Covid restrictions abroad: updates & observations

[Dent]

This is why I think hospitalisations are a better measure. Cases by themselves don't tell us very much, especially as we saw with Omicron. If we know that our hospitals are being swamped and unable to cope, restrictions are a good idea to avoid hospitals collapsing.

But in a situation where you have many cases and very few hospitalisations? Restrictions are completely pointless.

The point still stands that any restrictions disrupt the endemic equilibrium and cause an increase in cases and hospitalisations when the restrictions end, which if you impose restrictions every time hospitalisations increase just leads to an infinite loop. Basically you have set the criteria to move round another iteration of the loop, but no criteria to finally get out of that loop.

 

[Cloud Strife]

The point still stands that any restrictions disrupt the endemic equilibrium and cause an increase in cases and hospitalisations when the restrictions end, which if you impose restrictions every time hospitalisations increase just leads to an infinite loop. Basically you have set the criteria to move round another iteration of the loop, but no criteria to finally get out of that loop.

But what's the alternative? If we have the situation that hospitals can't cope, the only option is to watch the bodies pile up. We need to maintain hospital services, we can't simply let Covid run riot and then watch as no-one can get treated for anything else.

Restrictions are there to stop hospitals collapsing and to make sure that we can continue to offer health care, nothing more. If it wasn't for the restrictions in PL, the healthcare system would have collapsed even more than it did.

 

[Dent]

But what's the alternative? If we have the situation that hospitals can't cope, the only option is to watch the bodies pile up. We need to maintain hospital services, we can't simply let Covid run riot and then watch as no-one can get treated for anything else.

Restrictions are there to stop hospitals collapsing and to make sure that we can continue to offer health care, nothing more. If it wasn't for the restrictions in PL, the healthcare system would have collapsed even more than it did.

You still haven't answered the question of what the criteria should be to exit the infinite loop that your proposal to impose restrictions every time hospitalisaations increase creates. We now have vaccinations, we have improved treatments, we have a mild dominant variant, what else should we be waiting for?

 

[Bantamzen]

The problem is that it's very tricky to say exactly why someone is hospitalised. Take AIDS, someone can be hospitalised with the disease, yet the actual hospitalisation is because of something like pneumonia.

Well then admission 'with covid' isn't going to be a useful parameter to use then is it?

But what's the alternative? If we have the situation that hospitals can't cope, the only option is to watch the bodies pile up. We need to maintain hospital services, we can't simply let Covid run riot and then watch as no-one can get treated for anything else.

Restrictions are there to stop hospitals collapsing and to make sure that we can continue to offer health care, nothing more. If it wasn't for the restrictions in PL, the healthcare system would have collapsed even more than it did.

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but the NHS has lurched from one crisis to another for decades. Every single year I can remember, there has been a crisis, all covid has done is expose the NHS's major weakness, underfunding & frankly dire management. This is the problem at the very centre, not covid. We need to develop a healthcare system that doesn't always run at close to capacity, but has plenty for any future health crisis. And it's staff need to be paid enough to not only encourage them to stay in the profession, but encourage new people into the profession. NHS management have hidden behind covid for too long, its time to tackle the real problem at heart.

 

[Eyersey468]

But what's the alternative? If we have the situation that hospitals can't cope, the only option is to watch the bodies pile up. We need to maintain hospital services, we can't simply let Covid run riot and then watch as no-one can get treated for anything else.

Restrictions are there to stop hospitals collapsing and to make sure that we can continue to offer health care, nothing more. If it wasn't for the restrictions in PL, the healthcare system would have collapsed even more than it did.

The NHS can't cope every winter are you suggesting we should have restrictions every winter?

 

[D6130]

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but the NHS has lurched from one crisis to another for decades. Every single year I can remember, there has been a crisis, all covid has done is expose the NHS's major weakness, underfunding & frankly dire management. This is the problem at the very centre, not covid. We need to develop a healthcare system that doesn't always run at close to capacity, but has plenty for any future health crisis. And it's staff need to be paid enough to not only encourage them to stay in the profession, but encourage new people into the profession. NHS management have hidden behind covid for too long, its time to tackle the real problem at heart.

