Court date fast approaching(southeastern railway)

[Nmulah1]

Hello everyone,

i was just hoping you could give me abit of advice, some time in December i travelled from Canterbury west to st Pancras however i only bought a online ticket for Stratford international to st Pancras so that i could get out of the barriers at st Pancras however the train missed Stratford as it was already running late and what to catch up, as a result when i put my ticket in the barriers it was rejected. I was told to speak to someone in plain clothes(revenue protection officer) not station staff she interviewed me and i said that “ i paid for a cash ticket from Canterbury west to st Pancras but station staff at Canterbury told me that the train wasn’t stopping at Stratford so my safest bet was to take the train to St Pancras then change.” However, she didn’t fully believe this and still placed me under caution i was in abit of a rush so signed the interview and was on my way expecting to receive a fine in the post. As i do not stay at my london address i did not see any of there letters until april 7th with a court date on april the 21st. I immediately wrote and out of cout settlement letter offering to pay the full fare plus any fees and sent it off by next day tracking it was received however i have not heard anything back and my court date is around the corner. I know that apparently i may be to come to an agreement with the prosecutor before the case but i still do not know whether i should plead guilty or not.

might i also add that this is my first time ever getting caught so didn’t understand the process i thought i would just have to pay the fine on the spot if caught, however the revenue protection officer did not offer this option but did write on the statement that she asked me” was i aware that i did not have the means to travel before starting your journey” to which I didn’t answer, I don’t believe this to be true however it was months ago so can hardly remember.

 

[skyhigh]

under caution i was in abit of a rush so signed the interview and was on my way expecting to receive a fine in the post. As i do not stay at my london address i did not see any of there letters until april 7th with a court date on april the 21st.

So you gave them an address you wouldn't receive post at, when you were expecting to get a fine in the post?

i said that “ i paid for a cash ticket from Canterbury west to st Pancras but station staff at Canterbury told me that the train wasn’t stopping at Stratford so my safest bet was to take the train to St Pancras then change.” However, she didn’t fully believe this

I'm not surprised she didn't believe that, given you'd tried to use a ticket you'd bought online (valid between Stratford and St Pancras) at the barrier, then presumably tried to claim that you'd bought a ticket (valid from Canterbury West to Stratford) with cash that you couldn't show? Did you buy the ticket online and collect it at a machine at Canterbury West? If so, it'll have the date, time and location printed on it so it would be fairly obvious what you've done...

What did you write in your letter to them?

 

[furlong]

On the last point, people get asked a reasonably standard set of questions to find facts that correspond to components of the different offences that might have been committed. If someone knows they don't have enough money with them to pay for their journey but gets on the train and travels regardless, that can be interpreted as having deliberate "intent" not to pay. and questions are often asked to try to find that out. Intent not to pay might also be demonstrated by showing that someone ignored an earlier opportunity to pay - for example by walking past a ticket machine without using it.

As the date is close, it might be worth trying to get in touch with them by telephone. We've seen quite a few examples on this forum where SouthEastern has agreed a settlement with people.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

As @furlong suggests, try phoning them up to see if you can come to an agreement.

If, for whatever reason, you haven't come to an agreement before your court date, then I would suggest going to court. Get there early, and then try to see if you can find the prosecutor from the railway (ask the court staff for help with this) before you go into court - and see if the prosecutor will agree to settle. Even at that stage, you may be able to agree a settlement.

But the railway isn't obliged to agree a settlement, so however hard you try you may find yourself in court. How should you plead? Well, that depends on whether you are guilty of whatever you have been charged with. If you did what it says in the charge, then you are guilty and that's what you should plead. If you didn't do what it says, then you are not guilty, and that's what you should plead - but you will also have to be prepared to explain why you are not guilty. If the court disagrees then they will find you guilty*. And if you plead guilty or are found guilty you will be punished by a fine, plus prosecution costs, plus court costs, plus the amount of the fare that you should have paid. The amount of the fine depends on the level of your income, so it would be a good idea to find bank statements, payslips from work or anything that explains how much you get if you're receiving state benefits, and so on, so that you can show how much money you have coming in. If you don't do this, the court will assume that you have quite a high income and charge you quite a high fine.


