Concerns around the "big five" tech companies and their anti-consumer practices

[py_megapixel]

...by which I mean Microsoft, Google, Apple, Facebook and Amazon. These are some of the world's largest and most profitable companies - but some of their business practices are very questionable.

Microsoft spent a decent chunk of the 1990s engaged in anti-trust lawsuits in the US regarding their attempts to establish a monopoly in PC operating systems. They ultimately lost, but clearly the damage was already done - chances are that the computer you are typing on now is running Microsoft Windows (assuming it's not a Mac, and assuming you haven't gone out of your way to install something such as Linux). This gives Microsoft an awful lot of control, which in recent years they have used to build in more and more telemetry and tracking into Windows, which can only be disabled with an insanely expensive enterprise license.

But Microsoft aren't the worst when it comes to questionable business practices, not by a long stretch. Google and Facebook collect huge amounts of data from users on a daily basis, and Amazon aggressively forces down prices and presumably also forces up profit margins, seemingly often at the expense of its workers' conditions and pay. Apple, being more of a hardware company, have less similar privacy concerns, but they do spend huge amounts of money in the US lobbying against the right for a consumer to have their devices repaired by third parties or to attempt repairs themselves.

I'm also interested to hear if any members on this forum are taking actions to try to rid their lives of these companies? Personally, I have a complete boycott of Amazon and Facebook, with the exception of WhatsApp which I have to use because I need to keep in touch with some friends who are very reluctant to switch platforms. I only use Microsoft products when I'm forced to - e.g. to join a Teams meeting - and I don't use a personal "account" with them (if I have to log in, it's with an organisation license). I have replaced Windows on my personal machine with Linux. As for Google, I do still use some of their services, but I have turned off all of the tracking and personalised advertisment options, and I try to avoid giving them more of my sensitive information than I have to.

 

[DB]

Working in IT, it is impossible to avoid Microsoft - and they are very effectively tying companies ever tighter into their services with all the interdependence which they have built in.

Worth noting that Amazon, Microsoft and (to a lesser extent) Google are the leading hosting providers, making it largely impossible to completely avoid them.

 

[birchesgreen]

I'm not bothered, if they provide a useful service i use them and if not i don't. I do like to use a mixture though, i currently use a mac and a chromebook, the latter will likely be replaced by a surface next year.

 

[py_megapixel]

Working in IT, it is impossible to avoid Microsoft - and they are very effectively tying companies ever tighter into their services with all the interdependence which they have built in.

And that's exactly the problem.

Even if you did decide "We want Microsoft out of our workflow at any cost" - it's not clear how.
Things hosted in Azure could be migrated away - but where to? Google Cloud and AWS aren't really any better ethically.

What about personal computers?
Macs? You're still stuck with Apple.
Linux? Not really stable enough for desktop use for most people.
And then you have to somehow find a replacement for Microsoft Office, SharePoint, Outlook etc.

Of course, none of this is an accident; this 'ecosystem' has been carefully crafted by Microsoft over the last couple of decades to make leaving extremely impractical.

 

[birchesgreen]

Please don't mention the S-word, my company is currently migrating to Sharepoint, ugh.

 

[87 027]

I am more comfortable with Microsoft and Apple, as technology companies who charge for their products and services, than Google and Facebook who give away their products but are notorious for hoovering up inordinate amounts of customer data for profiling and targeting.

 

[DB]

And that's exactly the problem.

Even if you did decide "We want Microsoft out of our workflow at any cost" - it's not clear how.
Things hosted in Azure could be migrated away - but where to? Google Cloud and AWS aren't really any better ethically.

What about personal computers?
Macs? You're still stuck with Apple.
Linux? Not really stable enough for desktop use for most people.
And then you have to somehow find a replacement for Microsoft Office, SharePoint, Outlook etc.

Of course, none of this is an accident; this 'ecosystem' has been carefully crafted by Microsoft over the last couple of decades to make leaving extremely impractical.

It's also difficult to avoid Office 365 subscriptions. Yes, a one off purchase Office 2019 is available, but is has all sorts of caveats - only supported with Microsoft online services until 2023 (shorter period than all previous versions), only supported on Server 2019 (365 apps are supported on 2016 too). Not as easy to manage via Intune (which has comprehensive deployment tools for 365 apps). And so on.

