Cross Country get three-year extension

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Parallel

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That said, I’m on a XC 170 now and there is virtually no leg room. Probably how they managed to cram so many seats in! Can’t actually fit my legs in unless I sit bolt upright.
 

swt_passenger

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py_megapixel

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How utterly ridiculous. A slap in the face to the people who have had to put up with this absolute shambles of a TOC's operations for over a decade now.

The nonspecific "benefits to improve the travelling experience" is probably entirely meaningless, unless it involves more stock from somewhere. I would hope at least that the Avanti voyagers will be transferred, but that's far from certain, and they really need more than that.

I wonder if they'll bother with a refurbishment of the existing fleet? It's long overdue and really the least that is even vaguely acceptable in my view - it's rather amusing that the only rolling stock to carry the Virgin west coast stripes doesn't operate on the west coast franchise!
 

6026KingJohn

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When comparing seating between a 4 coach Voyager and a 3 coach Turbo, it might be worth remembering that on a Voyager only half of the end vehicles are available for passengers. Thus there are only three coaches worth of seats (two full coaches and two half coaches) and so the number of seats should be comparable.
 

Class 170101

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That said, I’m on a XC 170 now and there is virtually no leg room. Probably how they managed to cram so many seats in! Can’t actually fit my legs in unless I sit bolt upright.
The XC ones do tend to have less leg room than when they had them on Anglia or currently Scotrail in my experience and in consequence I find them less comfortable than other operators with the same trains.
 

RT4038

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How utterly ridiculous. A slap in the face to the people who have had to put up with this absolute shambles of a TOC's operations for over a decade now.

The nonspecific "benefits to improve the travelling experience" is probably entirely meaningless, unless it involves more stock from somewhere. I would hope at least that the Avanti voyagers will be transferred, but that's far from certain, and they really need more than that.

I wonder if they'll bother with a refurbishment of the existing fleet? It's long overdue and really the least that is even vaguely acceptable in my view - it's rather amusing that the only rolling stock to carry the Virgin west coast stripes doesn't operate on the west coast franchise!
Me thinks a large dollop of hyperbole here. I have travelled extensively on Cross-Country in the last decade, almost all on journeys north and south of Birmingham New Street. I have not experienced 'absolute shambles'. Yes, sometimes trains have been late, but where in the core of our overcrowded system has this not been the case? Yes, I have been on some overcrowded trains, but if you travel at peak times to and from major cities you will encounter passengers standing on many trains, irrespective of operator. Yes, I have encountered poor service by the tea trolley, but it has not been the end of my world. Have I had pleasant journeys by XC? Yes, plenty. Take a train from Birmingham NS shortly after 9am on a weekday going South West - plenty of seats, pleasant scenery [pre-covid of course, but probably even more empty seats now!]

Would XC benefit from more carriages on some trains? Yes, but I doubt this will be a big issue for sometime to come.
 
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When comparing seating between a 4 coach Voyager and a 3 coach Turbo, it might be worth remembering that on a Voyager only half of the end vehicles are available for passengers. Thus there are only three coaches worth of seats (two full coaches and two half coaches) and so the number of seats should be comparable.
I used to travel regularly between Soutampton Birmingham and the north west on the voyagers. I recall there always used to be lots of space in the doorway areas, (wasted space?) to stand if the seats were all occupied. Till I just read this discussion, I never knew the reason for squeezing the seating areas with so many access for all toilets in the voyager was because of the Virgin 3 class plan. It seems crazy looking back in hindsight. The whole train seating configuration plan seems ill thought out.
 

2L70

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Me thinks a large dollop of hyperbole here. I have travelled extensively on Cross-Country in the last decade, almost all on journeys north and south of Birmingham New Street. I have not experienced 'absolute shambles'. Yes, sometimes trains have been late, but where in the core of our overcrowded system has this not been the case? Yes, I have been on some overcrowded trains, but if you travel at peak times to and from major cities you will encounter passengers standing on many trains, irrespective of operator.
The most crowded XC journeys i've made are Birmingham - Tamworth, Doncaster - Sheffield, Birmingham - Wolverhampton, all to be expected with the volume of traffic between these places. Not like ive had to stand up for long distance like on TPE from Manchester to Carlisle or on LNER Doncaster to Newcastle.
 

37424

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The XC ones do tend to have less leg room than when they had them on Anglia or currently Scotrail in my experience and in consequence I find them less comfortable than other operators with the same trains.
Isn't it the ex midland units that have the most cramped legroom, certainly the Anglia units are fine. Voyager units aren't very efficient seating wise.
 

david1212

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The most crowded XC journeys i've made are Birmingham - Tamworth, Doncaster - Sheffield, Birmingham - Wolverhampton, all to be expected with the volume of traffic between these places. Not like ive had to stand up for long distance like on TPE from Manchester to Carlisle or on LNER Doncaster to Newcastle.
I've stood / perched on a voyager luggage rack from Birmingham to Chesterfield and while I've had a seat because I joined further back numerous times standing room only from Basingstoke to Bournemouth.

Back when the franchise was re-let in 2006/7 capacity was already inadequate yet the only changes to the voyagers was squeezing in a few more seats. The only expansion for the long distance routes were five ? HST's plus any hired for peak Summer Saturdays.
The requirements should have included significant expansion of the voyager fleet. Back then there were no restrictions preventing new build with the QSK19 engine. Adding electric power was another option discussed many times since but never implemented. The bottom line is right across their franchises Arriva have never added to their fleet beyond any franchise commitment.

Time will tell where 20000 seats a week / almost 3000 seats a day come from and when. The logical sources are the voyagers operated by Avanti and the MML Meridians when replaced with 8xx IET's.
 

37424

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I've stood / perched on a voyager luggage rack from Birmingham to Chesterfield and while I've had a seat because I joined further back numerous times standing room only from Basingstoke to Bournemouth.

Back when the franchise was re-let in 2006/7 capacity was already inadequate yet the only changes to the voyagers was squeezing in a few more seats. The only expansion for the long distance routes were five ? HST's plus any hired for peak Summer Saturdays.
The requirements should have included significant expansion of the voyager fleet. Back then there were no restrictions preventing new build with the QSK19 engine. Adding electric power was another option discussed many times since but never implemented. The bottom line is right across their franchises Arriva have never added to their fleet beyond any franchise commitment.

Time will tell where 20000 seats a week / almost 3000 seats a day come from and when. The logical sources are the voyagers operated by Avanti and the MML Meridians when replaced with 8xx IET's.
Your right but the Dft are calling the shots on rolling stock and they are not likely to go for additional capacity such as the Avanti Voyagers until if/when demand returns.
 

Domh245

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Time will tell where 20000 seats a week / almost 3000 seats a day come from and when. The logical sources are the voyagers operated by Avanti and the MML Meridians when replaced with 8xx IET's.
3000 seats a day isn't many when you get down to it. 6x 170 middle cars is an additional 480 seats, giving you the 3000 seats with a little over 6 trips for each
 

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