Absolutely spot-on! My brother, sister-in-law and several friends are health care professionals and would agree with everything you have written.

 

[kristiang85]

The NHS can't cope every winter are you suggesting we should have restrictions every winter?

Indeed... we can't get into this loop of 'NHS under pressure = restrictions must be imposed'.

As shown in my post here, what happened in 2020/2021 really wasn't that extraordinary in terms of pressure on the hospitals. https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/heading-into-autumn-what-next.221694/page-14#post-5313502

The problem is clearly the substandard health service that isn't fit for purpose, and not the general population, who were the ones effectively punished for nearly two years because of it.

 

[Cdd89]

The CDC (in the US) has recently updated its guidance to encourage everyone to test before travelling domestically.

Traveling this summer? CDC recommends everyone test for COVID-19 in days before flying

Before anyone travels internationally or within the U.S. this summer, the CDC recommends a test for COVID-19 in the days before flying.

www.seattletimes.com

If you are traveling internationally or within the U.S. this summer, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recommends you test for COVID-19 in the days before flying.
The agency’s recommendation for all travelers regardless of vaccination status came in an update to its COVID-19 testing website on May 16.
“Consider getting tested as close to the time of departure as possible (no more than 3 days) before your trip” when heading to any destination, the CDC said.

I suppose this makes more sense than the previous position of requiring it only for international travellers, but it’s still going in the wrong direction in terms of getting people to live with Covid.

 

[nw1]

The CDC (in the US) has recently updated its guidance to encourage everyone to test before travelling domestically.

Traveling this summer? CDC recommends everyone test for COVID-19 in days before flying

Before anyone travels internationally or within the U.S. this summer, the CDC recommends a test for COVID-19 in the days before flying.

www.seattletimes.com

I suppose this makes more sense than the previous position of requiring it only for international travellers, but it’s still going in the wrong direction in terms of getting people to live with Covid.

Definitely going backwards.

So a test-free holiday to the US is presumably out of the question this year. Given that few people will want to risk a cancelled holiday due to a positive test, only people desperate to visit the US will go this year when there are so many test-free destinations to choose from.

Seems odd for the US. Have they got a hospitalisation rate they can't cope with at the moment?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It seems it's crazy they are enforcing masks on Trains but not Planes I was in Nuremberg a few weeks ago and virtually no one at the airport including staff were wearing one.
No mask required on BA Flights to and from Germany either.

FFP2 masks still required on flights (and all public transport) in/to/from Germany (with state-level variations).
I think the current mandate runs out on May 31 unless renewed.

 

[Hans]

As a new member to these forums, can I say how refreshing it is to read so many questioning the whole covid restrictions narrative.

Some posters are saying we have to protect the NHS and we cannot just let bodies pile up. The number of deaths of covid not with covid is actually less than some years winter flu/respiratory deaths previously seen. At no point did anyone demand lockdowns, mask wearing, furlough payments, social distancing, mandatory vaccination with an emergency use only mRNA technology and goodness know what else.

I am very happy for anyone to do their own risk assessment and for them to take their own precautions as long as they respect mine and others choices not to take precautions. Sadly for many it is a one way street, it is time all this nonsense is put to bed once and for all, travel should be something one can do on a whim, it should not be dependant upon a vaccination, testing, recovery certifications or subject to wearing a mask.

 

[bramling]

We really need to get rid of every trace of these restrictions from our minds eye; the stickers and announcements as well as the lingering rules.

The problem is no government or organisation are going to push for it as it shows that there may be a possibility that they shouldn't have done it or at least for as long as they did.

The hangover is that there were so many statements, proclamations and edicts out there under such fanfares that were not reversed with the same level of vigour. Therefore there is still great deal of misunderstandings out there and no-one is going to reverse the mind set for them. Therefore we have to remove every image that may re-enforce these poor sods who have been led down the garden path and don't have the capacity to change.

