Companies That You Expect to Disappear Soon

[xotGD]

I'd say the best way to protect the future of our pubs is to use them as much as we can.

I'll need a vaccine chaser with my pint before I return to the pub!

I've been drinking bottled ales from a local brewery during lockdown, so still doing my bit for the industry.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I suspect that, locally, everyone will have their own experiences and assessments of how things may have changed as far as the licensed trade is concerned - and there'll be a wide range of experiences, assessments and opinions; not one universal one.

To take my immediate area, two pubs have closed in recent years, both of which were 'PubCo' owned and of the fairly large kind that were built between the 1930s and 1950s in roadside suburban residential locations. Having stood empty for a while, both have been converted. One has become a Sainsbury's Local, and the other split between a Co-op and a Greggs. I'm bang between the two, about a twelve minute walk from both. Both sites have been well-patronised since opening, and they have been an absolute god-send since March.

Since those PubCo operations closed as pubs, four micropubs have opened within the same walking radius. They're all locally and independently owned and all have grown steadily into apparently strong businesses (and three of them remain open in Tier Three for pre-order takeaway right now).

I admit, therefore, that I actually far prefer having two reliable and convenient shops, and four independent micropubs, than the previous two PubCo pubs. Purely anecdotally and reportedly, there was often 'bother' at those old pubs, whereas I've not seen or heard a peep of trouble from the micros. If that's actually the case, then I can imagine that the council, Police and Casualty are probably also quite keen on the way things have changed, too.

Whilst I agree with much of this (I also do much prefer small independent places), I can't help feel that it is a pretty selfish view.
From my own experience of a pub I was a regular at closing, it was a pretty gutting experience and sadly there are some friends I had then who I barely see anymore (partly as that place pulled in regulars from well outside the local area and without it many of those people see no reason to travel there anymore, and partly because some of those people basically didn't go out apart from going to that place, and no its shut they see no reason to go out).
It also can't be ignored that these independent places also tend to be a fair bit more expensive. It doesn't bother me, I'd much rather pay £5 for a pint of local beer than £3.50 for a pint of fosters - but not everyone can afford that.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Far better quality than Primark. But then that was 20 years ago !. I saw C&A still exist in Germany so maybe not too impossible.

I cannot see myself buying clothes online unless its to buy an identical item that I already have.

Funnily enough the old C&A in Huddersfield (the source of school trousers for years) is now Primark. Other than removing any logos they made very little change to the unit in 20+ years!

 

[FQTV]

Whilst I agree with much of this (I also do much prefer small independent places), I can't help feel that it is a pretty selfish view.
From my own experience of a pub I was a regular at closing, it was a pretty gutting experience and sadly there are some friends I had then who I barely see anymore (partly as that place pulled in regulars from well outside the local area and without it many of those people see no reason to travel there anymore, and partly because some of those people basically didn't go out apart from going to that place, and no its shut they see no reason to go out).
It also can't be ignored that these independent places also tend to be a fair bit more expensive. It doesn't bother me, I'd much rather pay £5 for a pint of local beer than £3.50 for a pint of fosters - but not everyone can afford that.

My point really is that, as in your case, there is a wide range of experiences. My perception at the moment is that the licensed trade's lobbying power is so high, however, that it's possible to get the impression, if one own's experience happens to align with the lobbying message, that the whole trade is going to hell in a handcart.

The village that I am from originally had four pubs and two large clubs. There's now one pub remaining. The population and the demographics haven't changed all that much, but what has happened is that two brothers, and then someone else, set up minibus taxi firms with some redundancy money, and (pre-Covid), they shipped dozens, if not hundreds of locals out, multiple nights and days a week, to urban pubs in towns up to twenty miles away.

Some of the village pubs and the clubs that closed didn't see it coming; some did but were not particularly well-run by folks who had little experience of the pub trade, but a slightly romantic notion of being mine host in early retirement (or redundancy), and one faced a slight 'externality' that probably guaranteed its demise.

