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Cost Comparisons: Why is one project seemingly much cheaper despite involving much more work?

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21C101

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Can anyone explain to me why the following can be done for only £26 million:

New Passing Loop at Brading with signalling.
"New" loop platform at Brading with new step free exit to road.
Lowering track/raising platforms at eight stations.
New electrical substation gear at three stations.
Extensive track renewals
Depot upgrade for new trains
Training of staff
Signalling upgrade installing TPWS
Various other measures.

And, by contrast, this costs £34 million:

One new two platform Psrkway station near Ramsgate
 
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The Planner

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Land and ancillary costs at Ramsgate? Where does it day all of the first bit is £26mill?
 

21C101

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Land and ancillary costs at Ramsgate? Where does it day all of the first bit is £26mill?
Here among other places. It is a widely quoted figure:

"The track upgrade will include a new passing loop at Brading and enhancements to improve ride quality, operator South Western Railway said.
The previously-announced investment package includes £25m from the Department for Transport and a further £1m from Solent Local Enterprise Partnership and the island council."

 

Domh245

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I think the new trains are included in that £26 million cost too!

I suspect that land costs will be a large part of the high price at Ramsgate (quite a large development by the look of it?), whereas there's no new land needed for the Island line upgrade. The fact as well that Island line has ceased to be an operational railway for the next 3 months (and can therefore be worked on during normal hours at cheaper cost) will play a part compared to working on and around a live railway at Ramsgate
 

21C101

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I think the new trains are included in that £26 million cost too!

I suspect that land costs will be a large part of the high price at Ramsgate (quite a large development by the look of it?), whereas there's no new land needed for the Island line upgrade. The fact as well that Island line has ceased to be an operational railway for the next 3 months (and can therefore be worked on during normal hours at cheaper cost) will play a part compared to working on and around a live railway at Ramsgate
On new trains I left them out because as they will be leased I would imagine that the yearly leasing charge will come out of revenue not capital expenditure so wont be included in the £26 million.

I agree three month shutdown will help reduce costs however @Bald Rick stated on the Okehampton thread recently that this only saves a proportionally small amount.
 

Bald Rick

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Well, what I said in the Okehampton thread was that it wouldn’t cost 3 times as much to build a station on an open line than a closed line. But I did say it would cost ‘a little’ more, because the big difference is where you have to do work right next to the track, ie platforms etc. That’s for building new stations. For work on the track, there is a definite saving in longer closures.

In this case, Thanet Parkway is going to have 12 car platforms, which will need closures to build. I’m fairly sure there will need to be some signalling changes too. Perhaps most importantly, it’s a big station the footbridge and lifts (I’m assuming lifts, seems reasonable) will be the thick end of £5m, the car park and highway amendments another £5m at least - which I’m sure will be more effort and cost than all the track renewal on the IoW. There will also be a fair bit of utilities work which is never cheap.

For the IoW, an extended closure will definitely help. To put it in context, whilst I don’t know the detailed scope of the work it doesn’t actually look to be that much, and I guess it could all have been done in a series of weekend blocks, and probably not many at that. A track lowering through a short platform is a day’s work. Installing a short loop (100m?) is two weekends at most. A new short platform - a couple of weekends, and some overnight works for finishing. However this all assumes 24 hour working at weekends. By closing the line it can be Mon - Fri day shift only, with a smaller workforce, which reduces the wage bill.

I suspect the reason for the long block is more to do with the trains and their compatibility with the infrastructure. Clearly with platforms being lifted etc, you couldn’t run the service with the old trains, or the new trains, with the work part done. So you have to programme it such that all the works are done in one go. Then there will be integration and compatibility testing for the new kit, plus all the training. That alone will be several weeks. Once the railway is going to be closed for an extended period, it makes sense to make the work within the closure to be delivered as cost effectively as possible.

So, to answer the original question - in terms of effort (quantity of material, working hours, etc) I’d say there isn’t much difference between the two projects. But there is definitely an efficiency for the IoW in taking the time to build it slowly, mostly in weekday day time hours, compared to Thanet where a decent proportion of the work will have to be when trains aren’t running at weekends.
 

ABB125

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Well, what I said in the Okehampton thread was that it wouldn’t cost 3 times as much to build a station on an open line than a closed line. But I did say it would cost ‘a little’ more, because the big difference is where you have to do work right next to the track, ie platforms etc. That’s for building new stations. For work on the track, there is a definite saving in longer closures.

In this case, Thanet Parkway is going to have 12 car platforms, which will need closures to build. I’m fairly sure there will need to be some signalling changes too. Perhaps most importantly, it’s a big station the footbridge and lifts (I’m assuming lifts, seems reasonable) will be the thick end of £5m, the car park and highway amendments another £5m at least - which I’m sure will be more effort and cost than all the track renewal on the IoW. There will also be a fair bit of utilities work which is never cheap.

