at those higher speeds. Figures of around 85% have been banded around.
So assuming the maximum electrical power for traction is around 80 to 85% of the maximum rated diesel output, then we are talking about around 85% of that figure. I'll ask our technical guru.
I'd go for 90% unless the aux loads are all at maxed out at the same time (unlikely) when that would drop a bit.
 
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swt_passenger

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Domh245

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First comment “it looks very different...” But isn’t the reality that they’ll “look” almost identical except for length, and livery?

Depends how much detail you go into, but nope - the window between the door and the vehicle end isn't seen on any of the other 80x, ditto the irregular windows, and the nose section is looking to be pretty different to the other 80x too. That picture does suggest that the later renders (with the slightly platypus looking nose IMO) are fairly accurate though
 

greatvoyager

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Depends how much detail you go into, but nope - the window between the door and the vehicle end isn't seen on any of the other 80x, ditto the irregular windows, and the nose section is looking to be pretty different to the other 80x too. That picture does suggest that the later renders (with the slightly platypus looking nose IMO) are fairly accurate though
The renders are certainly looking better than the generic one when the order was first announced.
 

Aictos

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How much wiring on the MML can the 810s use? Is the Thameslink wiring from St Pan to Bedford only suitable for 100mph running?
Until it's upgraded, I believe that is the case but I await to be corrected if I'm wrong.
 

AM9

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How much wiring on the MML can the 810s use? Is the Thameslink wiring from St Pan to Bedford only suitable for 100mph running?
I think it's been mentioned that some of it will be 125 south of Bedford and will only deliver a minimal reduction in overall journey times. The main difference with all electric traction in TL land is that all trains will have similar acceleration performance and the intensive interleaving of TL and EMR services on the fast lines will be less fragile for both operators' timetables.
 

edwin_m

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I think it's been mentioned that some of it will be 125 south of Bedford and will only deliver a minimal reduction in overall journey times. The main difference with all electric traction in TL land is that all trains will have similar acceleration performance and the intensive interleaving of TL and EMR services on the fast lines will be less fragile for both operators' timetables.
Are they still planning to stay on diesel south of Bedford until the OLE has been upgraded? I'd hope however that they can at least start out and accelerate from St Pancras on OLE before dropping the pan, somewhere around Hendon I guess.
 

fgwrich

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EMR have released a new video.
They certainly love their PR! Though I still wish they'd broken themselves free from the DfT's beloved idea that everything should be 5 cars. Yes, as discussed before, you do have the flexibility from attaching and joining, but as over on the GWML you lose a fair amount of space with the two cabs (although these don't have the massive wasted kitchen space).

Also, I presume that is the standard class seat finally shown off in the background?
 

Mag_seven

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A reminder that this thread is a Traction and Rolling Stock thread about the Class 810 for EMR (Construction and Introduction Updates)

If anyone wants to discuss anything else then please start a new thread.

I've moved some speculative posts that were discussing fast / slow line utilisation to a new thread which can be found here
 

WesternLancer

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EMR have released a new video.
Interesting to see. I note that no existing trains longer than 5 carriages seem to be shown in the video - as if people may not recall a time when they were served by 8 car HSTs or 7 and 9 car Meridiens....
 

lammergeier

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EMR certainly talk a good talk and I have to say the people interviewed in the piece come across well. I just hope the finished product matches the ambition and PR (ie the interiors are genuinely better than the existing IET offering.)
 

Domh245

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Interesting to see. I note that no existing trains longer than 5 carriages seem to be shown in the video - as if people may not recall a time when they were served by 8 car HSTs or 7 and 9 car Meridiens....

The 9 car Meridians were around for about a year and a half, and were rather offset by the fact that all the other Meridians were only 4 cars long..

Worthing noting though that the seating capacity of a 5 car 810 at 312 seats (268/44) is only 38 down on the current 7 car meridian seating (244/106), and that around half of the trains formed of 810s will run as pairs - for around 624 seats (88/536) which dwarfs anything that's run before..
 

superalbs

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The 9 car Meridians were around for about a year and a half, and were rather offset by the fact that all the other Meridians were only 4 cars long..

Worthing noting though that the seating capacity of a 5 car 810 at 312 seats (268/44) is only 38 down on the current 7 car meridian seating (244/106), and that around half of the trains formed of 810s will run as pairs - for around 624 seats (88/536) which dwarfs anything that's run before..
Hopefully this massive uplift in capacity will help bring an end to the ridiculously high MML fares.
 

