Commuters told to 'run, hide and tell' in leaflet: Is this Wise?

[21C101]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...run-hide-tell-police-anti-terror-leaflet.html

Commuters told to 'run, hide and tell' in leaflet distributed by police warning of Mumbai-style gun terror attacks at train stations

• New campaign by police to encourage public to be aware of terror threat
• Leaflets handed out at stations telling passengers what to do in attack
• Security services say they've foiled 'marauding gun attacks' in recent years
• But some commuters have criticised the leaflets as 'scaremongering'

Run in a crowded railway station?

It seems to me whoever wrote this leaflet is perhaps not aware what happened at Bethnal Green in 1943 where 173 people were killed in a crush to get into an as yet unopened tube station being used as an air raid shelter after an air raid started.

The Bethnal Green Tube tragedy

The Bethnal Green Tube tragedy saw 173 people crushed to death

In total, 173 people - mostly women and children - were asphyxiated in an accident so shocking that it was years before the public was allowed to know the full truth....

...at 8.27pm, the Victoria Park battery let rip with its new rockets. The noise nearly knocked Jimmy Hunt off his feet. On that top stairwell, it caused chaos. "It made a great 'whoosh'. We'd never heard anything like it," says Alf."People started shouting, 'It's a bomb!' There was screaming and a great shove...."

Adults fell helplessly on children. There were screams, then groans, then whimpers and then nothing. Piled ten deep, people just ran out of breath..... But up at street level, three buses had just screeched to a halt, disgorging yet more people wanting shelter.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A picture of the leaflet is on the original link at the top

 

[ASharpe]

I might just be being cynical here. But don't the Government want to rush through some new anti-terror/restriction of liberties legislation shortly.

A bit of fear from the public might help them get it trough the commons.

 

[Jonny]

I might just be being cynical here. But don't the Government want to rush through some new anti-terror/restriction of liberties legislation shortly.

A bit of fear from the public might help them get it trough the commons.

You mean get it through? But apart from that typo, that's what I would be thinking as well.

 

[Hornet]

Words fail me with that leaflet. Another moral victory to the Terrorist's, aided and abetted by those in power, and the Police.

 

[rebmcr]

In a word, no.

 

[sbt]

I'm wondering exactly how many of you have read the leaflet (I haven't) or the carefully selected photo of part of it the Mail has published.

'Run - Hide - Tell' is only part of the material on the selected portion. The rest (and remember, this isn't all of the leaflet) says:

-----------------------

If you hear gunfire
or a weapons attack,
leave the area safely
if you can. If this
puts you in greater
danger, find a safe
place to take cover.

MAKE A PLAN
NOW AND
STAY SAFE​

-----------------------

RUN - HIDE - TELL seems to be a mnemonic tag-line to help you remember the main advice, not the sum total of the advice. Its not telling you 'Run away screaming down the most packed staircase you can find'. Basically it is, from what I can see, saying 'don't stand around in the open looking confused and wondering what to do and waiting for someone in authority to tell you, until the guys with the guns shoot you' - which is what has, I believe, happened with some people in some real attacks.

To my mind the key bit is 'Make a plan now'. How many railway staff have thought about what to do if someone started shooting on THIER station? Drivers - have you though through what you would do if you were approaching or at a platform when you became aware of shooting? Guards, what if someone started shooting on your train, between stations?

Passengers, what would YOU do? Do you know all the exits from the stations you use, including the ones that you could use when getting nicked for fare evasion and keeping your suit clean were not really the first thing on your mind? Do you know where the nearest cover is to where you usually stand on the platform? Do you know where the staff exit from the Coffee Shop is?

I know this all sounds a bit hyped and panicky to many, but to me its as routine and sensible as alerting people when you see an unattended bag on the platform or another public space. But then I have a job where checking under the car, varying your route to work (if you can) and knowing the tell-tales for a Postal Bomb were drummed into me on day 1, some 30 years ago.

BTW, you DO have an escape plan from your home in the event of fire, don't you? Do that one FIRST - its more likely.