*A note for regular readers: yes, I know I'm rather reversing the burden of proof here. But in practice if someone pleads not guilty, then the prosecution presents plausible evidence and the accused does not present a defence - not even challenging the prosecution's account - then it seems to me that any reasonable court will treat the prosecution's case as made and will convict. Realistically, the accused needs to actively participate to at least throw doubt on the prosecution's position.

 

[Nmulah1]

So you gave them an address you wouldn't receive post at, when you were expecting to get a fine in the post?

I'm not surprised she didn't believe that, given you'd tried to use a ticket you'd bought online (valid between Stratford and St Pancras) at the barrier, then presumably tried to claim that you'd bought a ticket (valid from Canterbury West to Stratford) with cash that you couldn't show? Did you buy the ticket online and collect it at a machine at Canterbury West? If so, it'll have the date, time and location printed on it so it would be fairly obvious what you've done...

What did you write in your letter to them

I was not asked for an address i pressume she just used the address that was on my id. I basically wrote what i haven written in here but explained that i know it is wrong and won’t do it again while offering to pay for the fare and any other costs

On the last point, people get asked a reasonably standard set of questions to find facts that correspond to components of the different offences that might have been committed. If someone knows they don't have enough money with them to pay for their journey but gets on the train and travels regardless, that can be interpreted as having deliberate "intent" not to pay. and questions are often asked to try to find that out. Intent not to pay might also be demonstrated by showing that someone ignored an earlier opportunity to pay - for example by walking past a ticket machine without using it.

As the date is close, it might be worth trying to get in touch with them by telephone. We've seen quite a few examples on this forum where SouthEastern has agreed a settlement with people.

I have not come across the phone number for the prosecutions department only PO BOX

As @furlong suggests, try phoning them up to see if you can come to an agreement.

If, for whatever reason, you haven't come to an agreement before your court date, then I would suggest going to court. Get there early, and then try to see if you can find the prosecutor from the railway (ask the court staff for help with this) before you go into court - and see if the prosecutor will agree to settle. Even at that stage, you may be able to agree a settlement.

But the railway isn't obliged to agree a settlement, so however hard you try you may find yourself in court. How should you plead? Well, that depends on whether you are guilty of whatever you have been charged with. If you did what it says in the charge, then you are guilty and that's what you should plead. If you didn't do what it says, then you are not guilty, and that's what you should plead - but you will also have to be prepared to explain why you are not guilty. If the court disagrees then they will find you guilty*. And if you plead guilty or are found guilty you will be punished by a fine, plus prosecution costs, plus court costs, plus the amount of the fare that you should have paid. The amount of the fine depends on the level of your income, so it would be a good idea to find bank statements, payslips from work or anything that explains how much you get if you're receiving state benefits, and so on, so that you can show how much money you have coming in. If you don't do this, the court will assume that you have quite a high income and charge you quite a high fine.


*A note for regular readers: yes, I know I'm rather reversing the burden of proof here. But in practice if someone pleads not guilty, then the prosecution presents plausible evidence and the accused does not present a defence - not even challenging the prosecution's account - then it seems to me that any reasonable court will treat the prosecution's case as made and will convict. Realistically, the accused needs to actively participate to at least throw doubt on the prosecution's position.

Is there anyway i can pay the fine without a criminal record, that is my main concern. Also if i plead guilty as it is my first offence is there anyway they will allow me to just pay the fine and not get a criminal record?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Is there anyway i can pay the fine without a criminal record, that is my main concern. Also if i plead guilty as it is my first offence is there anyway they will allow me to just pay the fine and not get a criminal record?

It doesn't work like that. If you are convicted of a crime, you get a criminal record.

So your best hope is to negotiate a settlement.

But if you are convicted, you need to be aware that while that's not good news, it's not the end of the world.

For a start, look at what you are being charged with. What we almost always see here are charges under the railway byelaws or under the Regulation of Railways Act (RORA). If you are convicted under the byelaws, then there is an argument that your conviction will not be reported to the Disclosure and Barring Service (DBS), and will also immediately become 'spent' under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act (someone who knows chapter and verse of the law will probably be along shortly to confirm this point or correct me). If the DBS don't know about a conviction, then if you apply for a job or to do voluntary work that needs a DBS check, then they won't be able to mention it. And if a conviction is spent, then for most purposes you are not required to mention it.

