Cross Country Service Reductions and Alterations, 28-11-2021 onwards

[bramling]

Why can't they hire part time drivers to work Sundays and guarantee it as a rest day for all the other drivers? Obviously it's no use short term but it's a plausible solution long-term and might please ASLEF.

Simple answer to that one is £££ and practicality.

You’re having to pay all the costs associated with recruiting and employing a driver, and have to have all the logistics in place (management / training / competence assurance), but for all that are only getting one day’s worth of productive work out of them.

Similar to LU with the Night Tube - all the fixed costs of a 5-day driver, but only productive for 2 days.

Part time can have its place, but there’s no way you could realistically cover a full day of the week that way.

 

[Freemo]

First Class usually copes quite well. I have been on busy services from Manchester and everyone was seated nicely.

The train I picked up at Tamworth last night had the innovative idea of simply locking the internal door to passengers joining the service, which is certainly one way to ensure that.

 

[507020]

An XC First Class getting any usage? Wow!

I went in first class on an XC Voyager in the evening last week because the advance was only £4 more. Standard was crush loaded.

 

[Mugby]

I travelled from Derby to Leeds and back on Saturday, with a certain amount of trepidation before I went. As it happened it wasn't too bad.
I set off on the 1145 which was 2x 4-cars and returned on the 1811 which was 2x 5-cars.

It seems to me that half the population of Sheffield wants to go to Leeds on Saturdays, whether there's football or not. The 1145 from Derby just about cleared the Sheffield crowd but it was rammed, bearing in mind the next XC service had been taken out of the timetable.

The Sheffield-Leeds travellers will increase in number in these last few weekends up to Christmas and if XC cancel any Saturday morning trains or take them out or short form them, causing pax being prevented from boarding, I can foresee some angry scenes at Sheffield!

 

[Killingworth]

I travelled from Derby to Leeds and back on Saturday, with a certain amount of trepidation before I went. As it happened it wasn't too bad.
I set off on the 1145 which was 2x 4-cars and returned on the 1811 which was 2x 5-cars.

It seems to me that half the population of Sheffield wants to go to Leeds on Saturdays, whether there's football or not. The 1145 from Derby just about cleared the Sheffield crowd but it was rammed, bearing in mind the next XC service had been taken out of the timetable.

The Sheffield-Leeds travellers will increase in number in these last few weekends up to Christmas and if XC cancel any Saturday morning trains or take them out or short form them, causing pax being prevented from boarding, I can foresee some angry scenes at Sheffield!

Trains from Sheffield to Leeds or Manchester on Saturday mornings were always packed. Since Covid it's been getting even busier, not helped by EMR and XC removing and short forming trains with varying degrees of notice, or none at all. It's good to see so many using the railway but it begs the question, how do we cope with many more at these peak periods?

 

[NoOnesFool]

Simple answer to that one is £££ and practicality.

You’re having to pay all the costs associated with recruiting and employing a driver, and have to have all the logistics in place (management / training / competence assurance), but for all that are only getting one day’s worth of productive work out of them.

Similar to LU with the Night Tube - all the fixed costs of a 5-day driver, but only productive for 2 days.

Part time can have its place, but there’s no way you could realistically cover a full day of the week that way.

Is it really that much of a hit that DB/Arriva can't afford it? Is it more cost effective to have cancelled services? The railways are not cheap to run, I know that but you have to take a loss for the greater gain and the rail fares are a premium rate for a premium service. I can't see it making a big dent in their profits and it could help to ensure Arriva get the franchise renewal (which I hope they do). Perhaps it's time to cull some of these railcards for maximum profit, the 25-30 railcard is ridiculous, I fall in to that category and can say there is no need for my my age group to have it, many people my age have had the chance to progress to management positions. Perhaps we should axe the dirt cheap fares and focus on providing the premium service that forms the railway's unique selling point.

The train I picked up at Tamworth last night had the innovative idea of simply locking the internal door to passengers joining the service, which is certainly one way to ensure that.

Sorry can you explain this a bit more please, First Class was locked out of use? Are you referring to the First Class on 170s? I can't imagine it would meet the rule book requirements to have the train partitioned by locked doors with pax on board. The only case I have heard of this was in the 2006 Cumbrian train murder where the knifeman on the Voyager was locked in a carriage by himself.

