Cross Country Service Reductions and Alterations, 28-11-2021 onwards

[geoffk]

Have checked RTT and the trains on the West of England route which were HSTs until last week are today 4 or 5 car trains (a 220 and a 221). The bad weather in the north of England/Scotland will no doubt mean reduced travel today.

 

[RT4038]

No. RDW is paid at flat rate at XC, so it costs the same to cover a job no matter whether the driver is rostered or having it as "extras".

It's not hard to explain, or to understand. The problem is that too many people on this thread seem to assume that it must be because the drivers are trying to screw more out of the company. This just isn't the case. As outlined in post #114, the issue is that XC is not abiding by the correct rostering procedure which is set out in the driver's terms of service. It is also not necessarily linked to practices related to rest-day working.

Understood. So I guess that XC's management do not agree that their rostering dept. is not abiding by the correct rostering procedure which is set out in the driver's terms of service and therefore have a different interpretation to ASLEF. Presumably the ASLEF interpretation would reduce flexibility and/or cost money in one way or another to implement?

 

[Zerothebrake!]

No. RDW is paid at flat rate at XC, so it costs the same to cover a job no matter whether the driver is rostered or having it as "extras".

It's not hard to explain, or to understand. The problem is that too many people on this thread seem to assume that it must be because the drivers are trying to screw more out of the company. This just isn't the case. As outlined in post #114, the issue is that XC is not abiding by the correct rostering procedure which is set out in the driver's terms of service. It is also not necessarily linked to practices related to rest-day working.

RDW M/F is paid at time and a quarter, Sat RDW is paid at time and a third - it's Sundays that are paid at flat rate.

 

[dk1]

See post #114.

Cheers mate. Our rostering dept wouldn't dream of doing that. Okay mistakes are made but they are always put right by them if not the duty traincrew manager.

 

[D9006]

What’s this obsession with people on this forum believing all Railway Staff only work Monday to Saturday? I’m a Train Driver who has worked for three different TOCs, at every one of those companies Sundays have been inside the normal working week.
And for what it’s worth, I don’t have a problem with that.

Good on you, think that’s 1st time not heard driver whinging about working Sunday’s, respect to you

 

[Dieseldriver]

Good on you, think that’s 1st time not heard driver whinging about working Sunday’s, respect to you

There’s plenty of Drivers who don’t moan about working Sundays.

 

[dk1]

There’s plenty of Drivers who don’t moan about working Sundays.

I certainly fall into that category. My record is 10 consecutive Sundays working.

 

[NEDdrv]

So from one side this agreement was due to be renegotiated as all agreements are.

ASLEF requests more £££ to there members (understandable considering current financial constraints everyday people are under). The operator doesn't have the additional £££ to keep the agreement going and eventually talks break down.

Whilst XC are under a DA (not sure if they are still part of an ERMA) there is literally no money in the pot as it were.

It's a very sad state if affairs and I do wonder if covid wasn't a thing that this agreement would of been extended.

No, there was no renegotiation, not asking for more money, just that the laid down agreements within the rest day agreement were adhered to correctly.

 

[181]

Timetables for next weekend have appeared at https://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/coronavirus-timetable-updates. The Voyager routes seem more affected than during the week -- a quick look suggests that 4 Reading-Manchester trains are missing compared with the 'new normal' post-Covid timetable, and 4 (or to be precise 3 plus a Birmingham starter) in the opposite direction. (This leaves 12 trains between Reading and Birmingham compared with 32, or 31 southbound, pre-Covid). At least there are no gaps of more than 2 hours (except early morning departures from Manchester, where there appear to be alternatives involving a change of train). Sunday appears to have a 'full' hourly service, at least on the part I checked south of Birmingham (although that's still only 13 trains becuse of the usual later start).

I haven't looked (beyond a brief glance) at other routes.

 

[O L Leigh]

RDW M/F is paid at time and a quarter, Sat RDW is paid at time and a third - it's Sundays that are paid at flat rate.

Whoops!! Thanks for the correction.

Understood. So I guess that XC's management do not agree that their rostering dept. is not abiding by the correct rostering procedure which is set out in the driver's terms of service and therefore have a different interpretation to ASLEF. Presumably the ASLEF interpretation would reduce flexibility and/or cost money in one way or another to implement?

But it's not a matter of interpretation.

The rostering procedure is clearly stated in black and white within the driver's terms of service; terms that have been agreed between the company and the union many years ago. Where there are breaches, these will be clear, obvious and unambiguous and not down to differences in interpretation. That a company can only manage to cover all the jobs by circumventing proper process is neither here nor there because it has agreed to these procedures and cannot waive or alter them to suit it's own needs.