For the IoW, an extended closure will definitely help. To put it in context, whilst I don’t know the detailed scope of the work it doesn’t actually look to be that much, and I guess it could all have been done in a series of weekend blocks, and probably not many at that. A track lowering through a short platform is a day’s work. Installing a short loop (100m?) is two weekends at most. A new short platform - a couple of weekends, and some overnight works for finishing. However this all assumes 24 hour working at weekends. By closing the line it can be Mon - Fri day shift only, with a smaller workforce, which reduces the wage bill.

I suspect the reason for the long block is more to do with the trains and their compatibility with the infrastructure. Clearly with platforms being lifted etc, you couldn’t run the service with the old trains, or the new trains, with the work part done. So you have to programme it such that all the works are done in one go. Then there will be integration and compatibility testing for the new kit, plus all the training. That alone will be several weeks. Once the railway is going to be closed for an extended period, it makes sense to make the work within the closure to be delivered as cost effectively as possible.

So, to answer the original question - in terms of effort (quantity of material, working hours, etc) I’d say there isn’t much difference between the two projects. But there is definitely an efficiency for the IoW in taking the time to build it slowly, mostly in weekday day time hours, compared to Thanet where a decent proportion of the work will have to be when trains aren’t running at weekends.
I'm curious as to why a 300-space car park and a simple left in left out junction* would cost around £5 million. Is it something to do with the ground conditions perhaps?
Here's the plan.

*Incidentally it's refreshing to see they haven't decided to just plonk a roundabout onto the A299. Although if the road began with an M rather than an A, not doubt it would be a roundabout (or two)!
 

bluenoxid

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I might have the wrong figure in my head but the finger in the air guesstimate for a car parking space was £20k IIRC, so £6m would be about right.

How much of the £34m has been swallowed up by design and business case costs?
 

ABB125

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I might have the wrong figure in my head but the finger in the air guesstimate for a car parking space was £20k IIRC, so £6m would be about right.
Ah ok, seems quite expensive when you could have a space made at home for a few hundred pounds. What happened to economy of scale? :D
How much of the £34m has been swallowed up by design and business case costs?
Probably more than necessary...
 

alistairlees

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I do recall the rule of thumb for parking spacing spaces being £10k each, and that was back in 2006.

The station is on an elevated site, so building platforms here may be more difficult / expensive. Lifts are required, but no footbridge, as the existing under bridge is being used.

There appears to be no significant station buildings (but passive provision provided) - just eight platform waiting shelters.

Some signalling cabinets to be moved.

Crossing the water main / drainage might add a bit.
 

Sod

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With regard to the works on the Isle of Wight, there is surely another cost factor to bear in mind, namely the need to transport the specialised permanent way equipment over to the island by ferry in a timely fashion. It is not as if it can simply be wheeled out of a convenient siding nearby when required.
 

edwin_m

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Despite being from an ad-infested local news site, this article actually seems to make some sense (give or take spelling and grammar...):
Thanet Parkway Station costs expected to spiral to £34.5million – The Isle Of Thanet News
The document says: “Efforts will be made to reduce the cost of the scheme, especially the level crossing works, through reduction of the contingency which is still at a high level due to the current stage of design.”

The costs comprose of:

  • £19.99m for the station and car park (at 80% probability and inclusive of 11% contingency);
  • £10.20m for the level crossing upgrades (at 10% probability and inclusive of 57% contingency – this level of contingency is standard industry practice with work at GRIP1 stage);
  • £4.14m for other costs including the highway junction works, archaeological mitigation works, land purchase, planning costs, legal costs and fees.
The document also states that the government’s Local Growth Fund award could be withdrawn if the entire project costs cannot be met.
So it appears the level crossing works have been identified as needed at a late stage, and they are still at an early stage of design so have a high level of contingency included. It doesn't say why the level crossings have to be modified.
 

Bald Rick

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I'm curious as to why a 300-space car park and a simple left in left out junction* would cost around £5 million. Is it something to do with the ground conditions perhaps?
Here's the plan.

Surface car parks are £10-£15k a space, this has 317. Then there the forecourt and Highway works.

Ah ok, seems quite expensive when you could have a space made at home for a few hundred pounds. What happened to economy of scale? :D

I’ve built drives myself, and none have ever come close to a few hundred pounds a space, even when I’m doing all the work myself!
 

Energy

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For IoW they can easily switch of power (they will have to as they are converting 630v to 750v) and do work during the day without worry of disruption due to the several month closure, which to be fair hasn't caused much disruption as the 483s were struggling to run a service due to their age.

Bit disappointed that they haven't bothered to fit ETCS, instead choosing TPWS for the signalling upgrades.
 
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