 

[AgentGemini]

If XC are reducing services at the moment, is this having a knock on on their recruitment as they were having a massive drive for traincrew at one point recently?

 

[LowLevel]

Is it really that much of a hit that DB/Arriva can't afford it? Is it more cost effective to have cancelled services? The railways are not cheap to run, I know that but you have to take a loss for the greater gain and the rail fares are a premium rate for a premium service. I can't see it making a big dent in their profits and it could help to ensure Arriva get the franchise renewal (which I hope they do). Perhaps it's time to cull some of these railcards for maximum profit, the 25-30 railcard is ridiculous, I fall in to that category and can say there is no need for my my age group to have it, many people my age have had the chance to progress to management positions. Perhaps we should axe the dirt cheap fares and focus on providing the premium service that forms the railway's unique selling point.


Sorry can you explain this a bit more please, First Class was locked out of use? Are you referring to the First Class on 170s? I can't imagine it would meet the rule book requirements to have the train partitioned by locked doors with pax on board. The only case I have heard of this was in the 2006 Cumbrian train murder where the knifeman on the Voyager was locked in a carriage by himself.

Sometimes a carriage is locked out of use on Voyager formations where the train is longer than the platform. It's acceptable to have vehicles locked out of use providing the rule book requirements about defective doors are adhered to.

 

[NoOnesFool]

Sometimes a carriage is locked out of use on Voyager formations where the train is longer than the platform. It's acceptable to have vehicles locked out of use providing the rule book requirements about defective doors are adhered to.

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Watershed]

Is it really that much of a hit that DB/Arriva can't afford it?

It's not a question of what Arriva can afford. It's about whether the DfT will agree to it.

Is it more cost effective to have cancelled services?

As far as the DfT is concerned, absolutely. It would be most cost effective of all if no trains at all ran (as often happens during a strike).

The railways are not cheap to run

No, and that's the problem. The Treasury isn't prepared to continue funding them as they have for the last 21 months.

I know that but you have to take a loss for the greater gain

Unfortunately the government refuses to act in a strategic manner. Short-term loss reduction is all they care about.

the rail fares are a premium rate for a premium service

The fares are certainly a premium rate; the service is anything but.

I can't see it making a big dent in their profits

In the grand scheme of things, it wouldn't make a big difference to the losses that the railways make. But if you said that about everything...

it could help to ensure Arriva get the franchise renewal

It would make virtually no difference whatsoever. Unless they royally mess up (as Govia did on SE), they will continue to get extensions.

In this "brave new world" it's not for contracting TOCs to randomly decide to spend extra money. Everything needs DfT signoff.

Perhaps it's time to cull some of these railcards for maximum profit, the 25-30 railcard is ridiculous, I fall in to that category and can say there is no need for my my age group to have it, many people my age have had the chance to progress to management positions.

The 26-30 Railcard was a sop to try and convince Millenials the government cares about them. It's not going anywhere.

Perhaps we should axe the dirt cheap fares and focus on providing the premium service that forms the railway's unique selling point.

There are certainly some dirt cheap fares that I don't think will last, but the railway only provides a 'premium service' on a very small number of flows. In the vast majority of cases it offers a middling (at best) service and should be priced accordingly.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Sometimes a carriage is locked out of use on Voyager formations where the train is longer than the platform. It's acceptable to have vehicles locked out of use providing the rule book requirements about defective doors are adhered to.

Sorry for being off topic- Apparently yesterday a Cross Country 5-car 221 ran Plymouth to Birmingham with coaches A and F locked out of use due to door faults. (So only B C and D in use)
How would the train crew work this- given they'd have no space to store their belongings- no Train Manager's office in coach A or access to the catering space in coach F? Presumably just despatch from rear of coach D? (I think First Class was leading)

 

[NoOnesFool]

only B C and D in use)
How would the train crew work this- given they'd have no space to store their belongings

I can't comment on dispatch/other aspects but Meridians and Voyagers have stowage for crew belongings in the vestibules, the wall panels that open up.

only B C and D in use)
How would the train crew work this- given they'd have no space to store their belongings

I can't comment on dispatch/other aspects but Meridians and Voyagers have stowage for crew belongings in the vestibules, the wall panels that open up.