Good on you, think that’s 1st time not heard driver whinging about working Sunday’s, respect to you

I think that's just the preponderance of forum anti-union bias that causes folk to view drivers as backward reactionaries who are only looking for the next opportunity to screw the company/Government/public over in order to satisfy their voracious avarice. While there may be some individuals who might fit at least part of that stereotype, it certainly is not borne out in the vast majority of messrooms I visit.

 

[Nova1]

Interesting - XC tweeted that there were no advance tickets for services this week because of the reduced timetable.

https://twitter.com/crosscountryuk/status/1465450262760509446

 

[Jonny]

Lack of driver competency i’d imagine

As a non-railway person who has some understanding of the concept of "traction knowledge", do you mean HST-specific competency?

 

[Wyrleybart]

No, there was no renegotiation, not asking for more money, just that the laid down agreements within the rest day agreement were adhered to correctly.

That is not how I have heard it, but I have no evidence.
I was told ASLEF want XC to pay any volunteer driver a "premium" in addition to the hours, and that driver would receive half that premium for staying at home unused.
Obviously any negotiation would need to be agreed by DfT anyway so reading between the lines, it would be easy to assume that ASLEF haven't got what they wanted from XC - if the above is actually true.

 

[RT4038]

Whoops!! Thanks for the correction.



But it's not a matter of interpretation.

The rostering procedure is clearly stated in black and white within the driver's terms of service; terms that have been agreed between the company and the union many years ago. Where there are breaches, these will be clear, obvious and unambiguous and not down to differences in interpretation. That a company can only manage to cover all the jobs by circumventing proper process is neither here nor there because it has agreed to these procedures and cannot waive or alter them to suit it's own needs.

I see. There must be more to it than that. Somewhere there is some money, or the demand for extra money, involved (see post #283). So I am guessing that this non-adherance to the agreed rostering procedure has been a fairly long standing practice and ASLEF are effectively demanding money to either continue with it, or compliance with the agreement produces inefficiency which leads to staff being paid for not actually doing any work, as a 'back door' means of getting a pay increase?

 

[O L Leigh]

That is not how I have heard it, but I have no evidence.
I was told ASLEF want XC to pay any volunteer driver a "premium" in addition to the hours, and that driver would receive half that premium for staying at home unused.
Obviously any negotiation would need to be agreed by DfT anyway so reading between the lines, it would be easy to assume that ASLEF haven't got what they wanted from XC - if the above is actually true.

I see. There must be more to it than that. Somewhere there is some money, or the demand for extra money, involved (see post #283). So I am guessing that this non-adherance to the agreed rostering procedure has been a fairly long standing practice and ASLEF are effectively demanding money to either continue with it, or compliance with the agreement produces inefficiency which leads to staff being paid for not actually doing any work, as a 'back door' means of getting a pay increase?

Then between the two of you, you are inventing some other dispute, one that bears no relation to the situation that exists in reality.

 

[Jurg]

Then between the two of you, you are inventing some other dispute, one that bears no relation to the situation that exists in reality.

There is a depressingly large subset of the population who can only understand trade unionism by reference to a made-up bogeyman of their own imagination, brought on by too much exposure to tabloid journalism and Margaret Thatcher speeches.

They tend to be more bothered by how much a tube driver in London that they've never met earns, than how their own employer treats them.

The mere thought of working people democratically and collectively interacting with their employers wakes them in the middle of the night in terror at visions of power cuts and uncollected rubbish.

Through this prism, the suggestion that employees may have concerns that are not monetary does not compute. It's much more comforting to make up a conspiracy suggesting that money is involved.

 

[RT4038]

There is a depressingly large subset of the population who can only understand trade unionism by reference to a made-up bogeyman of their own imagination, brought on by too much exposure to tabloid journalism and Margaret Thatcher speeches.

They tend to be more bothered by how much a tube driver in London that they've never met earns, than how their own employer treats them.

The mere thought of working people democratically and collectively interacting with their employers wakes them in the middle of the night in terror at visions of power cuts and uncollected rubbish.

Through this prism, the suggestion that employees may have concerns that are not monetary does not compute. It's much more comforting to make up a conspiracy suggesting that money is involved.

It is either money or quantity of work, otherwise why would it be worth a dispute?

 

[O L Leigh]

It is either money or quantity of work, otherwise why would it be worth a dispute?

See post #114.

 

[RT4038]

See post #114.

But post #114 does not give any detail. If this is happening and the management are not prepared to rectify, presumably after repeated requests, there must be some underlying reason for this. Your comment in #280 'That a company can only manage to cover all the jobs by circumventing proper process is neither here nor there because it has agreed to these procedures and cannot waive or alter them to suit it's own needs' seems to indicate this. That the management, and the staff, are prepared to have a damaging dispute over the issue would seem to indicate that there is something important at stake rather than some minor transgressions due to error.