And, as car ownership grew, it's probably the case that buying bulk supermarket booze has become not just cheaper, but actually practical.

The trade lobby is very good at promoting the notion that pubs are some kind of social service; whilst they may perform a very useful and valuable social function, they are above all else commercial businesses, and if they're not viable then they're vulnerable.

The question with regard to the pub that you mention in particular, is do you know exactly why it closed? Was it subject to some 'unfair' external influence, or was it simply that their costs were in excess of revenue and profit margin requirements?

 

[C J Snarzell]

I do honestly hope that our pubs/bars/clubs/restaurants will remain after the Covid situation dies down and people can embrace social environments again.

My other concern with the licencing industry is that we are likely to see a rise in taxes at the next budget. Rishi Sunak is potentially going to increase duty on alcohol (along with fuel and tobacco) which again will impact on the profits for all licenced establishments.

Already, most pubs are fighting to maintain competitive prices on drinks but I'm seeing more and more places now charge over £4 for a pint.

The other issues over taxes is the local authority rates on business premises which will see increases in their overheads. Its almost like, the pubs that do survive will be squeezed that little bit more and some may even just call it a day.

CJ

 

[DB]

I do honestly hope that our pubs/bars/clubs/restaurants will remain after the Covid situation dies down and people can embrace social environments again.

My other concern with the licencing industry is that we are likely to see a rise in taxes at the next budget. Rishi Sunak is potentially going to increase duty on alcohol (along with fuel and tobacco) which again will impact on the profits for all licenced establishments.

Already, most pubs are fighting to maintain competitive prices on drinks but I'm seeing more and more places now charge over £4 for a pint.

The other issues over taxes is the local authority rates on business premises which will see increases in their overheads. Its almost like, the pubs that do survive will be squeezed that little bit more and some may even just call it a day.

CJ

There definitely needs to be no tax rises on the hospitality industry for at least a year after they are able to operate normally again - they have taken the worst of this situation and it would be completely unfair to kick them yet again.

 

[FQTV]

I do honestly hope that our pubs/bars/clubs/restaurants will remain after the Covid situation dies down and people can embrace social environments again.

My other concern with the licencing industry is that we are likely to see a rise in taxes at the next budget. Rishi Sunak is potentially going to increase duty on alcohol (along with fuel and tobacco) which again will impact on the profits for all licenced establishments.

Already, most pubs are fighting to maintain competitive prices on drinks but I'm seeing more and more places now charge over £4 for a pint.

The other issues over taxes is the local authority rates on business premises which will see increases in their overheads. Its almost like, the pubs that do survive will be squeezed that little bit more and some may even just call it a day.

CJ

Some pubs have a strategy of maintaining low pricing. Some pubs are more than happy to charge £6, £7 and approaching £8 for a pint, with some bars well North of that.

There definitely needs to be no tax rises on the hospitality industry for at least a year after they are able to operate normally again - they have taken the worst of this situation and it would be completely unfair to kick them yet again.

Almost 3,000 pubs in the UK are owned by Star Pubs. Star is the PubCo of Heineken. Heineken is 50.05% owned by the Heineken family. 25% of the total shares are owned by one member of the family who is calculated to be worth, on her own, a little over USD16 billion.

To put this into a couple of different contexts, Star is only the third largest PubCo in the UK, and the net worth of 'public enemies' Sir Philip and Lady Green is calculated at just over USD2 billion, so only about an eighth of Charlene de Carvalho-Heineken's.

Charlene may be down a bit this year, so I suspect that a moratorium on tax rises would be gratefully welcomed.

 

[DB]

Some pubs have a strategy of maintaining low pricing. Some pubs are more than happy to charge £6, £7 and approaching £8 for a pint, with some bars well North of that.