<Sits back and waits for the derision and insults>

 

[HSTEd]

This is just an attempt to whip up paranoia now that Theresa May wants unlimited powers to do whatever the hell she wants in surveillance terms.

 

[21C101]

I'm wondering exactly how many of you have read the leaflet (I haven't) or the carefully selected photo of part of it the Mail has published.

'Run - Hide - Tell' is only part of the material on the selected portion. The rest (and remember, this isn't all of the leaflet) says:

-----------------------

If you hear gunfire
or a weapons attack,
leave the area safely
if you can. If this
puts you in greater
danger, find a safe
place to take cover.

MAKE A PLAN
NOW AND
STAY SAFE​

-----------------------

RUN - HIDE - TELL seems to be a mnemonic tag-line to help you remember the main advice, not the sum total of the advice. Its not telling you 'Run away screaming down the most packed staircase you can find'. Basically it is, from what I can see, saying 'don't stand around in the open looking confused and wondering what to do and waiting for someone in authority to tell you, until the guys with the guns shoot you' - which is what has, I believe, happened with some people in some real attacks.

To my mind the key bit is 'Make a plan now'. How many railway staff have thought about what to do if someone started shooting on THIER station? Drivers - have you though through what you would do if you were approaching or at a platform when you became aware of shooting? Guards, what if someone started shooting on your train, between stations?

Passengers, what would YOU do? Do you know all the exits from the stations you use, including the ones that you could use when getting nicked for fare evasion and keeping your suit clean were not really the first thing on your mind? Do you know where the nearest cover is to where you usually stand on the platform? Do you know where the staff exit from the Coffee Shop is?

I know this all sounds a bit hyped and panicky to many, but to me its as routine and sensible as alerting people when you see an unattended bag on the platform or another public space. But then I have a job where checking under the car, varying your route to work (if you can) and knowing the tell-tales for a Postal Bomb were drummed into me on day 1, some 30 years ago.

BTW, you DO have an escape plan from your home in the event of fire, don't you? Do that one FIRST - its more likely.

<Sits back and waits for the derision and insults>

I wasn't trying to start a debate with the leaflet per se , just the RUN bit. While as you put it dosen't tell people to "Run away screaming down the most packed staircase you can find" it does include a picture of several commuters running down er.. a narrow open slatted staircase with the word "RUN" in large letters superimposed on the picture. If that is not advice to run down stairs I don't know what is?

The point is that if people run in a crowded station it could cause far more fatalities than a terrorist and, as at Bethnal Green in 1943 it could be a "false alarm" that causes the panic. In any fire drill, when you have to evacuate a building quickly, they always tell you NOT to run because it is so dangerous and risks causing a crush.

Know the station plan so you can leave quickly is one thing. "Run" is another.

If the authorities are that worried perhaps it might be a good idea to take away all the ticket barriers that so restrict entry/exit at most stations now.......

 

[stut]

Kind of reminds me of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXx5Y2Fr2bk

But I do see the point in putting information through in drill format (just like the often derided by surprisingly effective airline safety demos). People are unpredictable in a panic, and a simple mnemonic like this can really be effective.

That said, I do share other's cynicism about the exploitation of fear by those who seek more authority.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

This type of attack is unfortunately a very real risk at the moment, and it's a difficult type of attack to manage.

What is described in the leaflet is really the only way to reduce the risk to yourself should something happen. I suggest people read the whole leaflet than just the tagline to make it memorable.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

This type of attack is unfortunately a very real risk at the moment, and it's a difficult type of attack to manage.

What is described in the leaflet is really the only way to reduce the risk to yourself should something happen. I suggest people read the whole leaflet than just the tagline to make it memorable.

I don't know where you live but up here in rural Yorkshire the chances of al Qaeda launching a terrorist attack on, for example, a sleepy country station on the Penistone line is somewhere between remote and non-existent.

The government's scaremongering is laughable and I totally agree with those suggesting that scaring the public with an imaginary threat is a convenient way of pushing through legislation to restrict our freedom. We were far more at risk in the 1980s with the IRA's mainland bombings, the Cold War and the nuclear threat.