 

[LowLevel]

Sorry for being off topic- Apparently yesterday a Cross Country 5-car 221 ran Plymouth to Birmingham with coaches A and F locked out of use due to door faults. (So only B C and D in use)
How would the train crew work this- given they'd have no space to store their belongings- no Train Manager's office in coach A or access to the catering space in coach F? Presumably just despatch from rear of coach D? (I think First Class was leading)

The crew can still access the coaches if need be, it's just passengers that can't.

 

[Freemo]

Sorry can you explain this a bit more please, First Class was locked out of use? Are you referring to the First Class on 170s? I can't imagine it would meet the rule book requirements to have the train partitioned by locked doors with pax on board. The only case I have heard of this was in the 2006 Cumbrian train murder where the knifeman on the Voyager was locked in a carriage by himself.

Coach A on a double Voyager clearly had about six passengers in it and the door button, although illuminated, was not operable. After three attempts at knocking on the door over about two minutes we were allowed in by what I took to be an off-duty train manager after the following conversation:

"You can't come in."
"Why not?"
"This is First Class"
"I have a First Class ticket!"
"Oh."

Prior to being allowed in we were being kettled in the claustrophobic vestibule space by the toilet as passengers joined behind, which would feel very unsafe if it weren't par for the course on single CrossCountry 220s.

Presumably overcrowding resulted in them deciding to keep Standard passengers out of First at the expense of allowing in, you know, First Class passengers.

Edit: not a short platform issue either as the formation had A at the centre.

 

[NoOnesFool]

Coach A on a double Voyager clearly had about six passengers in it and the door button, although illuminated, was not operable. After three attempts at knocking on the door over about two minutes we were allowed in by what I took to be an off-duty train manager after the following conversation:

"You can't come in."
"Why not?"
"This is First Class"
"I have a First Class ticket!"
"Oh."

Prior to being allowed in we were being kettled in the claustrophobic vestibule space by the toilet as passengers joined behind, which would feel very unsafe if it weren't par for the course on single CrossCountry 220s.

Presumably overcrowding resulted in them deciding to keep Standard passengers out of First at the expense of allowing in, you know, First Class passengers.

Edit: not a short platform issue either as the formation had A at the centre.

This is certainly concerning to hear and I do hope you take this up with CrossCountry for investigation.

 

[Freemo]

This is certainly concerning to hear and I do hope you take this up with CrossCountry for investigation.

I wasn't going to bother as WMT paid for my journey anyway due to a missed connection, but will do if it's an egregious error on safety grounds.

As a fairly regular XC passenger it's pretty hard to tell what standard practice should look like. For example, on another double Voyager leaving Glasgow the coach numbers had to be reversed 10 minutes before departure so everyone with a reservation was moved to the other unit, only to be told that at Edinburgh it was now going to revert to the original order and could everyone please go back to where they were!

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

I wasn't going to bother as WMT paid for my journey anyway due to a missed connection, but will do if it's an egregious error on safety grounds.

As a fairly regular XC passenger it's pretty hard to tell what standard practice should look like. For example, on another double Voyager leaving Glasgow the coach numbers had to be reversed 10 minutes before departure so everyone with a reservation was moved to the other unit, only to be told that at Edinburgh it was now going to revert to the original order and could everyone please go back to where they were!

Are you joking??? This is one problem the GWR IET's had or have. What's the point of having a reservation for a whole journey from Glasgow to beyond Edinburgh when the carriages changed?

 

[Freemo]

Are you joking??? This is one problem the GWR IET's had or have. What's the point of having a reservation for a whole journey from Glasgow to beyond Edinburgh when the carriages changed?

This happened in 2015 and was apparently due to some sort of system error, although they had already had 14 years to iron out the creases by then.

 

[voyagerdude220]

I can't comment on dispatch/other aspects but Meridians and Voyagers have stowage for crew belongings in the vestibules, the wall panels that open up.

Thanks for your help.

 

[Falcon1200]

Coach A on a double Voyager clearly had about six passengers in it and the door button, although illuminated, was not operable. After three attempts at knocking on the door over about two minutes we were allowed in by what I took to be an off-duty train manager after the following conversation:

"You can't come in."
"Why not?"
"This is First Class"
"I have a First Class ticket!"
"Oh."