Then there's default save locations - trying to force Sharepoint and Onedrive: blocking these out and defaulting to local shares requires a load of fiddling with group policies.

Let's not forget phones either - and that is basically a binary choice: Google or Apple.

I manage to largely avoid Facebook, and Apple usage is fairly low, but there's really no way of avoiding the other three - they have the various business market segments pretty well sewn up.

 

[Lucan]

I have nothing directly to do with Microsoft, Facebook, Apple or Scamazon. Microsoft because of their fight against open IT standards ("our standards are the de-facto standards") and Scamazon because they are driving other sellers out of business, and because they signed Mrs Lucan up to their "Prime" whatever it is and took her money without her say-so - took her a morning on the phone to unsubscribe and get her money back. Every few days I check my cookies and nevertheless find them infested with Scamazon's; they get deleted.

I simply have no interest in Apple or Facebook. I am afraid I do use Google for their satellite view and Streetview which I find too useful. I use DuckDuckGo for searching however.

 

[GusB]

I have nothing directly to do with Microsoft, Facebook, Apple or Scamazon. Microsoft because of their fight against open IT standards ("our standards are the de-facto standards") and Scamazon because they are driving other sellers out of business, and because they signed Mrs Lucan up to their "Prime" whatever it is and took her money without her say-so - took her a morning on the phone to unsubscribe and get her money back. Every few days I check my cookies and nevertheless find them infested with Scamazon's; they get deleted.

I simply have no interest in Apple or Facebook. I am afraid I do use Google for their satellite view and Streetview which I find too useful. I use DuckDuckGo for searching however.

That would probably have been a free trial for Prime that requires cancelling before it begins to charge you. It happened to me once, but I was aware I'd be charged after a certain amount of time. It took a very short conversation with a very pleasant lady to get it sorted out and the refund was in my account the following day.

 

[DB]

That would probably have been a free trial for Prime that requires cancelling before it begins to charge you. It happened to me once, but I was aware I'd be charged after a certain amount of time. It took a very short conversation with a very pleasant lady to get it sorted out and the refund was in my account the following day.

When you are ordering things for delivery the default option will sign you up to a prime trial - you have to read the options very carefully as they are designed to steer you the way Amazon wants you to go. Once the trial period ends they will start charging.

 

[david1212]

And that's exactly the problem.

.....

Linux? Not really stable enough for desktop use for most people.
And then you have to somehow find a replacement for Microsoft Office, SharePoint, Outlook etc

......

When Microsoft announced Windows 10 and the 6 monthly upgrades I swapped to Linux.
I switch this laptop on and know I will be able to browse in a couple of minutes, no risk of ' configuring updates '. I can update Linux when I choose.

It's also difficult to avoid Office 365 subscriptions. Yes, a one off purchase Office 2019 is available, but is has all sorts of caveats - only supported with Microsoft online services until 2023 (shorter period than all previous versions), only supported on Server 2019 (365 apps are supported on 2016 too). Not as easy to manage via Intune (which has comprehensive deployment tools for 365 apps). And so on.

...

Libre Office, Thunderbird. In Linux WPS Office works well, much better than the Windows version.

At work the latest MS Office is 2013, most systems are 2010, some 2007.

 

[Lucan]

When you are ordering things for delivery the default option will sign you up to a prime trial - you have to read the options very carefully as they are designed to steer you the way Amazon wants you to go.

Sounds like it. Mrs L had previously bought a couple of things before from Scamazon, without enthusiasm, so they had her CC details. Then our daughter wanted a hair-do thingy for birthday that (like more and more things) could only be found on Scamazon. Mrs L found it and had got close to paying when the screen started nagging her to join Scamazon Prime.

There was a big "YES" button but no "No" button and she could not see any way to decline it. She spent 5 minutes back-arrowing and refreshing but it kept coming back to that "YES" button. She is internet and finance savvy and never clicked that button. Eventually she closed the browser window (by the "X" at the top right). She never bought the hair-do thing and never had any indication that she had signed up to anything (you would think it would confirm with a "Thanks" if you do). But her next CC statement showed a Scamazon Prime subscription. Neither she nor I will ever attempt to buy anything from Scamazon again. We have shut down both of our CC accountss of which Scamazon had the details.