I watched a single person sat in a sports hall awards ceremony with several hundred people with his little blue mask on, taking it off for beer. How on earth did we get to the point where this person thinks this is anything bud stone cold insane?

Yes we have someone at work who “wants to punch anyone I see not wearing a mask”, even now. The individual concerned wears two of the blue disposable masks one on top of the other.

What an unfortunate state of affairs.

Reality is that we're at the point now where we can make our own decisions and choices. The idea of someone going around rabidly trying to remove any and all information about masks, social distancing, etc is just... amusing.

I still wear a mask in some specific places, due to the inability of people to keep even a minimal amount of distance. I don't need you to tell me what I should and shouldn't do, and I'm quite happy to comply with the law/regulations on wearing one.

Do you not think there’s some psychological benefit in no longer having all these constant reminders plastered everywhere?

 

[MikeWM]

So a test-free holiday to the US is presumably out of the question this year. Given that few people will want to risk a cancelled holiday due to a positive test, only people desperate to visit the US will go this year when there are so many test-free destinations to choose from.

And of course many of us are still barred from entering the US entirely, whether tested or not. There don't appear to be any moves to change that either; at this rate we may have to wait until after the mid-terms in November.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The mask mandate on public transport in Belgium is going on Monday.

 

[LAX54]

And of course many of us are still barred from entering the US entirely, whether tested or not. There don't appear to be any moves to change that either; at this rate we may have to wait until after the mid-terms in November.

The USA media have just started a new 'panic / concern' been on all the news channels about Monkeypox, and that it 'was spreading rapidly' then went on to say that there were 2 cases in the whole of the USA ! lol

As for Covid, having just come back from the States, it does not seem like it will be altering anytime soon, N.E USA are starting to try and bring back mask mandates in schools.

 

[Howardh]

I'm now reading that the Spanish intend to stop pax needing the covid vax certificate "shortly" and will allow all those who haven't had the vax to enter with a PCR test. That's if I've read it correctly. But how would they discriminate all those who have had the full vax from those that require a PCR test?

So is everyone gonna have to take a test, or does it really mean that yo can still show your vax status but those without can now enter with a negative test??

Mallorca travel restrictions for Britons to be eased

Spain will stop requiring the Covid certificate for tourists from outside the EU. "Spain is a safe destination, 92% of the population has been vaccinated".

www.majorcadailybulletin.com

Spain will stop requiring a Covid-19 vaccination certificate from tourists from outside the European Union, such as the United Kingdom, "in a matter of days" and they will be able to enter the country with a negative test, the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism, Reyes Maroto, announced on Thursday.


"It will be a matter of days before we eliminate a restriction that could be discouraging tourists from outside the European Union from visiting us and we are going to stop requiring a vaccination certificate to allow them to enter with a negative test," she said in an interview on Onda Cero radio.
Maroto stressed that this is "good news" and insisted that it will come into force "in a matter of days", once the government has finalised the order that will include the elimination of the vaccination certificate for non-EU tourists in order to approve it.
"It will be very welcome, by simply presenting a negative test tourists from third countries will be able to enter," said the Minister of Industry, Tourism and Trade, who reiterated that this is the "good news" that the tourism sector has been waiting for and which will make Spain one of the top destinations for international tourists this year.

 

[nw1]

I'm now reading that the Spanish intend to stop pax needing the covid vax certificate "shortly" and will allow all those who haven't had the vax to enter with a PCR test. That's if I've read it correctly. But how would they discriminate all those who have had the full vax from those that require a PCR test?

I would still like a satisfactory explanation as to why many countries are discriminating between EU and non-EU arrivals. I would like to see the health or science minister of countries with this policy explain this discrimination in strict scientific terms, and why non-EU arrivals are considered more dangerous in terms of Covid spread. If they cannot do that, then they need to treat EU and non-EU arrivals equally.

Countries should either apply the vaccine certificate or test requirements to ALL arrivals, EU or non-EU, or none at all. Or, if they wish to discriminate based on country of origin, do it strictly on scientific grounds (Covid infection or hospitalisation rate, for instance).

