Covid restrictions to end on 19th July

[Nicholas Lewis]

All the evidence is that the effect of normal masks on aerosol transmission are absolutely minimal. In terms of what we now know about transmission and the infectiousness of the Delta variant, continuing to pretend that normal masks are any form of mitigation is outright dangerous.

I absolutely agree that isolation has the potential to cause chaos over the next month, but the only workable response to that is strongly reduce the need the isolate from the 19th so that it's in line with the changes in restrictions

The point here is if the govt want to give us our freedom back (fantastic all for that) but are going to leave test, trace and isolate in place without changing its modus operandi so inevitably we will see a considerably increase in people being told to self isolate until 16th August. So if they aren't going to budge on this then they need to continue to control virus spread so keeping masks, but no other restrictions, is a pretty simple solution that doesn't impede us getting out and about doing what we want. There is a possibility that our freedom isn't worth much when things we want to access have to shut because all staff are self isolating.

So I am advocating surgical masks as means of moderating the hazard at source not as a means to protect yourself from airborne aerosols as they won't only reasonable option for joe public is FFP3 masks which we are all in agreement.

Perhaps you can link to any studies that show surgical masks provide minimal trapping of aerosols breathed out of your mouth/nose as my own use of them shows them becoming damp from my exhalations when ive had them on for long train journeys.

 

[yorkie]

Perhaps you can link to any studies that show surgical masks provide minimal trapping of aerosols breathed out of your mouth/nose as my own use of them shows them becoming damp from my exhalations when ive had them on for long train journeys.

Just look at the article I linked to; there was a 47 fold difference between flimsy standard masks vs FFP3 masks.

Standard masks are not designed to prevent virus particles passing through; the particles are too small for that.

Yes people who support masks will use all sorts of complicated arguments about trapping some of the aerosols on the basis that this ''must'' make a difference, but there are no real world studies which demonstrate flimsy standard masks are effective.

The only real world studies we have highlight the ineffectiveness of such masks.

But why do we need them? Everyone who is vulnerable has had the chance to receive two shots of the vaccine and take up has been very high. Even people who are immunocompromised are offered a high level of protection by vaccination.

The point here is if the govt want to give us our freedom back (fantastic all for that) but are going to leave test, trace and isolate in place...

I don't agree with this premise either.

 

[43066]

The point here is if the govt want to give us our freedom back (fantastic all for that) but are going to leave test, trace and isolate in place without changing its modus operandi so inevitably we will see a considerably increase in people being told to self isolate until 16th August. So if they aren't going to budge on this then they need to continue to control virus spread so keeping masks, but no other restrictions, is a pretty simple solution that doesn't impede us getting out and about doing what we want. There is a possibility that our freedom isn't worth much when things we want to access have to shut because all staff are self isolating.

I sort of see the point you’re making here, but on the basis face coverings in non clinical settings don’t really make little to no difference, wouldn’t it be better to advocate for abandoning test and trace and changing isolation requirements to only those who symptomatic/have positive test results?

Test and trace is something else that has never really worked because the virus exists in too high numbers and spreads far too easily for it ever to make any meaningful difference.

 

[takno]

Perhaps you can link to any studies that show surgical masks provide minimal trapping of aerosols breathed out of your mouth/nose as my own use of them shows them becoming damp from my exhalations when ive had them on for long train journeys.

I'm not in the mood to go hunting, and note that you haven't provided any evidence yourself. Suffice to say that all the studies I've seen claiming any benefit from masks were studying droplets rather than aerosols.

The dampness in the masks is caused by droplets, the vast majority of which fall quickly and harmlessly to the ground without infecting anybody. The aerosols pass straight through largely unimpeded by surgical masks and almost entirely unimpeded by cloth masks. Poorly-fitted masks make it possible even for the aerosols that are stopped by the material to exit around the edges.

They don't work for anything other than giving people the opportunity to feel like they're doing something. Using them as a real world mitigation measure for an an actual practical problem is like using rice pudding when laying bricks because you can't find any mortar.

