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Cost of bi-modes v's wiring-up

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dosxuk

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So is the best option to keep running diesels on the MML whilst we wait for the whole thing to be wired? Or get some bi-modes in for now, with the option to either remove the diesel engines once the wires reach Sheffield or to cascade the 810s elsewhere and order some pure-electric replacements? I'd rather we did the latter
The answer would be to have got the electrification going 15+ years ago when all the reviews were coming out saying it had a positive business case, so that by the time the HSTs had to be replaced it was finished and new all electric stock could have been purchased.

Sure, the methods being used to generate the business cases have now been proven to be a bit unreliable(!), but the MML had a far better case than that of the GWML. But then it got cancelled because of these magic new bi-mode trains (that are definitely not diesels, because that would be against the government's environment targets) will mean electrification is pointless, even though the new trains will only be able to run at the existing speeds for about 40 miles on electric.

Bi-modes are just a symptom of the short-termism that rules the roost these days. Bodge the issue we have now for as little cost as possible and allow for a good game of can-kicking and hopefully make the spending the money someone else's problem.
 
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Mikey C

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Passenger experience also needs to come into the equation, as a poor experience for passengers will drive them towards other forms of transport, resulting in lower income, and therefore less money available going forwards

Whilst I agree the electification 'programmes' (I was trying to think of another word that conveys much less organisation and forethought but couldn't) are a mess, we need to look at where we are today.

Bi-Modes are more pleasent than the equivilent DMU, as anyone who has experienced the 180's to London on Hull trains will vouch for. For the majority of the journey no noisy diesel engine under the floor of your carriage.

Bi-Modes allow through services to unwired destinations, these are valuable to elderly, disabled, and those with heavy luggage, and those who dont fit these categories appreciate them for convenience.

Flexibility in times of disruption

The problem with electrification is that it is very disruptive whilst its in progress, and its a big up front cost, bi-modes get round this. Its probably the best solution for where we are now, the money for major electrification schemes isnt going to be available, and although long term costs may be higher, they are probably lower than staying diesel under wires.

As for environmental impact, at a national level I suspect that there is not much to choose as generating electricity creates various emmisions, even wind power uses resources in the construction. Locally air quality will be improved, e.g. major city centre stations, which are more likely to be wired.

So if you take where we are today we can afford bi-modes, we dont as a country have the appetite for major electrification, even although if you took the long view it may work out slightly cheaper. (although if you factor in all hidden costs it may not even be cheaper)

Maybe the solution is to find a cheaper/simpler/quicker to deliver electrification solution for non high speed lines (100mph max) but that would be a different thread. (some form of protected 3rd rail at 1200-1500v DC maybe, with modern electronics producing multi voltage rolling stock is simple to deliver). I agree 25kV overhead is the gold standard, but if you cant afford it you settle for something less. When shopping for a new car I will look longingly at something costing £200k, but settle for a £17k one because it does all I need of it, the same constraints apply at a national level.
The Avanti Bimodes are another positive example that will remove the nonsense of 221s running long distances under the wires and remove a few diesels from New Street and Euston
 

37424

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Given that they have managed eliminate HST's with electrification to Corby and bringing in a few 180's, and that the remaining diesel fleet is largely PRM compliant and should good for at least another 5 to 10 years, then it does beg the question is whether full Midland Electrification should have been given the go ahead instead of redesigned Bi-modes, you could have gone for simple straight electrics then, and in any case under HS2 current proposals part of the route into Sheffield will need electrifying anyway.

There is no doubt that Bi-modes are offering significant reductions in Diesel under the wires running, but to a degree they are also a bit of cop out regarding electrification, although I don't entirely blame the government given Network Rail electrification performance.
 
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Annetts key

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Breakdown of the National Grid fuel type power generation production as percentages, as at 2021/05/14 08:20 this morning: IC Nem: 2.77, IC Ew: 0.00, IC Irl: 0.00, IC Ned: 0.00, IC2 France: 2.75, IC France: 5.57, Other: 1.16, Hydro: 2.15, Pumped Hydro: 3.46, Ocgt: 0.0805, Oil: 0.00, Coal: 2.69, Solar (estimated): 3.72, Wind: 4.49, Biomass: 8.24, Ccgt: 53.0, Nuclear: 9.89.