I can only imagine that Scamazon had hi-jacked the "X" at the top right of the browser window, the one to close the application, to act as a second "YES" button. It can be done, and in fact Microsoft did that when they were nagging people to "upgrade" from Windows 7 and 8 to Windows 10. How do they get away with this on a grand scale? Simple : the majority of people have a Prime account and think it is wonderful, so Scamazon can say "Most people are satisfied with our service".

 

[py_megapixel]

When Microsoft announced Windows 10 and the 6 monthly upgrades I swapped to Linux.
I switch this laptop on and know I will be able to browse in a couple of minutes, no risk of ' configuring updates '. I can update Linux when I choose.

I also run Linux on my main computer and it works fine, usually better than Windows. But those who are comfortable with it are a minority.

It's all very well to sit here and sing the praises of Linux, but I don't think the average less computer-savvy office worker, for example, would want to switch on their computer and see a completely unfamiliar system.

Libre Office, Thunderbird. In Linux WPS Office works well, much better than the Windows version.


At work the latest MS Office is 2013, most systems are 2010, some 2007.

None of those come with Teams, SharePoint, mail hosting, and I don't think 2007, 2010 or even possibly 2013 have MS support anymore... not saying they can't still be used, but those are reasons that businesses might prefer to avoid them.

 

[DB]

I also run Linux on my main computer and it works fine, usually better than Windows. But those who are comfortable with it are a minority.

It's all very well to sit here and sing the praises of Linux, but I don't think the average less computer-savvy office worker, for example, would want to switch on their computer and see a completely unfamiliar system.


None of those come with Teams, SharePoint, mail hosting, and I don't think 2007, 2010 or even possibly 2013 have MS support anymore... not saying they can't still be used, but those are reasons that businesses might prefer to avoid them.

Quite. There's absolutely no way I'd put a Linux machine in front of most of our users. Yes, we use it to an extent on the server side and for specific purposes, but for general desktops and laptops? No chance!

Office 2007 and 2010 are out of support, so a security risk. 2013 is in support at the moment in terms of updates, but compatibility with Office 365 online services is no longer guaranteed, so if for example you have Microsoft-hosted mailboxes you might suddenly find that some function in Outlook no longer works properly with the mailbox.

 

[nlogax]

It's all very well to sit here and sing the praises of Linux, but I don't think the average less computer-savvy office worker, for example, would want to switch on their computer and see a completely unfamiliar system.

Indeed. There have been attempts to turn Linux into something for domestic markets. Usually they looked like XP but never a success. Answer to 'what year will be the year of Linux on the desktop?' is invariably 'never'.

 

[36270k]

Being now retired from many years of IT support ( All versions of Windows, servers, networks and Oracle databases) ,
I often get calls for help from friends and neighbours.

On 2 occasions recently I have been asked to look at failed Windows 10 laptops, One was hardware failure ( I fitted a new hard disk for them) and the other would not boot.
While fixing them , I loaned them an old laptop that ran Linux Centos 7 with Firefox for internet, Thunderbird email and Libreoffice.
Both users had no problem at all with them. These were users that were familiar with Windows 7 and Windows 10

A problem with both machines was that they did not come with any Windows 10 recovery media ( quite common )

When the machines were repaired, both users asked me to set them up the same as the loan machine.

 

[DB]

Which is fine until they want to install itunes, or some specific office addins for work...

Generic windows 10 media can be created using the tool on the Microsoft site. This is actually the better option anyway as it generates at the latest feature update level, can have the correct region settings and has no manufacturer's crapware!

 

[py_megapixel]

Generic windows 10 media can be created using the tool on the Microsoft site. This is actually the better option anyway as it generates at the latest feature update level, can have the correct region settings and has no manufacturer's crapware!

Unless you want "ACTIVATE WINDOWS" in the bottom of the screen, do you not then also have to buy a separate license? Or does it somehow activate automatically?

 

[DB]

Unless you want "ACTIVATE WINDOWS" in the bottom of the screen, do you not then also have to buy a separate license? Or does it somehow activate automatically?

Big box manufacturers inject the key into the firmware and have since windows 8. With anything else, it registers a hardware hash with Microsoft on first activation, and on subsequent reinstallls will automatically activate assuming no major hardware changes (hard drive replacement doesn't stop it activating).