Almost 3,000 pubs in the UK are owned by Star Pubs. Star is the PubCo of Heineken. Heineken is 50.05% owned by the Heineken family. 25% of the total shares are owned by one member of the family who is calculated to be worth, on her own, a little over USD16 billion.

To put this into a couple of different contexts, Star is only the third largest PubCo in the UK, and the net worth of 'public enemies' Sir Philip and Lady Green is calculated at just over USD2 billion, so only about an eighth of Charlene de Carvalho-Heineken's.

Charlene may be down a bit this year, so I suspect that a moratorium on tax rises would be gratefully welcomed.

But the problem is, even with a business that size tax rises on top of being forced to close or restrict numbers for much of this year could lead to them shutting pubs, with the knock on effects on employment.

And for businesses owned freehold by the people who run them it could be much more of an issue - and not sure how these could be treated preferentially over the pubcos.

 

[cactustwirly]

I suspect that, locally, everyone will have their own experiences and assessments of how things may have changed as far as the licensed trade is concerned - and there'll be a wide range of experiences, assessments and opinions; not one universal one.

To take my immediate area, two pubs have closed in recent years, both of which were 'PubCo' owned and of the fairly large kind that were built between the 1930s and 1950s in roadside suburban residential locations. Having stood empty for a while, both have been converted. One has become a Sainsbury's Local, and the other split between a Co-op and a Greggs. I'm bang between the two, about a twelve minute walk from both. Both sites have been well-patronised since opening, and they have been an absolute god-send since March.

Since those PubCo operations closed as pubs, four micropubs have opened within the same walking radius. They're all locally and independently owned and all have grown steadily into apparently strong businesses (and three of them remain open in Tier Three for pre-order takeaway right now).

I admit, therefore, that I actually far prefer having two reliable and convenient shops, and four independent micropubs, than the previous two PubCo pubs. Purely anecdotally and reportedly, there was often 'bother' at those old pubs, whereas I've not seen or heard a peep of trouble from the micros. If that's actually the case, then I can imagine that the council, Police and Casualty are probably also quite keen on the way things have changed, too.

But in most areas they'll just be turned into houses, so you would have nothing. At which point 2 large pubs are preferable.

 

[FQTV]

But the problem is, even with a business that size tax rises on top of being forced to close or restrict numbers for much of this year could lead to them shutting pubs, with the knock on effects on employment.

And for businesses owned freehold by the people who run them it could be much more of an issue - and not sure how these could be treated preferentially over the pubcos.

If they shut pubs, it's because they're not viable businesses.

If they're not viable businesses, it will not be unconnected to the level of rent that the PubCos charge their tenants/managers/lessees, and any restrictive terms in their supply contracts.

These enormous businesses, sometimes owned by some of the world's wealthiest individuals, are extremely powerful and influential in their lobbying, and know that portraying pubs as friendly local social services is an incredibly effective way of ensuring that their profits are defended to the absolute maximum, whilst neatly disguising the real pressures within their own business models.

The industry has already had half a billion pounds put behind it through Eat Out to Help Out; then there's the business rate holiday, then there's local authority Covid grant support, Business Bounceback Loans and, in some cases, business interruption cover as well.

I'm not suggesting for a moment that times aren't incredibly tough for the licensed trade, but they are for all sorts of sectors that simply don't have the lobbying power that the brewers have, nor the ability to portray themselves in a very specific way that currently resonates with the public and the media finds it easy to write up.

Freehold pubs have a completely different business model, and the pressures on them are similarly different, but if you look at the monthly rents from the PubCos on some pubs, and have a stab at the Freehold value of the same property, and then what a commercial mortgage would cost, the PubCo's take comes out looking like a Rolling Stock Company's lease charges on a fully-paid, fully-depreciated Pacer.

But in most areas they'll just be turned into houses, so you would have nothing. At which point 2 large pubs are preferable.

Maybe most, maybe not; I don't know as I don't have any figures. However, if two large pubs aren't profitable as businesses, how should they be subsidised, and how should the priority for subsidy be assessed against other potential recipients?