 

[Cdd89]

I would still like a satisfactory explanation as to why many countries are discriminating between EU and non-EU arrivals.

One argument is that if unvaccinated people are permitted entry, this represents a higher risk of that visitor requiring healthcare resources. In this respect it can be argued to make sense to differentiate between those visitors that countries ‘have’ to allow entry (and who are already factored in to healthcare pressure), and those they don’t.

It’s not a million miles away from how many countries do not allow admission to those with mental health or certain other conditions, where they don’t have to. This is even worse than the Covid situation since there’s often nothing such people can do to meet admission requirements. Refusing admission to those with criminal records is another example of countries saying “no thanks” to anyone higher risk.

I fully disagree with all the above, by the way — but this is how I’ve heard it explained.

 

[Bantamzen]

One argument is that if unvaccinated people are permitted entry, this represents a higher risk of that visitor requiring healthcare resources. In this respect it can be argued to make sense to differentiate between those visitors that countries ‘have’ to allow entry (and who are already factored in to healthcare pressure), and those they don’t.

It’s not a million miles away from how many countries do not allow admission to those with mental health or certain other conditions, where they don’t have to. This is even worse than the Covid situation since there’s often nothing such people can do to meet admission requirements. Refusing admission to those with criminal records is another example of countries saying “no thanks” to anyone higher risk.

I fully disagree with all the above, by the way — but this is how I’ve heard it explained.

There is one problem with this theory, unvaccinated does not mean more risk. It is estimated that at least 96% of the UK population have been exposed to either the virus or the vaccine, meaning that most people's immune systems are able to react to the virus. This whole unvaccinated = more risk myth needs to be killed off once and for all.

 

[Howardh]

There is one problem with this theory, unvaccinated does not mean more risk. It is estimated that at least 96% of the UK population have been exposed to either the virus or the vaccine, meaning that most people's immune systems are able to react to the virus. This whole unvaccinated = more risk myth needs to be killed off once and for all.

Having the vaccination means you have a lower chance of being seriously ill - but I've no idea if you can pass on the virus to someone else as having the vax doesn't prevent infection;

Having the vaccine doesn't lower the risk of passing it on?? Or does it??

If the former the benefits of the vaccine are purely to the taker?

Meaning - for travel, you could be fully vaccinated as you travel around, but that won't stop you passing it on to another because the vax doesn't stop infection? HOWEVER IF having the vaccine is more likely to prevent you passing it on, then it makes sense to allow those through but restrict those without the vax.

But I thought the main reason that tourists could travel vaxxed is that they are far less likely to need medical treatment in the country they visit so not putting a strain on their health services? Therefore someone NOT vaxxed may well enter covid-free BUT risks catching covid AND needing hospital treatment? So better to keep them out unless for valid reasons?

 

[Hans]

Having the vaccination means you have a lower chance of being seriously ill

Does it? There are more people ill with covid since the vaccinations have been given than there were prior to vaccinations starting. Many people who have not been vaccinated have either never had covid or have had nothing more than a few days of cold symptoms.

To travel in Europe you can have had many vaccinations and still get covid, have not had any vaccinations and still get covid or produce a recovery certificate for between 3 and 6 months ago and still get covid. Why is there discrimination between people? It is very wrong. A negative PCR or antigen test just shows at that particular moment in time there was no residual coronavirus picked up - those people can still get covid. Where does it all end?

Pre March 2020 passengers on any form of public transport were not tested, or have to prove vaccination status, or produce recovery certificates for infectious diseases which can cause far worse symptoms and be more infectious than covid, so why should it be any different now?

The situation currently where a train travelling from Denmark to Germany, or previously from England to Scotland or Wales, requires mask wearing once a border is crossed, or vaccination status could be asked for at any point on time once a countries border has been crossed just shows how much this is all theatre. Does a virus really only strike when it gets to Gretna but does not when at Carlisle?