 

[dave87016]

Well if reports are true that tommorow Boris is going to say that masks should continue to be worn I expect him to backtrack on more things and urge more caution

I want to be able to order a pint at the bar and stand and chat at the bar without wearing a mask ( being profoundly deaf I rely heavily on lip reading ) I fear Boris’s “freedom day” conference tommorow will be anything but freedom

How can he backtrack on ditching the masks when he correctly said if we don’t learn to live with Covid now when do we , winter is when it’s at its most dangerous and delaying till 2022 would be the final straw for many businesses as very few will survive that long and would mean having to extend again the furlough scheme and financial help to businesses

Again it’s going to be confusing messages and Boris trying to please both sides i think he made a big mistake announcing it last week as it’s given the scientists and those who want us to continue wearing masks and keep restrictions enough time to build momentum and put pressure on Boris and his cronies to reverse his decision which in my mind I think he will do

 

[alex397]

Just so long as you accept others will choose not to wear one, whether you like it or not.

People have always chosen not to wear one even when not exempt. I won’t say my opinion on that. And yes, I do accept others will choose not to wear one from July 19th, as they have no legal obligation to do so. Whether I agree with it is another matter.

No it doesn't. If this was true, South Korea wouldn't be seeing an increase in cases and Sweden would be doing far worse.

Also if it was true that standard flimsy masks worked, how do you explain the results of study*, which i linked to further up the thread?

It would be difficult to prove both ways what impact mask wearing has had on the increasing South Korea cases or on Sweden’s cases. I’d be interested to know if masks have stopped South Korea’s or Sweden’s cases going even higher.

I accept that masks arnt completely effective, but there is still division amongst the scientific community about how effective they are. So, until it becomes more established what the effect is, I will wait until deciding for myself.

That is entirely your choice; I am not aware of anyone on this forum wanting to mandate that you don't wear a mask, which is what you appear to be insinuating. The authoritarianism is on the part of the pro-mask brigade.

Well, it is insinuated that people wearing masks are just ignorant sheep. There have also been a minority of people confronting people wearing masks in the UK, such as in Maidstone recently

https://www.kentonline.co.uk/maidst...s-berating-passers-by-for-wearing-mas-250054/

Worrying footage shows anti-vaxxers making wild claims about Covid jabs and haranguing passers-by for wearing masks.

The lockdown sceptics, who marched in Maidstone yesterday, can be seen confronting people sat at bus stops and arguing with people in the street.

Watch 'highlights' of the Covid protest in Maidstone on Saturday, compiled by Louis Hayward

One young woman on the receiving end of the protesters' persistent comments walks away in anger - to which an activist remarks: "Cry-baby".

The groups had gathered in The Mall shopping centre and took to Week Streetwith signs and loud speakers, with the video appearing to show prominent anti-vaxxer Piers Corbyn speaking to the crowd.


The footage taken during the day shows activists chanting "take down the BBC" through a loudspeaker.

An air raid siren blares as they march through the shopping centre before a woman railing against masks says: "We weren't born with a nappy on our face."

A protester berates people sat at a bus stop. Picture: Louis Hayward
A man in a cap is then seen shouting at people sat a bus stop, before animatedly telling passers-by they won't be able to get on a plane again if they've had a Covid jab.

Fact-checkers say no evidence has been found that vaccines increase the risk of deep vein thrombosis (DVT), when a blood clot forms in a vein, while flying.

One woman even claims "there's a good chance your not even going to be here - if you have it - in a couple of years".


Claims shared on social media that Covid vaccines could halve the population in five years by killing most people who receive them are not based in any scientific fact.

The footage has been edited down into highlights by cameraman Louis Hayward, who forwarded it on to KentOnline.

A heated exchange during the protests on Saturday. Picture: Louis Hayward
The protest was organised to highlight opposition to giving the Covid vaccine to children .

On Friday, research from the Office for National Statistics was published which showed 88% of parents of under-18s said they would either definitely or probably allow their children to have the vaccine.

There is already tension now. If it is no longer mandated, there should be no more tension, unless of course pro-mask lobbyists try to criticise people for adhering to the law.

I agree there is tension now. However, different parts of the government saying different things is not going to help matters. Either say continue wearing masks, or say you don’t need to wear them. It shouldn’t be in between.

Right now the pro-mask lobbyists are empowered to complain to companies, cause arguments with members of the public and waste police time over people not wearing face coverings. This MUST end.

I agree it must end. But it works both ways, such as from anti-maskers antagonising those who are wearing them, such as in the news article I have quoted above. This also wastes police time.

I agree they are not learning from their mistakes; we should have been much more like Sweden!

Yes, we need to learn from all countries involved. Sweden have done some things right, but some things wrong. Both Sweden’s PM and King have said the country has failed with its Covid 19 procedures, for example.