 

[sbt]

... the chances of al Qaeda launching a terrorist attack on, for example, a sleepy country station on the Penistone line is somewhere between remote and non-existent.

Which is why the leaflet has been handed out to London commuters only.

----------

AQ are probably the least likely perpetrators at the moment. 'Other terrorist organisations are available'.

Two IRA gunmen shot 3, of which 2 died, soldiers on Lichfield Station in 1990. So its happened before in the UK, just not in the sustained type of attack that we are seeing these days. And it happened at a relatively small and 'out of the way' station (but not a tiny rural halt).

I do agree that 'Run' and the related image is probably not the best choice.

But I note that both the OP and the original Mail article are written as if Run-Hide-Tell is the only message on the leaflet. Nowhere in either is the additional material mentioned.

 

[Dolive22]

sbt, that doesn't sound at all silly, but then I'm in the habit of working out where I could shelter from a nuclear bomb, so perhaps I'm not a good judge of such things.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Given that it takes me five minutes to get out of the suburban platforms at London Euston thanks to that bloody ticket barrier and another five minutes to make my way through the hoards of tourists on the concourse, I don't think I'll manage to "run and hide" anywhere if someone opens fire. People in that station would be a sitting duck.

But I agree that the leaflet is all about scaremongering, and I speak as someone who knows people caught up in the Kenyan shopping mall attack last year. Although if I were to plan an attack like this, I'd probably choose a "smaller" station as there'd be less security about. See the IRA's attack on Warrington in 1993 for further details.

 

[Bellbell]

I actually had given this some thought before the leaflet was released but I'll be honest, hadn't formulated a plan. I don't know whether staying on the train is the safest option (an occasion where no one would blame me for hiding in the back cab?). Does give the option of leaving the train onto the tracks if needed, which clearly has its own risks but if it comes to it...

Of the major stations I pass through there's one, with mezzanine levels and a fairly open nature that would be very difficult to move in after the first few minutes of chaos. You'd be a sitting duck.

If someone started shooting on a moving train, well, I guess it depends on the actual location. There's not a huge number of options though, let's be honest.

 

[muz379]

If someone starts shooting on a moving train there is really not a lot that can be done about that . I certainly wouldn't go trying any amateur heroics in that instance .Try and contact the emergency service and get them to the next station stop . Failing that its going to be a messed up situation .

I wasn't trying to start a debate with the leaflet per se , just the RUN bit. While as you put it dosen't tell people to "Run away screaming down the most packed staircase you can find" it does include a picture of several commuters running down er.. a narrow open slatted staircase with the word "RUN" in large letters superimposed on the picture. If that is not advice to run down stairs I don't know what is?

The point is that if people run in a crowded station it could cause far more fatalities than a terrorist and, as at Bethnal Green in 1943 it could be a "false alarm" that causes the panic. In any fire drill, when you have to evacuate a building quickly, they always tell you NOT to run because it is so dangerous and risks causing a crush.

Know the station plan so you can leave quickly is one thing. "Run" is another.

If the authorities are that worried perhaps it might be a good idea to take away all the ticket barriers that so restrict entry/exit at most stations now.......

You can say this until you are blue in the face . But you know in all honestly if someone did start shooting , or there was a fire or explosion in a busy station . Everybody would start running . Even I who agrees with what you are saying would start running because adrenaline would kick in and you would want to be out of there as quick as possible .

 

[Greenback]

How can you realistically plan what you will do if an attack takes place when surely your decision at the time will be heavily influenced by the circumstances and the location you are at?

 

[muz379]

How can you realistically plan what you will do if an attack takes place when surely your decision at the time will be heavily influenced by the circumstances and the location you are at?

I suppose the advice is aimed at commuters and railway staff who work/travel through the same station every day .In which case you should probably have a bit of an idea already about how to quickly leave the station .

If you are at an unfamiliar station the advice would be just like the advice given out by the fire brigade which is to make yourself aware of the nearest fire escape route clearly signed .