However, the average (per day) for the past year are:
Fossil fuels (mostly gas) 12.5 GW, 42%,
Renewable (mostly wind) 7.5 GW, 25.2%
Other (mostly nuclear) 7.63 GW, 25.7%

The amount of fossil fuel used very much depends on the availability of renewable energy from wind and solar at any particular time.

Have a look at this screenshot from 13th March earlier this year. At this time wind power was at 12.75 GW (49.14%) and gas was 3.88 GW (14.95%), coal was zero. Granted, this was late at night when electricity demand was low. But it does show that wind power is capable of being a very significant energy source.
 

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stuu

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Bjorn Lomborg has pointed out that if the world does spend trillions to carry out the decarbonisation plan, it will make the planet cooler by only a tiny fraction of a degree by the end of the century. Furthermore, China has stated that it will continue to increase its carbon dioxide emissions for the foreseeble future, and it already produces more than any other country. So we need realistic alternatives. Advancements in nuclear technology (molten salt reactors, thorium), being developed now, promise to solve the energy problem within a few decades.
Yes but his views are not shared by the enormous majority of the world's climate scientists. For a reason.

China is investing staggering sums in renewable energy and electrification of transport. E.g Shenzhen has an entirely electric bus network, with 10,000 electric buses. China has also committed to CO2 reductions from 2030, which is definitely in the foreseeable future.

People have gone on about thorium since the 70s, it's always just around the corner, not unlike nuclear fusion. Nuclear has a place but its not the only answer
 

Ediswan

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People have gone on about thorium since the 70s, it's always just around the corner, not unlike nuclear fusion.
The big difference between thorium and fusion is that thorium has been made to produce useful amounts of power. I agree that it always seems to be 'in XX years'.
 

Grumpy Git

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Breakdown of the National Grid fuel type power generation production as percentages, as at 2021/05/14 08:20 this morning: IC Nem: 2.77, IC Ew: 0.00, IC Irl: 0.00, IC Ned: 0.00, IC2 France: 2.75, IC France: 5.57, Other: 1.16, Hydro: 2.15, Pumped Hydro: 3.46, Ocgt: 0.0805, Oil: 0.00, Coal: 2.69, Solar (estimated): 3.72, Wind: 4.49, Biomass: 8.24, Ccgt: 53.0, Nuclear: 9.89.

However, the averages for the past year are:
Fossil fuels (mostly gas) 12.5 GW, 42%,
Renewable (mostly wind) 7.5 GW, 25.2%
Other (mostly nuclear) 7.63 GW, 25.7%

The amount of fossil fuel used very much depends on the availability of renewable energy from wind and solar at any particular time.

Have a look at this screenshot from 13th March earlier this year. At this time wind power was at 12.75 GW (49.14%) and gas was 3.88 GW (14.95%), coal was zero. Granted, this was late at night when electricity demand was low. But it does show that wind power is capable of being a very significant energy source.

Off topic warning: the biggest problem with wind power, is when it's really cold in the winter it's due to high pressure and clear skies, ..................... and absolutely no wind.
 

Annetts key

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Off topic warning: the biggest problem with wind power, is when it's really cold in the winter it's due to high pressure and clear skies, ..................... and absolutely no wind.
Which is why wind on it’s own cannot be the only solution. And why energy efficiency is also important. And that includes the railway being energy efficient. Hence why it is good practice to maximise the use of energy efficient electronic trains running on electrified lines.

Bi-modes are IMHO a stop gap. Do they serve a useful purpose, of course the answer is yes. But like others here, I fear that because they will be seen as ‘problem solved’ by the politicians for the next twenty to thirty years, no serious effort and not enough money will be put into extending the amount of electrified lines in the mainland U.K.

Regardless of the use of bi-modes, the mainland U.K. really does need to find ways of significantly increasing the route mileage of electrified lines.
 

Nottingham59

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the MML had a far better case than that of the GWML
The full MML electrification only had a such a good business case because the calculations simply compared the 60-year cashflows of full electrification against keeping diesels for everything that ran north of Bedford. They published the spreadsheets showing the actual BCR calculations, though I can't find them online now.