JonathanH

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Merle Haggard

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... around half of the trains formed of 810s will run as pairs - for around 624 seats (88/536) which dwarfs anything that's run before..

Interesting to compare with loco hauled trains in 1969 when the Midland had Scottish and more Leeds trains.
09.55 St Pancras - Glasgow/Edinburgh; 10 cars, 72/254. 10.50 St P - Nottingham; 10 cars, 126/254 and 11.05 St P - Sheffield 9 cars. 108/224.
Shows how much more efficient use of space is made nowadays. Discuss!
 

WesternLancer

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The 9 car Meridians were around for about a year and a half, and were rather offset by the fact that all the other Meridians were only 4 cars long..

Worthing noting though that the seating capacity of a 5 car 810 at 312 seats (268/44) is only 38 down on the current 7 car meridian seating (244/106), and that around half of the trains formed of 810s will run as pairs - for around 624 seats (88/536) which dwarfs anything that's run before..
Thanks - interesting to see the figs - mind you it's not the total number of seats as far as I am concerned. It's the space between them that makes the comfort factor.

I mean I am sure I could turn my car from a 5 seater to a 7 seater, but I doubt any passengers I carried would thank me...;)

Interesting to compare with loco hauled trains in 1969 when the Midland had Scottish and more Leeds trains.
09.55 St Pancras - Glasgow/Edinburgh; 10 cars, 72/254. 10.50 St P - Nottingham; 10 cars, 126/254 and 11.05 St P - Sheffield 9 cars. 108/224.
Shows how much more efficient use of space is made nowadays. Discuss!
Thanks for those numbers.

I am not sure that 'efficiency' should wholly be related to numbers of seats.... presumably only of critical issue when people have to stand due to lack of seats, and that is a lot less likely post covid for some time. After all many suggest the 'rush hour' may never return, ever - so packing seats in to meet the needs of certain relatively short times of day makes no sense anymore. Leisure travel times can probably be more easily managed by tools like pricing and probably reservations.
 

swt_passenger

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Thanks - interesting to see the figs - mind you it's not the total number of seats as far as I am concerned. It's the space between them that makes the comfort factor.

I mean I am sure I could turn my car from a 5 seater to a 7 seater, but I doubt any passengers I carried would thank me...;)
If the 800/801/802 precedent was followed, then the space between the seats will be better than an HST. “Cramped” seats on 80x seems to be a regularly repeated assumption that won’t go away...
 

Domh245

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Interesting to compare with loco hauled trains in 1969 when the Midland had Scottish and more Leeds trains.
09.55 St Pancras - Glasgow/Edinburgh; 10 cars, 72/254. 10.50 St P - Nottingham; 10 cars, 126/254 and 11.05 St P - Sheffield 9 cars. 108/224.
Shows how much more efficient use of space is made nowadays. Discuss!

Not having a loco on the front will help, as will cutting out large guard/luggage compartments & buffet cars, and putting more airline style seats in, but the other thing to consider is the vehicle lengths. These 10 car formations will be ~240m, a 10 car train back in 1969 would presumably have been Mk1s and thus ~20m stock - add in a loco and they're up to 220m so the new ones gain both in seating density but also (doubly so) usable length!

Thanks - interesting to see the figs - mind you it's not the total number of seats as far as I am concerned. It's the space between them that makes the comfort factor.

I mean I am sure I could turn my car from a 5 seater to a 7 seater, but I doubt any passengers I carried would thank me...;)

The standard AT300s (800-802s) have all been well received in terms of seat spacing, so between these units have a similar sort of seating density between the windows, and having FISA seats (which usually have a niche for knees) these should be good on that front
 

WesternLancer

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Not having a loco on the front will help, as will cutting out large guard/luggage compartments & buffet cars, and putting more airline style seats in, but the other thing to consider is the vehicle lengths. These 10 car formations will be ~240m, a 10 car train back in 1969 would presumably have been Mk1s and thus ~20m stock - add in a loco and they're up to 220m so the new ones gain both in seating density but also (doubly so) usable length!



The standard AT300s (800-802s) have all been well received in terms of seat spacing, so between these units have a similar sort of seating density between the windows, and having FISA seats (which usually have a niche for knees) these should be good on that front
IMHO by the time you need to rely on niche spaces for knees you have created a train where seats are too close together / densely packed. Again not a feature in my car that I need to think about when choosing how to travel....and cars are getting bigger or so it seems to me.
 

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