But what if you are convicted under RORA (and this would also be the case if I've got it wrong about byelaw convictions)? Then the DBS will be told about your conviction - and for a period you would have to disclose it if anyone (such as an employer) asked about it. As I would expect the punishment for fare-dodging to be a fine, the period you need to disclose a conviction for is one year. And you also need to know that there are some circumstances (mainly involving being in a position of trust - so that's things involving other people's money or personal care or things like that) when a conviction never becomes spent.

So that probably sounds fairly dreadful - surely no-one will employ someone who has disclosed a conviction? Actually, that's less of a problem than you might think. There are certainly jobs in finance and the law (so broadly in the City of London) where any conviction is a bar to employment - but for lots of other jobs employers will be quite understanding about one conviction: quite simply, it proves that you have made a mistake, and every human makes mistakes from time to time. If it's only one mistake, and not a record of several offences or misjudgements, then employers may well give you the benefit of the doubt and hope that you've learnt from it. But there's an important warning to go with this: if you try to hide your conviction, then employers will see that as a second mistake - possibly even more serious than the fare-dodging in the first place in that it means that you're prepared to lie to keep your job. Employers don't like proven liars. So if you are convicted, it's best to be honest. If you really think that being honest will cause you a problem at work, then try to find someone who knows your business well first to ask them for advice. If you're in a trade union, then your union rep/shop steward is a good first person to ask. And although I've written this assuming that you are worried about work, much the same applies if you're a volunteer with your manager.

Getting a conviction isn't nice: it's not meant to be because one of the points of the criminal law is to deter people from committing crimes. But neither does it mean your life is over. Accept responsibility for what (according to your first post) you have done and this will be a lesson to learn that will then pass.

 

[WesternLancer]

q1) I was not asked for an address i pressume she just used the address that was on my id. I basically wrote what i haven written in here but explained that i know it is wrong and won’t do it again while offering to pay for the fare and any other costs


q2) I have not come across the phone number for the prosecutions department only PO BOX


q3) Is there anyway i can pay the fine without a criminal record, that is my main concern. Also if i plead guilty as it is my first offence is there anyway they will allow me to just pay the fine and not get a criminal record?

Q1- "I was not asked for an address i pressume she just used the address that was on my id. I basically wrote what i haven written in here but explained that i know it is wrong and won’t do it again while offering to pay for the fare and any other costs

I immediately wrote and out of cout settlement letter offering to pay the full fare plus any fees and sent it off by next day tracking it was received however i have not heard anything back"

Sorry - this is a bit confusing - if you wrote to them presumably that point you used an address they could reply to you at? If they replied to the address on your ID (the London address you were not regularly at) - that is perhaps why you have not received a reply. You really need to engage with them in a way that is helping them to some extent, if you want them to be lenient on you. But I guess you received the court case summons so they must now have a correct address or one you can check the post sent to somehow.

q2) "I have not come across the phone number for the prosecutions department only PO BOX"

I guess you could try ringing SE Trains customer services to see if they would give you a contact number. It's a long shot but worth a call - also read this if you have not done so yet

Revenue Protection Policy | Southeastern

We aim to clarify passenger responsibilities when travelling with us

www.southeasternrailway.co.uk

q3) Is there anyway i can pay the fine without a criminal record, that is my main concern. Also if i plead guilty as it is my first offence is there anyway they will allow me to just pay the fine and not get a criminal record?

Others will correct me, but I think if it goes before the court the answer to both of these questions is, I strongly suspect, no. But if you speak to the Prosecutor at the court, as suggested above, and if they agree to settle with you then I think there would be no criminal record as the case would be withdrawn on the day. If you can not reach an agreement with them before the court date this is your only hope of avoiding a criminal record I suspect and I think this would be a good idea.


Good luck with it.

 

[londonteacher]

this is my first time ever getting caught

Does that mean you have committed the offence on more than one occasion previously?

 

[Nmulah1]

Does that mean you have committed the offence on more than one occasion previously?