This gave a positive 60-year cashflow figure because they assumed no electrification or upgrade costs south of Bedford, so getting the cash benefits of full electrification to Sheffield aginst the cost of electrifying only half the route.

As soon as you put bi-modes into the mix, the calculations change completely; bimodes can exploit exsting OHLE, and any new investment needs to stand on its own merits.

6tph north of Bedford justified electrifying to Kettering; 4tph north of Market Harborough doesn't. Maybe if you add a carbon levy to rail diesel fuel, then the cost-benefit analysis would change. Or politics will over-ride rational financial cost-benefit analysis, as it does elsewhere on the rail network.
 

O L Leigh

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Whilst I get your frustration, O L Leigh, the whole industry has actually achieved quite a lot.

I don't disbelieve you. It only requires the evidence of my eyes to see that.

However, as they say in all the adverts for financial products, past performance is no guarantee of future success. That things were done in the past does not necessarily suggest that they will continue to do so in the future. I will wait to see just what happens with regards to the DfT's position regarding rail electrification, specifically on routes where bi-modes have been/will be deployed.

As an aside, I presume that rail electrification north of the border comes under the aegis of Transport Scotland rather than the Westminster based DfT. As such, it would seem that they are able to exercise the sort of strategic vision that I am hoping the DfT will start to show.

That would be the Boris who, earlier this month, used a private helicopter owned by JCB to travel from London to Stourbridge for a brief PR appearance with Andy Street.

Thank you, but I need no lessons on the mendacity of politicians.
 

JamesT

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The big difference between thorium and fusion is that thorium has been made to produce useful amounts of power. I agree that it always seems to be 'in XX years'.
Thorium isn't as good at producing nuclear weapons, which was an important criteria for many of the early reactors. After that, Uranium had somewhat of an 'incumbent effect', where it was just easier to make more of what you're already used to rather than going off in a new direction/
 

JamesT

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Given that they have managed eliminate HST's with electrification to Corby and bringing in a few 180's, and that the remaining diesel fleet is largely PRM compliant and should good for at least another 5 to 10 years, then it does beg the question is whether full Midland Electrification should have been given the go ahead instead of redesigned Bi-modes, you could have gone for simple straight electrics then, and in any case under HS2 current proposals part of the route into Sheffield will need electrifying anyway.

There is no doubt that Bi-modes are offering significant reductions in Diesel under the wires running, but to a degree they are also a bit of cop out regarding electrification, although I don't entirely blame the government given Network Rail electrification performance.
Wasn't a large part of the choice to prioritise GWML over MML for electrification the fact that a large chunk of the MML fleet was already relatively modern? Rather than procuring another fleet of largely diesel-powered replacements for the GWR HSTs, the opportunity was there to go for more electric rolling stock tied into an electrified line?
 

O L Leigh

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There is no doubt that Bi-modes are offering significant reductions in Diesel under the wires running, but to a degree they are also a bit of cop out regarding electrification, although I don't entirely blame the government given Network Rail electrification performance.

Agreed, and I do see the benefit in that. However, like you, I think it would be nice to spread the benefit of this by also reducing the amount of diesel running away from the wires too. 4tph north of Market Harborough may seem an insufficiently large number to "justify" wiring further north, but the EMR local fleet is surely due for replacement in the near future and replacing it with Cl755s or similar would bolster the usage of the electrified sections further adding to the justification. It's all about spreading the joy, or so I'm told up-thread.

Apologies - it wasn't meant as a correction!

Accepted. We're all friends here. :)
 
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Energy

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Wasn't a large part of the choice to prioritise GWML over MML for electrification the fact that a large chunk of the MML fleet was already relatively modern? Rather than procuring another fleet of largely diesel-powered replacements for the GWR HSTs, the opportunity was there to go for more electric rolling stock tied into an electrified line?
I would imagine serving Wales also made it more popular within the government.
 

Nottingham59

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Except it does...
Does it? So what's the BCR of electrifying between Market Harborugh and Clay Cross? Given that all the premium London-bound traffic from Sheffield, Chesterfield and most of Derby / Nottingham will be going via HS2 well within the 60-year horizon of such an investment. Far better financial and air quality returns spending the capital on electrifying all the suburban lines into Birmingham and Leeds.
 