Something I learned very soon after becoming entitled to First Class travel is that a person's appearance or clothing is in no way any indication of what ticket they hold, and assessing and discriminating against anyone in such a manner is disgraceful. It only happened to me once (I was challenged by a member of staff as I entered First Class), and yes, that was on an XC service too. I was too surprised and shocked to do anything more than show my First Class pass. I have never however encountered the door into First Class being deliberately disabled. I would certainly also recommend making a complaint to Cross Country.

 

[Goldfish62]

Coach A on a double Voyager clearly had about six passengers in it and the door button, although illuminated, was not operable. After three attempts at knocking on the door over about two minutes we were allowed in by what I took to be an off-duty train manager after the following conversation:

"You can't come in."
"Why not?"
"This is First Class"
"I have a First Class ticket!"
"Oh."

Prior to being allowed in we were being kettled in the claustrophobic vestibule space by the toilet as passengers joined behind, which would feel very unsafe if it weren't par for the course on single CrossCountry 220s.

Presumably overcrowding resulted in them deciding to keep Standard passengers out of First at the expense of allowing in, you know, First Class passengers.

Edit: not a short platform issue either as the formation had A at the centre.

Absolute disgrace. How much lower are Cross Country going to sink?

 

[TheBigD]

5 hour gap in westbound services today on the Stansted Birmingham route.
Nothing between 1127 and 1627 from Stansted to Birmingham this afternoon.
1227 ran ECS Cambridge to Leicester, 1327 and 1427 are planned cancellations and the 1527 was cancelled as well.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Something I learned very soon after becoming entitled to First Class travel is that a person's appearance or clothing is in no way any indication of what ticket they hold, and assessing and discriminating against anyone in such a manner is disgraceful.

I remember a long time ago (around 15 years ago) travelling First Class on a Cross Country Voyager South from Edinburgh. We arrived early into Newcastle, so I quickly jumped off to take a couple of photos and upon trying to reboard, the First Class host who was joining at Newcastle was trying to prevent me access to First Class, despite the Train Manager saying to her he knew I had a valid First Class ticket which I had left in my coat pocket by my seat.

 

[Tester]

I remember a long time ago (around 15 years ago) travelling First Class on a Cross Country Voyager South from Edinburgh. We arrived early into Newcastle, so I quickly jumped off to take a couple of photos and upon trying to reboard, the First Class host who was joining at Newcastle was trying to prevent me access to First Class, despite the Train Manager saying to her he knew I had a valid First Class ticket which I had left in my coat pocket by my seat.

As someone ordinary who is fortunate to be able to travel first class extensively (and enjoy the full offer) I am used to being assessed as being in the wrong part of the train.

However it's important to be clear that this isn't the norm, which is to be dealt with politely and appropriately regardless of attire. As with many things, it's the few unpleasant incidents that stick in one's mind, rather than the many pleasant ones.

"I know I don't look it, but I really do have a first class ticket," is very disarming!

 

[Falcon1200]

However it's important to be clear that this isn't the norm, which is to be dealt with politely and appropriately regardless of attire.

I agree it should be dealt with politely, but staff should not be questioning people attempting to enter First Class based on some 19th century notion of what a First Class passenger should look like ! In my experience tickets are checked soon after boarding by the Train Manager or catering staff anyway.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Some Manchesters apparently aren't running this Saturday.

 

[DannyMich2018]

Buses replace trains between Leicester and Peterborough today due to shortage of train crew. One is non stop, other calls at Melton Mowbray, Oakham and Stamford. Both hourly.

 

[JonathanH]

Buses replace trains between Leicester and Peterborough today due to shortage of train crew. One is non stop, other calls at Melton Mowbray, Oakham and Stamford. Both hourly.

Then no XC service between Peterborough and Ely and buses direct from Ely to Stansted Airport omitting Cambridge.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Some Manchesters apparently aren't running this Saturday.

No, which really hasn't gone down well with Man City vs Wolves at the Etihad, general Christmas shoppers/market visitors in the city centre and an event at the AO Arena today.

Further not helped by several Avanti services cancelled and the majority of which were running only being 9-carriage Pendolinos.

 

[DanNCL]

Two HSTs in service today:

43357+XC02+43301
1V48 08:11 Leeds - Plymouth
1S55 14:27 Plymouth - Edinburgh

43239+XC04+43285
1V56 09:08 Edinburgh - Plymouth
1E75 18:27 Plymouth - Leeds