 

[duncanp]

Well if reports are true that tommorow Boris is going to say that masks should continue to be worn I expect him to backtrack on more things and urge more caution

The reports I have seen say that the government will "expect" masks to be worn in certain settings, but that they will no longer be compulsory.

You should be able to stand at the bar and chat to someone else, provided that the pub you are in allows it.

I really don't think that Boris will change his mind and keep face coverings mandatory.

Much as there is pressure for him to do so, there is also pressure from businesses and a sizeable section of his own party to abolish compulsory mask wearing.

 

[Jamesrob637]

The reports I have seen say that the government will "expect" masks to be worn in certain settings, but that they will no longer be compulsory.

You should be able to stand at the bar and chat to someone else, provided that the pub you are in allows it.

I really don't think that Boris will change his mind and keep face coverings mandatory.

Much as there is pressure for him to do so, there is also pressure from businesses and a sizeable section of his own party to abolish compulsory mask wearing.

I've heard this too
So there is a big element of freedom from tomorrow week but also a pang of disappointment.

 

[STINT47]

Sounds like it's going to be a bit of a mess.

Businesses and individuals deciding for themselves leading to confusion and conflict between those who chose to wear/require masks and those that do not.

Personally I will not be using a mask if not required to do so by law a d any business that makes wearing one a requirement will not get my custom.

I just hope we can all be respectful of each other personal choice and avoid conflict.

 

[Failed Unit]

Sounds like it's going to be a bit of a mess.

Businesses and individuals deciding for themselves leading to confusion and conflict between those who chose to wear/require masks and those that do not.

Personally I will not be using a mask if not required to do so by law a d any business that makes wearing one a requirement will not get my custom.

I just hope we can all be respectful of each other personal choice and avoid conflict.

I agree. It will be interesting to watch.
I won’t use any business that requires you to wear a mask, other people may choose only to frequent such businesses. It will be interesting to see which businesses are more succesful. I suspect if one approach is better than the other - the rest will follow the crowd.
i do like the table service, it will be interesting to see if this continues. But many people prefer going to the bar. i must admit going to the bar does enable you to meet many interesting people.
As for public transport. Where possible it would be great if you had the choice. Front x coaches no mask. Rear x coaches mask. Upstairs no mask downstairs mask. Everyone wins. (Maybe)

 

[Yew]

I don’t remember hearing anyone saying the ‘magical’ masks would ‘stop’ Covid. It helps prevent it rather than stop it. I’m glad most people have worn masks in this pandemic.

There was clear suggestion that the reason Japan was doing so well was because of masks.

 

[yorkie]

People have always chosen not to wear one even when not exempt. I won’t say my opinion on that. And yes, I do accept others will choose not to wear one from July 19th, as they have no legal obligation to do so. Whether I agree with it is another matter.

That's fine; I am happy to disagree with you

It would be difficult to prove both ways what impact mask wearing has had on the increasing South Korea cases or on Sweden’s cases. I’d be interested to know if masks have stopped South Korea’s or Sweden’s cases going even higher.

Yes that's what the pro-mask lobbyists usually say, despite no evidence whatsoever for assertions. You could equally compare North Dakota vs South Dakota.

I accept that masks arnt completely effective,

This is a huge understatement; I refer you to the study above in which an effective mask designed to filter virus particles resulted in a 47 fold decrease in cases compared to ineffective masks which are currently mandated.

but there is still division amongst the scientific community about how effective they are.

Indeed there is, but those who claim they are effective tend to quote theories and studies which are not based on real world evidence. They also ignore the drawbacks such as the exclusion some members of society feel by the mandate, as well as the tension and conflict they create.

So, until it becomes more established what the effect is, I will wait until deciding for myself.

We had no option in waiting and deciding for ourselves from around this time last year as the pro mask brigade were able to mandate to us.

We need to all have the option to decide for ourselves

Well, it is insinuated that people wearing masks are just ignorant sheep. There have also been a minority of people confronting people wearing masks in the UK, such as in Maidstone recently

https://www.kentonline.co.uk/maidst...s-berating-passers-by-for-wearing-mas-250054/

That is one case but there have been many more the other way.
https://www.kentonline.co.uk/maidst...s-berating-passers-by-for-wearing-mas-250054/

I agree there is tension now. However, different parts of the government saying different things is not going to help matters. Either say continue wearing masks, or say you don’t need to wear them. It shouldn’t be in between.