O L Leigh

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If we're concerned about the justification of electrification schemes, how about this?

The existing bi-mode model is diesel and electric, but if it was changed to battery and electric charged from the overheads it would help to bring more services in under the heading of "electric" than would otherwise be the case. This could be especially beneficial for feeder/local services operating partially under the wires, reducing diesel services further so that the benefits of running off the overheads could be spread into areas not directly connected to the electrified network. The more services that we bring into range of this type of operation the greater the impact of rail electrification.

It's just spit-balling, but given the nature of this forum I don't see the harm.
 

Bald Rick

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So what's the BCR of electrifying between Market Harborugh and Clay Cross?

Not public knowledge, and I’m not telling.


Far better financial and air quality returns spending the capital on electrifying all the suburban lines into Birmingham and Leeds.

How do you know if you don’t know the BCR of the MML? Where can I find the feasibility studies and business cases for electrifying the suburban lines into Birmingham and Leeds?
 

Mikey C

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The full MML electrification only had a such a good business case because the calculations simply compared the 60-year cashflows of full electrification against keeping diesels for everything that ran north of Bedford. They published the spreadsheets showing the actual BCR calculations, though I can't find them online now.

This gave a positive 60-year cashflow figure because they assumed no electrification or upgrade costs south of Bedford, so getting the cash benefits of full electrification to Sheffield aginst the cost of electrifying only half the route.

As soon as you put bi-modes into the mix, the calculations change completely; bimodes can exploit exsting OHLE, and any new investment needs to stand on its own merits.

6tph north of Bedford justified electrifying to Kettering; 4tph north of Market Harborough doesn't. Maybe if you add a carbon levy to rail diesel fuel, then the cost-benefit analysis would change. Or politics will over-ride rational financial cost-benefit analysis, as it does elsewhere on the rail network.
I assume those number are assuming that the ONLY trains using the wires north of MH will the East Midlands ones, but once you start replacing all the regional and cross country trains with bimodes, then the number of trains using the wires increases significantly
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Maybe the solution is to find a cheaper/simpler/quicker to deliver electrification solution for non high speed lines (100mph max) but that would be a different thread. (some form of protected 3rd rail at 1200-1500v DC maybe, with modern electronics producing multi voltage rolling stock is simple to deliver). I agree 25kV overhead is the gold standard, but if you cant afford it you settle for something less. When shopping for a new car I will look longingly at something costing £200k, but settle for a £17k one because it does all I need of it, the same constraints apply at a national level.
25kV isn't the gold standard but we've managed to over engineer the product we installed in the 1960's over 1000's of miles which is still standing up doing its job to the massive structures that GWEP have installed and priced it out of the market is the issue.

I also find it appalling that on East West Rail ministers are suggesting that including electrification will delay delivery and cost too much. If we can't deliver on a greenfield route like this doesn't bode well for other lines until the Hydrogen solution has proven to be non viable for most routes.
 

Bald Rick

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Is the BCR based on the consultants costs or average Network Rail electrification overspend costs?

The Network Rail assured estimate* at the stage of development the project is at.

*based on actual elementary costs of recent electrification, including the MML from Bedford to Corby.
 

tbtc

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Hull trains ordering 802 is a perfect example where bimodes make a lot of sense, as they can use the wires all the way up the ECML, then only switch to diesel on the unelectrified part. The branch to Hull will get wired eventually, but will never be at the top of the priority list, so would be several years away, even with a better rolling programme of wiring.

Hull is a good example.

The HT service isn't frequent enough to justify wiring the route north of Doncaster (and to get the benefit of allowing the Northern services from Doncaster to Hull to move to electric you'd have to wire both the "via Goole" and "via Selby" lines plus do the route from Doncaster to Sheffield... and if you're going to do all of that then you might as well do various other schemes... all of which pushes the price to an eye watering level that the Government won't want to pay for)

But order bi-modes and you've got a round trip of around three hundred and fifty miles on electric mode, remove a lot of air pollution from London, smoother journey etc

The alternative would be to trim such services back to (e.g.) London - Doncaster with passenger having to change for Hull (or to run diesels all the way into London)

I am disappointed that we find ourselves in a situation where bi-mode is considered necessary. I really feel that we should have had a greater proportion of our network wired by now than we have. However, this is where we find ourselves now

Ideally, we'd have wired every main line in a follow on from the WCML

But, since we didn't, how do we solve the fact that some busy main lines are still wire-free?