 

[irish_rail]

There is a depressingly large subset of the population who can only understand trade unionism by reference to a made-up bogeyman of their own imagination, brought on by too much exposure to tabloid journalism and Margaret Thatcher speeches.

They tend to be more bothered by how much a tube driver in London that they've never met earns, than how their own employer treats them.

The mere thought of working people democratically and collectively interacting with their employers wakes them in the middle of the night in terror at visions of power cuts and uncollected rubbish.

Through this prism, the suggestion that employees may have concerns that are not monetary does not compute. It's much more comforting to make up a conspiracy suggesting that money is involved.

Hit the nail on the head there matey. Too many believe whatever the Mail and Express tell them to believe.

 

[Zerothebrake!]

We have one that worked all 52 a year or two back.

There’s plenty of Drivers who don’t moan about working Sundays.

 

[DDB]

I've only just seen this thread and too late as they have withdrawn one of the last remaining services to actually call at Spondon. There is of course no publicity at Spondon station as there never is as EMR just go nothing to do with us despite earlier claiming they had arranged extra XC stops.

 

[P Binnersley]

There has been a 2x4 car voyager parked on the down slow at Coventry (off the north end of Platform 4) since Sunday. These engines were ticking over when I went past this morning, but open train maps (https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/rugbhm_1) as still stabled ("STBD") there. Is the depot full with all the cancellations? This is an unusual place to stable a unit, especially as there is space in the sidings. Sorry, couldn't see unit numbers.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It is not sustainable to have the industries ability to operate services overly dependant on RDW agreement especially as train crew already have to work unplanned hours during disruption so an industry wide solution ought to be thrashed out with RDG and ASLEF that all operators are required to work to so its clear to those specifying services in DofT are under no illusion what level of resources are required.

Also from this thread I can see that the main issue is continuous breaches by XC rostering teams but what has caused them to have to do that isn't clear and certainly from Arriva XC they just cite train crew availability without an explanation nor a plan or forecast for recovery. They should be held accountable in public as GTR were over May 18 timetable fiasco so its clear to passengers when normality will return.

 

[warwickshire]

There has been a 2x4 car voyager parked on the down slow at Coventry (off the north end of Platform 4) since Sunday. These engines were ticking over when I went past this morning, but open train maps (https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/rugbhm_1) as still stabled ("STBD") there. Is the depot full with all the cancellations? This is an unusual place to stable a unit, especially as there is space in the sidings. Sorry, couldn't see unit numbers.

it's the one further up this thread that hit a tree between kenilworth and Coventry on Saturday during the storm.

 

[O L Leigh]

That the management, and the staff, are prepared to have a damaging dispute over the issue would seem to indicate that there is something important at stake rather than some minor transgressions due to error.

Who’s saying that it’s a minor transgression due to error?

Look, I’m sorry that this situation doesn’t appear to fit your mental template for what an industrial dispute should look like. There are people contributing to this thread who are on the inside of this one who have already explained what’s going on and why. You can look for subtexts all you like, but they aren’t there.

There has been a 2x4 car voyager parked on the down slow at Coventry (off the north end of Platform 4) since Sunday. These engines were ticking over when I went past this morning, but open train maps (https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/rugbhm_1) as still stabled ("STBD") there. Is the depot full with all the cancellations? This is an unusual place to stable a unit, especially as there is space in the sidings. Sorry, couldn't see unit numbers.

That’s the train that had an argument with a tree on the Kenilworth branch at the weekend. It’s being regularly attended by fitters (which is why you saw it running) to try and get it into a condition whereby it can be moved to the depot.

 

[NEDdrv]

If I’m honest from what I can see none of the parties involved here are in the right. ASLEF need to ballot their membership first and foremost before implementing what is in practice an overtime ban (as that’s effectively what this equates to, even if it’s not called that on paper). Arriva need to be making much more of an effort to get enough staff on the books to be able to operate their full service, and in the case of the HST diagrams with crews that sign the traction so that short forms aren’t needed. The DFT needs to stop applying pressure to make cuts (although having a level of understanding about the way the DFT and other government departments are working at present, they don’t have anywhere near as much control over XC as some posters like to make out), and the staff also need to be prepared to try and find some sort of compromise - at the end of the day if you’re not happy with your employer and you aren’t prepared to compromise then leave, nobody is forcing you to stay.

It’s not all staff, far from it, but there is a sizeable and vocal minority who seem to think they’re entitled to be paid in excess of £50k a year for sitting in the cab for 30 hours a week with little additional responsibility beyond literally driving the train. Bus drivers and lorry drivers often have to do more work than train drivers (both jobs and hours wise) , in arguably worse conditions, for often less than half the pay, I think some (and again I emphasise that it is only some) train drivers, as well as their unions, need to be grateful for what they’ve got when people who do a lot more than them get paid less than half the salary without complaining.