 

[PTR 444]

Debenhams in Southampton always seemed a bit lost, out on a limb even before the “centre” became concentrated at West Quay. I can well imagine it never reopening for retail purposes...

I agree, although the planned Bargate Quarter development was supposed to change that. It’s amazing to think that the site has remained derelict for the entirety of my two and a half years as a student in Soton, despite having been meant to open in Autumn 2019. Chances are that the impact of Covid will only cause further delays to it, and not a single foundation will be laid before I graduate in 7 months time.

 

[dgl]

Of course the leisure industry whilst it has had tax breaks and the like it has also had to cope with the extra costs of enhanced cleaning, both in staff and cleaning materials, and in a lot of cases having to reduce occupation levels.
I work on a caravan site and not only have we had enhanced cleaning, we initially had a significant reduction in the amount of guests that could stay, plus we had to limit access to the facilities (swimming pool, entertainment, restaurant Etc.) so again a reduced income stream, of course if you can only have ~50% of your restaurant occupied and it's usually busy anyway then eat out to help out doesn't do much.
Add to that the cost of refunds to guests who either couldn't stay or were legitimately unhappy with the cleanliness on arrival then the business cost adds up to quite a lot, I know the company I work for are restructuring at the moment and it is feared a good amount of head office jobs will go.

Of course the one positive of the whole situation is that cleaners, once the lesser cared about workers, have suddenly become the most important thing to businesses and are being valued a whole lote more.

 

[swt_passenger]

I agree, although the planned Bargate Quarter development was supposed to change that. It’s amazing to think that the site has remained derelict for the entirety of my two and a half years as a student in Soton, despite having been meant to open in Autumn 2019. Chances are that the impact of Covid will only cause further delays to it, and not a single foundation will be laid before I graduate in 7 months time.

Well the Bargate Centre was never a success, also a bit out of the way, and lasting just over 20 years from new. But showing my age, I also remember the newly opened East Street Centre, which was effectively “behind” Debenhams, and basically a pretty small and useless shopping mall, it had offices above, but included a useful multi storey if visiting Debenhams. Its main entrance was right next door to Debenhams goods entrance. So that “centre” would have lasted about 40 years from the early 70s, and was also never ever financially successful.

 

[FQTV]

I agree, although the planned Bargate Quarter development was supposed to change that. It’s amazing to think that the site has remained derelict for the entirety of my two and a half years as a student in Soton, despite having been meant to open in Autumn 2019. Chances are that the impact of Covid will only cause further delays to it, and not a single foundation will be laid before I graduate in 7 months time.

Well the Bargate Centre was never a success, also a bit out of the way, and lasting just over 20 years from new. But showing my age, I also remember the newly opened East Street Centre, which was effectively “behind” Debenhams, and basically a pretty small and useless shopping mall, it had offices above, but included a useful multi storey if visiting Debenhams. Its main entrance was right next door to Debenhams goods entrance. So that “centre” would have lasted about 40 years from the early 70s, and was also never ever financially successful.

The company that I worked for in the 1990s had a branch on East Street at the time - and it was like the back of beyond then! Looking at Street View now, it seems to have regressed even further.

 

[maniacmartin]

One of my local pubs has been converted into a MacDonalds at some point in the past, with the beer garden tarmacced over to make a drive-thru! It's currently doing a roaring trade right now, and traffic often queues out onto the main road

 

[Butts]

Debenhams in Southampton always seemed a bit lost, out on a limb even before the “centre” became concentrated at West Quay. I can well imagine it never reopening for retail purposes...

Don't you mean Edwin Jones for those of us old enough to remember ?