 

[Bellbell]

You can't have a precise plan. But generally knowing exit routes over and above your usual one and having some understanding of the general layout means you increase your chances of getting out. Far more likely that you'd need to use the info during a fire than a terrorist attack and neither are exactly common but no harm in knowing is there?

 

[Greenback]

I suppose the advice is aimed at commuters and railway staff who work/travel through the same station every day .In which case you should probably have a bit of an idea already about how to quickly leave the station .

If you are at an unfamiliar station the advice would be just like the advice given out by the fire brigade which is to make yourself aware of the nearest fire escape route clearly signed .

Even so, as a commuter between Swansea and Llanelli, my reaction could be very different depending on whether it was a maniac firing a gun in Llanelli, Swansea or on the train. Then there are other instances of terrorism apart from shooting people.

I'm afraid my conclusion is this is part of government strategy to make people thin k we are facing some kind of doomsday scenario so that they can bring in their legislation.

 

[muz379]

Even so, as a commuter between Swansea and Llanelli, my reaction could be very different depending on whether it was a maniac firing a gun in Llanelli, Swansea or on the train. Then there are other instances of terrorism apart from shooting people.

I'm afraid my conclusion is this is part of government strategy to make people thin k we are facing some kind of doomsday scenario so that they can bring in their legislation.

Oh I agree there are many situations that could crop up that one has not prepared for or ready for . Lets also be brutally honest there are some situations in which bad luck means regardless of how well prepared you are you stand no chance . Say you where sat in the carriage next to the bomb , regardless of how well prepared you are you just dont stand a chance .

But if you where to be in a station you use regularly and had thought about what to do in an emergency . If the situation occurs you will know what to do when the panic sets in. In all honesty it is more likely to be a bomb scare or fire alarm that sees you having to put the advice into use but even so it could save your bacon .

Then again im the sort of person who is always aware of fire exits and escape routes when I go to places after being in a simulated smoke filled environment Id like to least have some idea where I am going if the worst came to the worst .

I do share cynicism of the current media rhetoric ramping up the perceived threat level . And its possible use in justification for more "counter terrorism" powers . However the advice about being aware of your surroundings and knowing what to do is not new advice . It was advice given out in WW2 to those in major cities that faced possible bombing raids. It was advice given out when the nuclear threat of the cold war was ever so prevalent . Yes its new method of presentation at this time could be viewed with cynicism however the advice itself isnt anything new .

 

[Dolive22]

I'm certainly cynical enough to believe this is being talked up for political reasons, but I'm puzzled why they would bother. Unless you actually want these powers for counter terrorism, they are mainly useful for dealing with online harrassment (which the Home Office has shown absolutely zero enthusiasm for dealing with), petty crime, online fraud (they talk a good talk, but the right things to tackle it don't happen), and IP theft. I don't think they care enough to go to this trouble. Finally, I don't think they are organised enough for this to be a master plan to usher in a police state.

Anyway, probably best not to panic when you hear the sound of a flashover or a tool being dropped and cause a fatal stampede.

 

[21C101]

Anyway, probably best not to panic when you hear the sound of a flashover or a tool being dropped and cause a fatal stampede.

Exactly. Put out a leaflet warning that nutjobs with machine guns might be on the loose in the station at some future point and tell people to "run" if they turn up - and then wonder why there is a fatal crush when a car backfires outside the station entrance in the middle of the rush hour......

 

[Greenback]

I also like to be fully aware of my surroundings and escape routes in case there is an emergency, I expect that's to do with the fire safety training I've had over many years!

Perhaps this advice is better for those who aren't as safety minded. If it helps people to think more about emergency situations then that is a good thing, despite my cynicism about the real purpose of the information.

 

[muz379]

I'm certainly cynical enough to believe this is being talked up for political reasons, but I'm puzzled why they would bother. Unless you actually want these powers for counter terrorism, they are mainly useful for dealing with online harrassment (which the Home Office has shown absolutely zero enthusiasm for dealing with), petty crime, online fraud (they talk a good talk, but the right things to tackle it don't happen), and IP theft. I don't think they care enough to go to this trouble. Finally, I don't think they are organised enough for this to be a master plan to usher in a police state.