Unfortunately yes, although I know it’s wrong money has been abit tight

 

[6Gman]

I know that apparently i may be to come to an agreement with the prosecutor before the case but i still do not know whether i should plead guilty or not.

On what basis would you support a plea of Not Guilty?

 

[skyhigh]

I was not asked for an address i pressume she just used the address that was on my id. I basically wrote what i haven written in here but explained that i know it is wrong and won’t do it again while offering to pay for the fare and any other costs

In your original post you say you expected they would send you a letter in the post, so surely you knew they took an address? If the address was off your driving licence, and isn't somewhere you live or can receive post you really need to update that too. In your letter did you tell them your new address?

Did they send any previous letters before the one with the court date? Does that letter tell you what offence you're being prosecuted under?

When you said you knew what you did was wrong, did you tell them the truth about what you'd done, or try and further the lie that you'd bought the second ticket knowing the train wouldn't be stopping at Stratford? Because it's not hard to tell when the ticket was bought and printed, so if you'd bought it before the Stratford stop was cancelled they'll know... and if you're not being open with them they'll be less likely to accept a settlement offer.

If you want to phone them, I'd suggest calling Southeastern customer services during office hours and ask to be put through to the prosecutions department.

 

[30907]

I know that apparently i may be to come to an agreement with the prosecutor before the case but i still do not know whether i should plead guilty or not.

From your account you have little choice in the matter, however, if you are unable to reach a settlement:
1. IIRC any fine will be reduced if you plead guilty
2. An offence under the railway byelaws is "non-recordable" so should not appear on police records if you need a DBS check.

 

[londonteacher]

Unfortunately yes, although I know it’s wrong money has been abit tight

If you don't mind me asking what was the reason for travel?

If HS1 was too expensive surely you could have travelled to another SE station?

 

[WesternLancer]

In your original post you say you expected they would send you a letter in the post, so surely you knew they took an address? If the address was off your driving licence, and isn't somewhere you live or can receive post you really need to update that too. In your letter did you tell them your new address?

Did they send any previous letters before the one with the court date? Does that letter tell you what offence you're being prosecuted under?

When you said you knew what you did was wrong, did you tell them the truth about what you'd done, or try and further the lie that you'd bought the second ticket knowing the train wouldn't be stopping at Stratford? Because it's not hard to tell when the ticket was bought and printed, so if you'd bought it before the Stratford stop was cancelled they'll know... and if you're not being open with them they'll be less likely to accept a settlement offer.

If you want to phone them, I'd suggest calling Southeastern customer services during office hours and ask to be put through to the prosecutions department.

I read it that the OP had an address in London that they could use, but were not there much if at all after being caught, and an address in Kent, where they were, but was not on the ID they used. EG like a student with a term time address but maybe not used much due to covid meaning no point being near their college (for example). Still, not helped themselves by not giving clear contact detials to the revenue protection officer.

 

[Jamiescott1]

Unfortunately yes, although I know it’s wrong money has been abit tight

Let's hope revenue protection aren't reading this.

 

[island]

I read it that the OP had an address in London that they could use, but were not there much if at all after being caught, and an address in Kent, where they were, but was not on the ID they used. EG like a student with a term time address but maybe not used much due to covid meaning no point being near their college (for example). Still, not helped themselves by not giving clear contact detials to the revenue protection officer.

Additionally, it is an offence to have a wrong address on your driving licence (technically: not to notify a change of address to the DVLA).

 

[WesternLancer]

Additionally, it is an offence to have a wrong address on your driving licence (technically: not to notify a change of address to the DVLA).

Indeed. Tho I assume there are many people who have 2 addresses and there is presumably some process by which they are allowed to choose which place to have it listed.

In this case I don't think the OP ever stated they used a driving licence as their ID, that was speculated on / used as a potential example cited by another responder in the thread. The OP simply mentioned "she just used the address that was on my id" - so it could have been anything shown by the OP to the member of railway staff.

 

[Nipa]

Has there been any update on this? Did you have to go to court?

 

[skyhigh]

Has there been any update on this? Did you have to go to court?

If you're in a similar position, starting your own thread in this section is probably the best way to get advice