People should be able to choose. End of.

I agree it must end. But it works both ways, such as from anti-maskers antagonising those who are wearing them, such as in the news article I have quoted above. This also wastes police time.

Such incidents are very rare. Harassment of people not wearing masks is much more common. Disability charities are inundated with reports of discrimination cases.

Yes, we need to learn from all countries involved. Sweden have done some things right, but some things wrong. Both Sweden’s PM and King have said the country has failed with its Covid 19 procedures, for example.

Please provide a link and quote to back up your claim. My recollection is that they made similar mistakes to us in respect of care homes, but in almost all other measures they did better than us.

 

[yorksrob]

I think Nick Triggle has hit the nail on the head when he says that the scientists are wary of lifting mask restrictions:

Covid-19: Masks still expected to be worn indoors after 19 July - Zahawi

England is moving from "you must" wear a mask to "you are expected to", the vaccines minister says.

www.bbc.co.uk

"Not because mask wearing in some indoor settings will dramatically alter the course of rising infections, but because of the message it sends out.

The feeling is that it gives the impression infections no longer matter, and encourages people to think about themselves rather than others."

Whilst sending out messages might be a good enough reason to wear a face cloth on long journeys for some behavioural scientists and the like, it's not for me.

I will consider doing something if there is an element of efficacy, not to send out messages.

 

[DustyBin]

I think Nick Triggle has hit the nail on the head when he says that the scientists are wary of lifting mask restrictions:

Covid-19: Masks still expected to be worn indoors after 19 July - Zahawi

England is moving from "you must" wear a mask to "you are expected to", the vaccines minister says.

www.bbc.co.uk

"Not because mask wearing in some indoor settings will dramatically alter the course of rising infections, but because of the message it sends out.

The feeling is that it gives the impression infections no longer matter, and encourages people to think about themselves rather than others."

Whilst sending out messages might be a good enough reason to wear a face cloth on long journeys for some behavioural scientists and the like, it's not for me.

I will consider doing something if there is an element of efficacy, not to send out messages.

This is what the whole mask debacle has been about from the start, i.e. sending a message. Or to put it another way, fear and control. How some people cannot see this is beyond me.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I'm not in the mood to go hunting, and note that you haven't provided any evidence yourself. Suffice to say that all the studies I've seen claiming any benefit from masks were studying droplets rather than aerosols.

The dampness in the masks is caused by droplets, the vast majority of which fall quickly and harmlessly to the ground without infecting anybody. The aerosols pass straight through largely unimpeded by surgical masks and almost entirely unimpeded by cloth masks. Poorly-fitted masks make it possible even for the aerosols that are stopped by the material to exit around the edges.

They don't work for anything other than giving people the opportunity to feel like they're doing something. Using them as a real world mitigation measure for an an actual practical problem is like using rice pudding when laying bricks because you can't find any mortar.

Fair enough so ive had a punt around Google Scholar and almost all research is about the effectiveness of surgical masks to prevent you from catching the disease and its very polarised. Generally get the view they will provide some measure of protection to not much use. Ive managed to find a 2013 research report into how useful they were in an influenza transmission which came to the conclusion for large droplets >5um they were highly effective at capturing them but for sub 5um they were assessed as trapping 30% of exhaled aerosols.

https://journals.plos.org/plospatho...IrO6BT197Y4hllxA-UlnxwWe-jQbhT4t4QB8EswVweyx4

So on the face of it not that useful but when you look at what size droplets are likely to contain the virus other reports assert that its the large droplets where its concentration is highest so if you can capture them by a surgical mask you are significantly moderating the amount of virus containing aerosol that enters the environment around an infected person.

The real rub here is that everyone has to wear them for it to act as a control measure as none of us are sure we aren't asymptomatic but govt have lost that argument over last 7 days with minister after minister saying they aren't going to wear them so all bets are off now. Hopefully, they will act sooner over the self isolation protocol although with many people self deleting the app and the NHS even promoting that their staff should remove it the issue of vast amounts of self isolated people stalling the recovery may never materialise.