Windows 7 and 8 keys can also be used to activate Windows 10, abd any activated 7 or 8 installation can be upgraded to 10 and will automatically activate.

Only thing to be aware of is to install the right version, e.g. if the hash has been registered for the home edition, only that will automatically activate, not the pro version (you would need a key code to activate that).

 

[talltim]

Thing is for businesses, there tends to be no other options to Microsoft if you want any form of control over user accounts and PCs and integration between various things. Even if you ignore user familarity, Linux has no real substitutes for Active Directory and Group Policy, which as an admin, are the killer apps for me.

 

[DB]

Thing is for businesses, there tends to be no other options to Microsoft if you want any form of control over user accounts and PCs and integration between various things. Even if you ignore user familarity, Linux has no real substitutes for Active Directory and Group Policy, which as an admin, are the killer apps for me.

Yes, I agree. Intune is also very useful for managing laptops. In most cases there really isn't any viable alternative to Microsoft for the client side of IT - which isn't a good thing as it allows them to force pretty much whetever changes they want due to having a virtual monopoly, but that's how it is...

 

[squizzler]

The Apple silicon macs that have just been introduced strike me as the computing world's equivalent of the Virgin Pendolino.

The British Rail APT was the result of a massive research and development programme but was underfunded and released prematurely where it flopped. Years later, Virgin Trains introduced it as the Pendolino. Because it was backed up by the massive PR and marketing machine of the Branson empire, and the technology itself had developed in the meantime, the Italian built Pendolinos were very successful.

The ARM processor architecture that underpins the new apple silicon machines was developed in the 1980s by Acorn computers and the Acorn Archimedes was a desktop computer powered by ARM processors. Whilst the computer was very good for the era, it never had the software support and was unable to prevail at the time against the dominant IBM compatible PCs. Now however the marketing power of Apple means they are, like Alstom withe their trains, able to sell us back groundbreaking British developed technology and make all the profit.

To make matters worse, the British ARM firm has been sold to an American chip manufacturer.

 

[DB]

The Apple silicon macs that have just been introduced strike me as the computing world's equivalent of the Virgin Pendolino.

The British Rail APT was the result of a massive research and development programme but was underfunded and released prematurely where it flopped. Years later, Virgin Trains introduced it as the Pendolino. Because it was backed up by the massive PR and marketing machine of the Branson empire, and the technology itself had developed in the meantime, the Italian built Pendolinos were very successful.

The ARM processor architecture that underpins the new apple silicon machines was developed in the 1980s by Acorn computers and the Acorn Archimedes was a desktop computer powered by ARM processors. Whilst the computer was very good for the era, it never had the software support and was unable to prevail at the time against the dominant IBM compatible PCs. Now however the marketing power of Apple means they are, like Alstom withe their trains, able to sell us back groundbreaking British developed technology and make all the profit.

To make matters worse, the British ARM firm has been sold to an American chip manufacturer.

Maybe. It's not clear yet how successful Apple's move away from Intel processors will be.

 

[py_megapixel]

To make matters worse, the British ARM firm has been sold to an American chip manufacturer.

I view that as a significantly better outcome than it being sold to some random holdings company, which is what happens to a lot of things unfortunately.
At least nVidia are actually a manufacturer of computer chips, so they have some idea how to run that type of business.

 

[birchesgreen]

The Apple silicon macs that have just been introduced strike me as the computing world's equivalent of the Virgin Pendolino.

The British Rail APT was the result of a massive research and development programme but was underfunded and released prematurely where it flopped. Years later, Virgin Trains introduced it as the Pendolino. Because it was backed up by the massive PR and marketing machine of the Branson empire, and the technology itself had developed in the meantime, the Italian built Pendolinos were very successful.

The ARM processor architecture that underpins the new apple silicon machines was developed in the 1980s by Acorn computers and the Acorn Archimedes was a desktop computer powered by ARM processors. Whilst the computer was very good for the era, it never had the software support and was unable to prevail at the time against the dominant IBM compatible PCs. Now however the marketing power of Apple means they are, like Alstom withe their trains, able to sell us back groundbreaking British developed technology and make all the profit.

To make matters worse, the British ARM firm has been sold to an American chip manufacturer.

The comparison doesn't work 100%, ARM the company was set up by Acorn, VLSI and... Apple. They were the majority shareholder for a long time until they sold most of their stake in the late 90s.