 

[Jamiescott1]

Already, most pubs are fighting to maintain competitive prices on drinks but I'm seeing more and more places now charge over £4 for a pint.
CJ

Less than £4 a pint. Where do you live?
I rarely see less than £5 a pint

 

[Dai Corner]

Less than £4 a pint. Where do you live?
I rarely see less than £5 a pint

£3 a pint in my favourite independent pub here in Newport South Wales. That's for a proper ale from a local brewery, not the mass produced stuff.

 

[swt_passenger]

Don't you mean Edwin Jones for those of us old enough to remember ?

Oh, I only arrived in the area in the mid 70s, I hadn’t realised that. But I see it only changed name in 1973, although ownership change was back in 1928. I just realised that in the 60s Plummers (up by the Bargate for younger readers) was also owned by the Debenhams group.

I wonder if current issues mean the whole concept of a national or regional “department store chain” just won’t survive?

Will anyone try and make it work?

 

[WelshBluebird]

My point really is that, as in your case, there is a wide range of experiences. My perception at the moment is that the licensed trade's lobbying power is so high, however, that it's possible to get the impression, if one own's experience happens to align with the lobbying message, that the whole trade is going to hell in a handcart.

The village that I am from originally had four pubs and two large clubs. There's now one pub remaining. The population and the demographics haven't changed all that much, but what has happened is that two brothers, and then someone else, set up minibus taxi firms with some redundancy money, and (pre-Covid), they shipped dozens, if not hundreds of locals out, multiple nights and days a week, to urban pubs in towns up to twenty miles away.

Some of the village pubs and the clubs that closed didn't see it coming; some did but were not particularly well-run by folks who had little experience of the pub trade, but a slightly romantic notion of being mine host in early retirement (or redundancy), and one faced a slight 'externality' that probably guaranteed its demise.

And, as car ownership grew, it's probably the case that buying bulk supermarket booze has become not just cheaper, but actually practical.

The trade lobby is very good at promoting the notion that pubs are some kind of social service; whilst they may perform a very useful and valuable social function, they are above all else commercial businesses, and if they're not viable then they're vulnerable.

The question with regard to the pub that you mention in particular, is do you know exactly why it closed? Was it subject to some 'unfair' external influence, or was it simply that their costs were in excess of revenue and profit margin requirements?

Oh I totally agree that experiences will differ, and especially when you have essentially large property companies owning a huge number of pubs, the idea of supporting those places financially via tax cuts etc does seem pretty obscene!

It is complicated by the fact that for a lot of the pubs owned by pubcos, the people actually running the pubs are really the ones suffering atm. For the most part they are still having to pay rent to the pubcos etc and it is their livelihood that will be lost if they do have to close for good (the pubco will be fine - they'll either sell the building off for a huge profit or just sit on it until someone else can open it up and then charge them even higher rents!).

So in terms of lobbying power - the pubcos and large corporations involved totally do have huge power mainly thanks to their financial clout.
But the independents and even those landlords / landladies running pubs owned by pubcos have basically zero power or influence.

For the pub I was talking about, basically, its our belief it was an attempt for gentrify the building. There's quite a few things that happened over the years I was a regular and since that essentially proves we were just "undesirables" taking up space that could be used for a nice pleasant tourist pub (this was in the centre of Bath, right next to Spa and a fancy new hotel that has spa water pipped into it) - too much to go into here really, but the final thing that did close it was that when the tenancy was up for renewal, the only terms management company would agree to was were the responsibility of maintaining the building itself passed from them to the couple who ran the pub - they couldn't afford those costs, mainly due to how much the management company had neglected the building over the decade, and the company damn well knew that.

£3 a pint in my favourite independent pub here in Newport South Wales. That's for a proper ale from a local brewery, not the mass produced stuff.

At the same time pop into Tiny Rebel on High Street and it will be pretty much a fiver a pint. As much as I like that kind place - it isn't cheap and the big problem with existing places closing and smaller intendent places opening is they tend to enter into the more expensive market! Not knocking Tiny Rebel (or Le Pub which is basically next door - love those places), but they aren't really a replacement for an old simple boozer.