 

[Yew]

Fair enough so ive had a punt around Google Scholar and almost all research is about the effectiveness of surgical masks to prevent you from catching the disease and its very polarised. Generally get the view they will provide some measure of protection to not much use. Ive managed to find a 2013 research report into how useful they were in an influenza transmission which came to the conclusion for large droplets >5um they were highly effective at capturing them but for sub 5um they were assessed as trapping 30% of exhaled aerosols.

https://journals.plos.org/plospatho...IrO6BT197Y4hllxA-UlnxwWe-jQbhT4t4QB8EswVweyx4

So on the face of it not that useful but when you look at what size droplets are likely to contain the virus other reports assert that its the large droplets where its concentration is highest so if you can capture them by a surgical mask you are significantly moderating the amount of virus containing aerosol that enters the environment around an infected person.

The real rub here is that everyone has to wear them for it to act as a control measure as none of us are sure we aren't asymptomatic but govt have lost that argument over last 7 days with minister after minister saying they aren't going to wear them so all bets are off now. Hopefully, they will act sooner over the self isolation protocol although with many people self deleting the app and the NHS even promoting that their staff should remove it the issue of vast amounts of self isolated people stalling the recovery may never materialise.

You've fallen for a typical bait and switch, we're interested in disease transmission, not droplet filtration effectiveness.

 

[DustyBin]

So on the face of it not that useful but when you look at what size droplets are likely to contain the virus other reports assert that its the large droplets where its concentration is highest so if you can capture them by a surgical mask you are significantly moderating the amount of virus containing aerosol that enters the environment around an infected person.

Large droplets are emitted as a result of a person coughing or sneezing, which they may well do as a result of symptomatic covid (this takes us back to the 2m rule which is based on some very old but seemingly sound research regarding the travel distance of unabated droplets). Therefore the risk can equally be mitigated by using a tissue, as we’ve always been told to do. A positive “catch it, bin it, kill it” message would have been far preferable to masks which introduce various problems, both in terms of social cohesion and actual hygiene. But on the other hand masks serve as a permanent reminder of the “threat” so they were forced upon us regardless. I’ve seen nothing at all to suggest that I’m far wide of the mark here and the removal of the mask mandate can’t come soon enough.

 

[island]

Nearly a million people are still tied to a Post Office account with the basic card that can only be used in branch.

Just about nobody is “tied to a Post Office Account”. The nine biggest banks are legally obliged to offer basic bank accounts to all-comers, including the bankrupt, people with credit defaults, and those without traditional forms of ID. Many people opt to use post office accounts for whatever reason but very few indeed are without choice in the matter.

 

[midland1]

The BBC last night showed the film Darkest Hour, Boris,s hero is Churchill did he watch it last night and does he want to be seen as Churchill or the cowardly Lord Halifax, who wanted to run up the white flag. This week might tell us.

 

[Darandio]

Just about nobody is “tied to a Post Office Account”. The nine biggest banks are legally obliged to offer basic bank accounts to all-comers, including the bankrupt, people with credit defaults, and those without traditional forms of ID. Many people opt to use post office accounts for whatever reason but very few indeed are without choice in the matter.

By tied I mean those who still have it are tied to a system whereby they can only access their funds by visiting a branch. Money will not be paid into these accounts from November 2021 (talks are still ongoing about extending due to the disruption over the last 18 months) and there are still nearly a million who haven't switched yet. I suspect it's many of the older generation.

 

[greyman42]

I am becoming increasingly alarmed with the situation will have to consider what to do as free for all day approaches.

Well if many of the polls are to be believed not much is going to change on July 19th because most people are going to be continuing with the present restrictions.

 

[bramling]

Well if many of the polls are to be believed not much is going to change on July 19th because most people are going to be continuing with the present restrictions.

Certainly hear in the north-east continuing as-is means normal life. Apart from some mask use, signs in shop windows and the odd poster or announcement, you wouldn’t know there anything abnormal.

 

[greyman42]

Today I've seen both Javid and Zahawi say they think people should continue wearing masks even after the mandate is lifted. One word comes to mind to describe what I think is going on: gaslighting.

As long as it is optional, that's fine by me.

 

[Jamesrob637]

As long as it is optional, that's fine by me.

Same. Taking one with me isn't a hassle but if I've forgotten on the odd occasion it's fine too.

 

[duncanp]

Well if many of the polls are to be believed not much is going to change on July 19th because most people are going to be continuing with the present restrictions.

According to the Daily Mail, 50% of people want restrictions to stay, which also means that 50% of people want restrictions removed.

You may find that some people carrying on wearing masks in situations where they are no longer compulsory, but I think that will be in large part due to "COVID-19 Anxiety Syndrome", which I posted about earlier, and also the disgraceful moral blackmail being perpetrated by some people. (Remember the odious "Look Him In The Eyes" adverts we saw earlier in the year.