 

[Bantamzen]

Having the vaccination means you have a lower chance of being seriously ill - but I've no idea if you can pass on the virus to someone else as having the vax doesn't prevent infection;

Having the vaccine doesn't lower the risk of passing it on?? Or does it??

If the former the benefits of the vaccine are purely to the taker?

Meaning - for travel, you could be fully vaccinated as you travel around, but that won't stop you passing it on to another because the vax doesn't stop infection? HOWEVER IF having the vaccine is more likely to prevent you passing it on, then it makes sense to allow those through but restrict those without the vax.

But I thought the main reason that tourists could travel vaxxed is that they are far less likely to need medical treatment in the country they visit so not putting a strain on their health services? Therefore someone NOT vaxxed may well enter covid-free BUT risks catching covid AND needing hospital treatment? So better to keep them out unless for valid reasons?

The vaccines were developed to help people's immune system get a head start on the virus. In all honesty I'm not sure if there is any further benefit from it, i.e. additional protection from the virus if someone has been infected prior to the first jab. There might be some if the vaccine carries proteins significantly different from anything seen in the strain that caused the original infection, but as with many viruses a significant proportion of the proteins will be similar meaning that an immune system already exposed to it may well be able to react to similar strains. Let's not forget that when research began on the vaccines the target groups were the elderly and vulnerable, it was never envisaged that the vaccines would see such wide distribution. That decision came much later.

Now with such wide distribution of both vaccine and virus, it is highly likely that there are very few people at least here whose immune systems are unexposed to at least some of the proteins of the virus, meaning that they can react much more effectively than they would in early 2020 when the virus started to spread. Which is why targeting unvaccinated people illogical in my mind, the vaccines are there to mimic the effect of infection to trigger a reaction from the immune system. So if it is this reaction that is desired, then that reaction will also be expected from exposure to the virus.

 

[nw1]

One argument is that if unvaccinated people are permitted entry, this represents a higher risk of that visitor requiring healthcare resources. In this respect it can be argued to make sense to differentiate between those visitors that countries ‘have’ to allow entry (and who are already factored in to healthcare pressure), and those they don’t.

It’s not a million miles away from how many countries do not allow admission to those with mental health or certain other conditions, where they don’t have to. This is even worse than the Covid situation since there’s often nothing such people can do to meet admission requirements. Refusing admission to those with criminal records is another example of countries saying “no thanks” to anyone higher risk.

I fully disagree with all the above, by the way — but this is how I’ve heard it explained.

First of all, my main issue isn't to do with vaccination status (I note some other posts discuss this), it's to do with discrimination based on country of origin. I want to make that clear.

Anyway... it's still rather a weak explanation (though I note you don't agree with the explanation you've given). The fact is that by allowing EU arrivals, they are allowing free entry to 26 other countries; countries which will probably make up the bulk of foreign visitors due to geographical proximity.

Thus, the increase in risk factor of allowing in people from EU countries is going to presumably be significantly greater than any additional risk factor in allowing in people from non-EU countries as well.

EU countries with this policy used health concerns to place restrictions on other EU countries before; if the health concerns were sufficiently worrying this would override the principle of free movement between EU countries and the restrictions would apply to EU countries too, except perhaps bordering countries (France, Portugal) where a lot of cross-border travel may occur as a matter of routine.

 

[Howardh]

There are more people ill with covid since the vaccinations have been given than there were prior to vaccinations starting.

Probably because Omicron was far more transmissable than the original variants, and therefore made many more ill (far more cases - 200k/day wasn't it at one point??) - but not as ill as those previous ones. Hospitalisations rose, but kept within crisis levels, and deaths far fewer/case than delta and before. The "lid was kept on it" if I memember the figures at the time.

First UK cases of Omicron variant identified

Two cases of COVID-19 with mutations consistent with B.1.1.529 identified in the UK.

www.gov.uk

Department of Health and Social CarePublished27 November 2021

• Individuals and their households are self-isolating and contact tracing is ongoing
• From 4am Sunday 28 November Malawi, Mozambique, Zambia, and Angola will be added to the UK’s travel red list

After overnight genome sequencing, the UK Health Security Agency (UKHSA) has confirmed that 2 cases of COVID-19 with mutations consistent with B.1.1.529 have been identified in the UK.