 

[Dai Corner]

At the same time pop into Tiny Rebel on High Street and it will be pretty much a fiver a pint. As much as I like that kind place - it isn't cheap and the big problem with existing places closing and smaller intendent places opening is they tend to enter into the more expensive market! Not knocking Tiny Rebel (or Le Pub which is basically next door - love those places), but they aren't really a replacement for an old simple boozer.

As you know the area, the place I'm referring to is MCanns, a couple of doors up the High Street. It is literally the replacement for the Hornblower which was an old simple boozer (+live music venue) knocked down to make way for flats.

Hopefully Amy will still be in business and able to reopen when allowed.

 

[WelshBluebird]

As you know the area, the place I'm referring to is MCanns, a couple of doors up the High Street. It is literally the replacement for the Hornblower which was an old simple boozer (+live music venue) knocked down to make way for flats.

Hopefully Amy will still be in business and able to reopen when allowed.

Touch wood then! Will try to make an effort to pop in next time I'm around (which is usually for a gig at Le pub so hasn't been much this year!).

 

[C J Snarzell]

Less than £4 a pint. Where do you live?
I rarely see less than £5 a pint

I live near Wigan. There are still one or two local pubs that sell pints at less than £3.

The local Weatherspoons is a favourite and does alot of beers at competitive prices. They used to do a Monday club in which drinks were slightly cheaper.

I think the dearest place for a pint I've paid for recently, was £4.50 for a Peroni at a local restaurant (pre-lockdown 2).

CJ

 

[Jamiescott1]

I live near Wigan. There are still one or two local pubs that sell pints at less than £3.

The local Weatherspoons is a favourite and does alot of beers at competitive prices. They used to do a Monday club in which drinks were slightly cheaper.

I think the dearest place for a pint I've paid for recently, was £4.50 for a Peroni at a local restaurant (pre-lockdown 2).

CJ

Wow.
The cheapest of the two locals i go to is £4.80 a pint and the other i pay £5.50.

 

[Butts]

Oh, I only arrived in the area in the mid 70s, I hadn’t realised that. But I see it only changed name in 1973, although ownership change was back in 1928. I just realised that in the 60s Plummers (up by the Bargate for younger readers) was also owned by the Debenhams group.

I wonder if current issues mean the whole concept of a national or regional “department store chain” just won’t survive?

Will anyone try and make it work?

Do you remember Tyrrell & Green as well ?

That was up the top end of Town - is it still there ?

 

[swt_passenger]

Do you remember Tyrrell & Green as well ?

That was up the top end of Town - is it still there ?

Yes, I do. I think one of the things about Southampton compared to some other city centres was the way it all spread out along one long length, especially if you include the leg down to Debenhams. I remember my wife trying to compare things in Debenhams and Tyrells, I thought it was all a bit of a hike, especially with the kids in tow...

When Tyrells moved to West Quay and took the John Lewis name, I thought the idea was to demolish it and build something arts based, possibly under the Solent university umbrella. I think streetview shows it completed, opposite Guildhall Square.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I can see myself returning to pubs as I miss the social connection with friends. But I realise I have been saving money and got used to drinking less. So it will not be every Saturday and most Fridays, I have met up with friends a few times in one house and actually preferred it as it was quieter and easier to have conversations.

But if I was younger I would need the action more. Nightlife will still have a place unless everyone turns to online dating !.

Poundstretcher seems to be like a rather disorganised and poor version of B&M Bargains and Wilko's (Wilkinson).

I suspect they will go down the same route as Poundworld in the next couple of years with many stores either closing or being taken over by stronger competitors.

CJ

Yes Poundstretcher seems to be losing the plot a bit. Because I visit Cardiff and used to visit Bournemouth I am familiar with Wilko (incidentally they remind my of what Woolworths were like back in the 1970s) and B&M. Irony is that back in Croydon we don't have either, just the Poundstretcher. Croydon really is getting poorly served for its size.