Over time, I think compliance with government "guidance" will drop, as people get used to the new arrangements.

We are already seeing this, as mask wearing on public transport has dropped, and the observance of social distancing is getting less and less.

Pubs and restaurants seem to be getting less fussy about taking track and trace details.

I am also quite sure that people are gathering indoors at the moment in contravention of the current regulations.

 

[Class 33]

From my observations of walking around, the amount of people "socially distancing" now when passing people in the street is very very few and far between. Hardly anyone is bothering with this nonsense now. I'd say it's about 99.7%. At times you still get the odd one or two who practically jumps out into the road when they see you approaching them. But near enough everyone is no longer socially distancing, as it's absolutely pointless!

I simply don't believe these polls that say as many as about 70% or even about 50% want restrictions to stay. Just no way can it be as high as those figures! IF face mask wearing in indoor settings/public transport does become optional from 19th July, just you see how many people will still be wearing them. Very very few people will I reacon! These polls will be proved extremely inaccurate! The vast majority of us have had enough of this nonsense dragging on for so long, and can't wait to ditch the things for good!

 

[alex397]

This is a huge understatement; I refer you to the study above in which an effective mask designed to filter virus particles resulted in a 47 fold decrease in cases compared to ineffective masks which are currently mandated.

As I have said, there are studies on either side of the argument, all from reputable and peer reviewed sources. I’m not disagreeing with the study you have linked, but it’s hard for the general public to be sure themselves with evidence on both sides.

We had no option in waiting and deciding for ourselves from around this time last year as the pro mask brigade were able to mandate to us.

I don’t really understand what this pro-mask ‘brigade’ is. Is it another non-existent thing like the PC ‘Brigade’.
I accept there have been a minority who have loved all the authoritarianism and loved telling everyone what to do, to the point where they have been discriminatory to people who are exempt. But there have also been a minority of anti-maskers and anti-vaxxers aggravating people.

People should be able to choose. End of.

To some extent. People shouldn’t be able to chose whether they can use a mobile phone while driving , or choose what the speed limit is. This is a global pandemic and we had to do all we could to help. If it turns out masks weren’t that effective, then in my opinion it’s a small price to pay.
This has been a global pandemic and the public need clear instructions of what to do, not just choose what they want to do. Hopefully though we won’t have restrictions much longer

Such incidents are very rare. Harassment of people not wearing masks is much more common. Disability charities are inundated with reports of discrimination cases.

I’m not neccessarily disagreeing, but is there proof such incidents have been rare? Or less common than pro-mask incidents? Many may not have been reported.

As someone who thinks there needs to be some sort of ‘Disabled Lives Matter’ movement, I have also been concerned with how disabled people have suffered through this, from being let down by government and from abuse by the general public such as with mask wearing.

Please provide a link and quote to back up your claim. My recollection is that they made similar mistakes to us in respect of care homes, but in almost all other measures they did better than us.

BBCNews, 17th December 2020 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55347021

Sweden's king has said his country "failed" to save lives with its relatively relaxed approach to the coronavirus pandemic.
King Carl XVI Gustaf made the remarks as part of an annual TV review of the year with the royal family.
Sweden, which has never imposed a full lockdown, has seen nearly 350,000 cases and more than 7,800 deaths - a lot more than its Scandinavian neighbours.
Prime Minister Stefan Lofven said he agreed with the king's remarks.
"Of course the fact that so many have died can't be considered as anything other than a failure," Mr Lofven told reporters.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm not aware that Sweden's Monarch or PM are any more expert in epidemiology or public health than our own Monarch and PM.

 

[alex397]

I'm not aware that Sweden's Monarch or PM are any more expert in epidemiology or public health than our own Monarch and PM.

You’re probably right. But the figures speak for themselves - Sweden have had more cases/deaths than their neighbours. While they may have done a lot right, they have failed in other ways (like many places). So I don’t think we should be suggesting Sweden is the best country to look towards.

 

[DustyBin]

I'm not aware that Sweden's Monarch or PM are any more expert in epidemiology or public health than our own Monarch and PM.

In regard to Sweden, they completely messed up when it came to care homes the same as us, otherwise I think they handled things pretty well. It’s worth remembering that they faced a lot of criticism and calls to “be like New Zealand” from people who tried to bully them into locking down, and at times I think they came close to losing their nerve hence statements like that made by their king.