You seem to have an issue with what a driver gets paid, the bench mark to look at is the freight drivers as their companies have to still make a profit or they go out of business. Yes pay went up after privatisation as drivers became a commodity that was in need but expensive to train so companies poached by offering higher salaries, just like now with HGV drivers. You need to check your facts, we work more than 30 hrs a week. What do you think driving a train is like and what responsibilities do you think we have, are you from a railway background? Why do the staff need to find a compromise when there is an agreement which has been there for years being broken by the company. It is also not an overtime ban as we are committed, if required to work an Hour beyond our rostered day length and could be much more if on a short diagram where the last train working is late as we are committed to stay upto our maximum turn length of 10 Hrs.

 

[Efini92]

How did XC breach the contract? I have heard this said over and over with no facts or evidence presented.

You do realise not turning up means I don't get to see my 5 year old daughter and means I don't get to work? If I am lucky enough for a train to run I am rammed into a smelly voyager, standing room only, with a disability, which can cause me massive issues. That's the reality mate. I have T1 diabetes and was once rammed into a voyager vestibule and had a hypo. I could not get to my bag for glucose as nobody could move the train was so full and i collapsed. Again you don't care about that do you? It's all about making the tories look bad for the union, at any cost.

I for one am not going to put up with this anymore. Cutting services by 50% was bad but this is another level. You cannot defend the current cancellations when you are already not running half the services. Where are all the drivers?

I'm afraid you have lost public sympathy and support. Be careful for what you wish for with AI around the corner we may not need drivers soon. Such action only encourages the govt to pursue this new technology.

The rdw agreement is between XC and XC drivers, you won’t see the evidence because it’s got nothing to do with you.

That’s exactly the point, now rest days aren’t being worked it shows there is not enough staff to cover the services.

No. RDW is paid at flat rate at XC, so it costs the same to cover a job no matter whether the driver is rostered or having it as "extras".

It's not hard to explain, or to understand. The problem is that too many people on this thread seem to assume that it must be because the drivers are trying to screw more out of the company. This just isn't the case. As outlined in post #114, the issue is that XC is not abiding by the correct rostering procedure which is set out in the driver's terms of service. It is also not necessarily linked to practices related to rest-day working.

RDW has its own rate.
But you’re right, the not renewing the agreement has nothing to do with money. It was about xc not following rostering agreements.

 

[DanNCL]

You seem to have an issue with what a driver gets paid, the bench mark to look at is the freight drivers as their companies have to still make a profit or they go out of business. Yes pay went up after privatisation as drivers became a commodity that was in need but expensive to train so companies poached by offering higher salaries, just like now with HGV drivers. You need to check your facts, we work more than 30 hrs a week. What do you think driving a train is like and what responsibilities do you think we have, are you from a railway background? Why do the staff need to find a compromise when there is an agreement which has been there for years being broken by the company. It is also not an overtime ban as we are committed, if required to work an Hour beyond our rostered day length and could be much more if on a short diagram where the last train working is late as we are committed to stay upto our maximum turn length of 10 Hrs.

I didn’t say 30 hours a week at work I said 30 hours a week in the cab. 30 hours a week is equivalent to 6 hours a day driving time for 5 days a week. Ok so maybe it does need revising slightly upwards, but not by a huge amount.
Do I work for a rail operator? No and I’ve never claimed otherwise. I do however have a good understanding of the rail industry and the way it works. I am well aware of the level of responsibility that comes with being a driver, as well as the incredible amount of memory and concentration it requires. But there are lots of other jobs that require the same level of memory and concentration that don’t pay even half what train drivers get paid, yet you don’t hear those people moaning about conditions.
A compromise clearly is needed, there is zero evidence to suggest that either side of the dispute have made any effort to sort it out, and yes that does lie as much with XC as it does with the staff. Simply agreeing to make an effort to sort it out would be a compromise in itself. Considering how much train drivers already get paid in comparison to other jobs of equal importance and skill both in the terms of pay and perks (Find me an NHS surgeon that gets free or significantly reduced cost travel across the entire rail network, guaranteed days off for the first x number of people to request it, and extensive family and friends discounts), it’s no surprise the treasury and the public are fed up. Don’t bite the hand that feeds is the phrase that comes to mind. It’s not the majority of drivers but it is a very vocal minority of them.

 

[NoOnesFool]

The 4 Coach voyagers were designed to replace HSTs anyway. They now have more seating than when Virgin introduced them. All it needs is announcements not to stow bags on seats to stop the seat hogging brigade and most people should be seated nicely. First Class also copes rather well, even during peak hours there are spare seats. I've never had to stand when I travel First Class on a 4 Coach Voyager.