Anyway, probably best not to panic when you hear the sound of a flashover or a tool being dropped and cause a fatal stampede.

The problem isn't necessarily with the government though . The police and security services have often shown their inability to act within the regulatory framework they are given , and used the powers they have been given properly and proportionately . Why should we trust them with more if they cannot act properly with the ones they have already been given .

Take Section 44 of the terrorism act , this gave police the power the stop and search anybody without any grounds whatsoever in an area authorized by an assistant chief constable or above . The authorization was confirmed by the home secretary .

This sounds great when it comes to terrorism because you can stop people you have intelligence about without having to divulge any information to them . However the police frequently used the power against lawfull protestors which is not what parliament intended and the power was eventually revoked .

 

[fairysdad]

What is described in the leaflet is really the only way to reduce the risk to yourself should something happen. I suggest people read the whole leaflet than just the tagline to make it memorable.

The problem with that is that people are lazy, and that's the point of taglines - simple advertising psychology. People generally won't read the whole leaflet, but they will remember the tagline. Even if they do read the leaflet, it'll be once, twice maybe, and again, they'll remember the tagline.

There would have been more accurate words to chose over 'run' - 'exit' or 'evacuate' are the two that spring to mind. I'd guess that most people will be familiar with a fire drill scenario; all workplaces would have them and even if the person is unemployed, they'd have experienced it at school (I agree that it's different in a public place though!), so the principle behind that kind of 'running' is known, and (again with the psychology!) they should have chosen a word that has a subconscious link with that rather than a 'panic' run (which the image doesn't help with!).

 

[Blamethrower]

Good points raised here. I spoke to my ex-policeman subordinate about it and he is 100% convinced that there is a "very real threat" because all the police, the country over, have been told to expect an attack.

Must be true then.

I asked how he knew for sure - "all agencies have evidence, blah blah blah", why would he question authority? The Met for example have always been honest and trustworthy....

*end sarcasm

"Terror", "MMCC", "health and Safety" - all tools of the government to exploit new capitalist markets for their corporate buddies

 

[Tetchytyke]

Finally, I don't think they are organised enough for this to be a master plan to usher in a police state.

I don't think there's a master plan for a police state. We're not controlled by lizards. We are run by people who need to justify their jobs, though.

But our intelligence agencies are facing quite a lot of anger for intruding in people's private communication, both lawfully (because of bad laws) and unlawfully.

What better way to justify that intrusion than creating a vague and faceless threat that nobody can prove or disprove the existence of? Especially a threat that sounds remarkably similar to the shocking Nairobi attack that happened pretty much exactly one year ago.

 

[21C101]

Good points raised here. I spoke to my ex-policeman subordinate about it and he is 100% convinced that there is a "very real threat" because all the police, the country over, have been told to expect an attack.

Must be true then.

I asked how he knew for sure - "all agencies have evidence, blah blah blah", why would he question authority? The Met for example have always been honest and trustworthy....

*end sarcasm

"Terror", "MMCC", "health and Safety" - all tools of the government to exploit new capitalist markets for their corporate buddies

Im not taking issue with the assumption that some criminal is plotting such an outrage and put out sensible measured advice to take precautions, regrettably its an easy enough thing to do if you have the intent and can get hold of the weapons - as anyone in Hungerford can testify...

I'm just questioning whether the advice (or specifically the run bit of it) is wise.

Also it is a valid question to ask, if the threat is that real, why are ticket barriers not being removed to make it easier to escape?

 

[edwin_m]

Exactly. Put out a leaflet warning that nutjobs with machine guns might be on the loose in the station at some future point and tell people to "run" if they turn up - and then wonder why there is a fatal crush when a car backfires outside the station entrance in the middle of the rush hour......

Or a third rail pot blows up in Charing Cross. See other topic.