Edit 276k known cases on Jan 5th 2022 (so soon ago, can't believe it!!) and the highest daily death rate average went up to 290 mid-February. This week the daily average (deaths) is a snitch over half that. Without the vaccine...who knows??

But the vaccine has allowed us to travel, and I'm grateful for that if nothing else. Would we all be having PCR tests every time we wanted to travel to Europe if the vaccine wasn't available or didn't work? Or would the governments overseas look at the amount of revenue they are losing and put tourism first, and have scrapped the need for tests much sooner so we'd be travelling with no vaccine or test?

 

[Simon11]

I am currently in Portugal, where they still have the daft rule that face masks must be worn on public transport. Absolutely fine however to wonder around museums, shops and indoor spaces without one. Why on earth bother! Most people here seem to comply for some reason…

What was rather funny, that even on the old trams in Lisbon with no glass windows, you still had to wear a mask and they had a lovely covid safe sticker…. O dear! Bring out a sandwich and you are covid safe to take your mask off to enjoy a slow meal…

Also, at Faro airport there were hundreds and hundreds of people from a wide range of countries like us waiting for an hour for immigration in a hall without suitable air con. Prime time for covid to spread…. Common sense is needed as to their covid priorities!

 

[Howardh]

Also, at Faro airport there were hundreds and hundreds of people from a wide range of countries like us waiting for an hour for immigration in a hall without suitable air con. Prime time for covid to spread…. Common sense is needed as to their covid priorities!

Which lane were you in? Recently the Portugeuse authorities allowed UK's to use the EU's queue for the e-gates, presumably the date of arrival (and subsequent date leaving) was recorded electronically to maintain the 90/180 rule. To be honest, having used e-gates before, I'm not sure it's any faster than the passport being checked and stamped by an official.

Before Brexit we used to use the EU gates which was basically just the UK and Irish flights. Nowadays we are lumped in with everyone else. G-r-e-a-t. But you're right, seems daft havign all those mask rules yet the place where it would spread the easiest isn't covered (pun intended). Were any of the other pax from other flights wearing them?

 

[AlterEgo]

Which lane were you in? Recently the Portugeuse authorities allowed UK's to use the EU's queue for the e-gates, presumably the date of arrival (and subsequent date leaving) was recorded electronically to maintain the 90/180 rule. To be honest, having used e-gates before, I'm not sure it's any faster than the passport being checked and stamped by an official.

In Lisbon you use the e-gate and approach an officer stationed just behind them who "blindly" just stamps the passport. It is much faster.

 

[yorkie]

Does it?

Definitely; compare the outcomes in places like Hong Kong vs Australia for example!

The vaccines are absolutely brilliant at doing what they are designed to do; the problem is some people missold them and mislead people and coined ludicrously misleading terms such as "breakthrough" infections which demonstrate a lack of understanding regarding what the purpose of vaccination is.

 

[Planesandtrain]

Austria is dropping face masks in all areas apart from medical healthcare settings from 1st of June, initially for three months. However, the city of Vienna is keeping masks on public transport in addition (how this will be enforced goodness knows).

Try catching the Railjet 256 from Graz to Berlin, no masks from Graz to Wien Meidling, FFP2 Masks from Wien Meidling to Hbf, from Hbf no masks again, until you reach Bad Schandau where you have to mask up again (albeit with a medical mask until you reach the border of Brandenburg where you are required to wear an FFP2 mask.) Complete madness!

 

[nlogax]

As for Covid, having just come back from the States, it does not seem like it will be altering anytime soon, N.E USA are starting to try and bring back mask mandates in schools.

Been here in California for a week and haven't had to wear a mask or show my vax docs to anyone. The preflight Verifly list was the last time I needed to access any of it, along with the antigen test of course. Once that's finally done away with then great.