I’m not sure about that. While you can now easily get groceries and other goods online, you can’t get the pub or club experience at home, and it’s something I’ve regularly heard people saying they miss this year. I feel most people go to the pub for the experience, to meet people, and get out of the house. Popular pubs were busy pre-Covid, despite being able to buy beer for half, or even quarter the price in a supermarket.

In university towns and cities, going out to a nightclub is a big part of the experience for many.

Live music is still very popular, and continues to be with the younger generations.

So, I feel the hospitality industry has more of a future than high street retail. Although, of course, hospitality is very restricted at the moment. And there sadly will be many casualties, and some towns will suffer more than others I guess.

I think the only chance traditional High Street / Town Centres have for survival is for the more social things. So pubs, clubs and restaurants - which will be busier in the evenings and maybe dead during the day. Except if there are offices then lunchtimes as well as evenings.

For Croydon we might still be getting a Westfield. It will be a replacement for the Whitgift Centre which is steadily being run down. So, unlike Hammersmith and Stratford, it is replacing existing shops so further accelerating demise I fear. Twenty years ago St Georges Walk (small shopping centre) was being run down for re-development as an extension to the Whitgift Centre. But that has finally been demolished to make way for a huge area of flats. I don't approve of Westfield and I probably will drift away from Croydon. But Westfieled is probably the only viable shopping centre in the future as it caters for families who want a day out shopping and eating.

For most town centres I feel there will be enough retail to satisfy people doing lunchtime shopping from work. Probably also demand from people with no car because the public transport routes all lead to town centres. Those people/families with a car will not bother with town centres as they already favour the out of town shopping areas with free parking.

Overall I would say Covid-19 has accelerated what was happening. But Croydon lost its only hardware store about ten years ago (Turtles). The loss of Allders meant that Croydon no longer had useful shops. So I would say that the end of traditional town centres was indicated for me fifteen years ago. I have bought a lot of hardware online for the last five years and sadly I see the same happening for clothes - somehow.

I am hard pushed to think what will be left if M&S goes. So maybe M&S is going to be THE survivor ?. The House of Fraser in Croydon really looks sad these days - so i do not see that lasting.

 

[dgl]

I suppose M&S's savior, esp. during the pandemic, is the fact that it also sells food and being essentially a posh version of ALDI/LIDL with the way it mostly sells it's own products and as such not trying to be a price leader that part if the business seems to be doing OK and might end up being used as the draw o get people to look around the rest of the shop.

 

[DB]

I suppose M&S's savior, esp. during the pandemic, is the fact that it also sells food and being essentially a posh version of ALDI/LIDL with the way it mostly sells it's own products and as such not trying to be a price leader that part if the business seems to be doing OK and might end up being used as the draw o get people to look around the rest of the shop.

Probably. They haven't been very customer-friendly though. The local one still has queueing (which Tesco hasn't had for months), and I've been challenged for 'proof' about mask exemption by the door guardian (I contacted their customer services, who said that this was not company policy).

Tend to use Tesco mostly now, who have generally been very sensible and avoided the officiousness of M&S and many other retailers.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I suppose M&S's savior, esp. during the pandemic, is the fact that it also sells food and being essentially a posh version of ALDI/LIDL with the way it mostly sells it's own products and as such not trying to be a price leader that part if the business seems to be doing OK and might end up being used as the draw o get people to look around the rest of the shop.

True. I suppose I could equally lump M&S in with the food supermarkets that sell clothes. From my limited observations the big difference between M&S and other food supermarkets is that M&S is predominantly non-food BUT also the big supermarkets only have small local food stores in town.

As an aside. I recall in the 60s-70s it being said that the supermarkets killed off the traditional corner shops. By the turn of the century many of those town centre supermarkets had been replaced with larger out of town branches. It seemed smaller independents were on the rise until the supermarket chains started plugging the gaps they left with very small/'local' food shops !.