In the case of the MML, wiring all the way to Sheffield is too long term and too expensive for current politicians, but at least bi-modes can give us some benefits in the short term whilst providing some justification for piecemeal projects in the medium term (e.g. there's still some benefit to wiring as far as Leicester, then as far as Derby...)

If we wait for full electrification (and run pure diesels in the meantime) then we're going to be polluting the air a lot more than if we at least use electric mode on part of the journey

Over 10 years ago I predicted on this forum that bi-mode would be used as an excuse not to electrify, and this was borne out by the DfT who said that the use of bi-mode trains would mean that passengers would not have to put up with the inconvenience of electrification works

I think it's more a case that the GWML project was taking too much time and money, so bi-modes were a useful bit of PR to cover embarrassment.

But if we'd not had bi-modes then what would the solution have been? Cut the long distance services back to London - Didcot (just like the Oxford stoppers)? Or wire as far as Didcot before the money runs out and then continue running diesel trains all the way to London because we only want trains that are either "pure" diesel or "pure" electric?

What worries me is that the DfT lacks the strategic vision and will to actually do any of this stuff. As much as I agree with the supposition and theorising, the final say sits with the DfT and it is they, by their words and deeds, who will prove these theories and suppositions correct. Given their public pronouncements so far on the future of electrification and the role of bi- mode, I don’t hold out a lot of hope

The binary "diesel" / "electric" options mean that you are relying on some long term strategic plan with huge sums of money.

Based on Governments over my lifetime, I can't see any colour of party throwing such sums at the railway to do what you want (much as I'd like to believe it)

Bi-modes allow for smaller scale projects that still deliver some improvements and create some kind of virtuous circle (e.g. by the time you've wired the MML to Leicester then the cost of wiring Birmingham - Leicester becomes a lot cheaper since the hard work has already been done at the big stations, so all you're doing is the "countryside")

Whilst we wait for some enlightened Prime Minister who funds projects that will take a generation to deliver and gives the railway the kind of autonomy usually only found with Sir Topham Hat, we could be getting on with the kind of improvements that bi-modes permit, which deliver benefits much faster and can be targeted to deliver little wins around the country (instead of spending hundreds of millions of pounds in just one region - e.g. you could wire up a few key areas around the UK to remove diesel fumes from big cities and allow bi-mode trains to run on diesel through rural areas where air pollution is less of an issue)

You don't think that the Government has strategic vision, yet you are against the option that would allow us to improve things without requiring such forward thinking Government.

Don't forget freight. There is no option for heavy haul freight except electrification if it is inevitable that diesel traction has to end.

The problem I have with using freight as justification for electrification is that, even when there's a wholly wired freight flow, we often use diesels (sometimes because the flow interworks with other services, sometimes because it isn't worth having one electric loco dedicated to one flow)

Plus then there's the complication of wiring entire yards etc
 

Annetts key

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Don't forget freight. There is no option for heavy haul freight except electrification if it is inevitable that diesel traction has to end.
That raises an interesting question. As the number of internal combustion engined vehicles reduces on the roads, at first, the cost of fuel should not be affected too much. It could even fall. But once oil refineries and production facilities start to shut, close or reduce capacity (due to a lack of mass market), the cost of diesel may well rise.

I don’t currently see any solution for alternative power for heavy lorries on the roads, other than ICE. So presumably there will still be a small market for diesel fuel. But I don’t see anything but the price going up in the future, as the market shrinks.
 

Bald Rick

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I don’t currently see any solution for alternative power for heavy lorries on the roads, other than ICE. So presumably there will still be a small market for diesel fuel.

Agreed in the medium term, albeit the market won’t be that small. HGV diesel consumption is about 25-30% of all road diesel consumption.

But I don’t see anything but the price going up in the future, as the market shrinks.

The price will go up, but that’s a long way away. It’s a global market.
 
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