Daylight fare evasion

[LowLevel]

Numerous times I have been on a train , a guard has discovered someone has no ticket or the wrong ticket and nothing has been done.

Examples that stand out in my mind include a 20 ish year old men who when asked simply said " I ain`t got one, what are you going to do about it" and the guard just walked on and continued checking other people`s tickets ( South Eastern) ; or on the other extreme, an attractive young lady who was on a peak hour train with an off peak ticket despite numerous announcements that it was a peak time train on the platform and the train. ( GWR) " Oh, I didn`t realise" and she was simply let off and not charged an excess fare. Having spent £30 more than her buying a peak ticket just to get that train instead of one that was £30 cheaper 20 minutes later ( I had to arrive at a specific time ) and being an unattractive old bloke, I cheekily asked the guard " would you have let me off if I had not had a peak ticket? " He didn`t reply.

How do you know nothing was done? I don't engage in slanging matches with belligerents who won't cooperate but I do report them to the BTP, who sometimes turn up unexpectedly.

 

[skyhigh]

How do you know nothing was done? I don't engage in slanging matches with belligerents who won't cooperate but I do report them to the BTP, who sometimes turn up unexpectedly.

Same here. If someone has no railcard/short fare etc I'll ask them to pay, if not there's no point getting into a fight - particularly if it's an e-ticket. I'll just record the ticket details, tell them I'll report it and they'll get a letter asking for payment. Depending on the situation I might text BTP and they have turned up previously.

If someone clearly isn't going to pay, I'm not going to put myself at risk over a ticket by trying to kick them off the train or force payment.

 

[Taunton]

It's disappointing to say the least that nothing is done about this, but meanwhile TOCs pursue genuine passengers to the courts for lesser issues that one reads about, like having a valid railcard but not bringing it with you, in the Disputes section on these boards. Talk about going for the "low hanging fruit".

 

[skyhigh]

It's disappointing to say the least that nothing is done about this, but meanwhile TOCs pursue genuine passengers to the courts for lesser issues that one reads about, like having a valid railcard but not bringing it with you, in the Disputes section on these boards. Talk about going for the "low hanging fruit".

Again, how do you know nothing is being done? The staff could be reporting it so that they can build up a case for BTP action or a number of other things. Just because someone on the platform/train thinks 'oh nothing happened' doesn't mean nothing actually did!

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Guess this goes on all the time. Got off a 707 Windsor service at Staines this afternoon and while walking along the platform noticed a group of 3 or 4 youths climbing over a high fence to get outside. Obvious why they were doing it and the train guard was standing on the platform right in front of them - who didn't seem to notice... Daylight robbery.

I have recently noticed alot of much younger teens/pre-teens doing it at my local station too, something really does need to be done about it.

 

[bb21]

It's disappointing to say the least that nothing is done about this, but meanwhile TOCs pursue genuine passengers to the courts for lesser issues that one reads about, like having a valid railcard but not bringing it with you, in the Disputes section on these boards. Talk about going for the "low hanging fruit".

I am not willing to risk my own safety for the sake of a few quid, nor do I expect any of my colleagues to do that. If you are unhappy about it, take it up with law enforcement and your MP. The local plod would be very unimpressed if I ended up in hospital because I aggravated a situation by hounding some scumbag for a fare, nor will my employer if I chased after some fare evaders over the fence and left a train full of passengers unattended.

It is indeed disappointing that those scumbags are allowed to effectively get away with it, but as someone else already explained, revenue protection costs money, whether in manpower or hardware investment (eg. CCTV). We don't live in a utopia where everyone behaves like a little angel all the time, so there will always be an element of assessing whether the benefits brought about (financial and societal) by additional measures are worth the investment. The problem goes far deeper than anything operators can resolve alone.

If you think you are being treated unfairly because you are a law-abiding citizen, then feel free to behave like one of them scrotes, and you may get away with it too.

 

[Grecian 1998]

Is it unfair that people appear to be able to get away with blatant fare evasion? Of course it is.

Does that mean that rail staff should put their safety at risk / cause significant delays to the network in order to remedy the perceived unfairness? I'm going to say no.

Does that mean that fare evaders are necessarily getting away with it? No, as has been said up-thread staff may be reporting it to BTP.

Ultimately the belief many people have that fare evasion is harmless / a victimless crime is a societal issue. A single member of rail staff cannot magically solve the problem on their own.

 

[Taunton]

I am not willing to risk my own safety for the sake of a few quid, nor do I expect any of my colleagues to do that. If you are unhappy about it, take it up with law enforcement and your MP. The local plod would be very unimpressed if I ended up in hospital because I aggravated a situation by hounding some scumbag for a fare, nor will my employer if I chased after some fare evaders over the fence and left a train full of passengers unattended.

It is indeed disappointing that those scumbags are allowed to effectively get away with it, but as someone else already explained, revenue protection costs money, whether in manpower or hardware investment (eg. CCTV). We don't live in a utopia where everyone behaves like a little angel all the time, so there will always be an element of assessing whether the benefits brought about (financial and societal) by additional measures are worth the investment. The problem goes far deeper than anything operators can resolve alone.

If you think you are being treated unfairly because you are a law-abiding citizen, then feel free to behave like one of them scrotes, and you may get away with it too.

I am afraid the drift of my comment has been completely lost ...

 

[Kite159]

When the big network rail stations, Birmingham New St being especially known for it, don't even shut there gates half the time you've got little hope of any TOC trying to deal with people climbing walls.

The issue at New Street is the number of ticket gateline locations, all needing staffing (because the chancers will simply jump over an unmonitored gateline).

Says something when in 2019 I heard someone saying "don't get off at Snow Hill, you have to pay there, get off at Moor Street as they will be open" (when the barriers at Snow Hill started to be staffed from first to last, although how many people jump the gates near the canal).

(Unmonitored as in the ones which a help point in which someone can speak with a member of staff at the main gates)

 

[name_required]

Several people have mentioned reporting incidents to BTP but I doubt many railway staff or passengers would want BTP to make responding to fare evasion a higher priority. There are only about 3,000 BTP officers nationwide, meaning (very roughly) about 500–600 on duty at any one time. Their published priorities are preventing terrorist attacks, tackling serious violence (particularly against staff), reducing crimes that cause disruption to train services and safeguarding vulnerable people (e.g. missing children) on the rail network. Very few people would want them to focus less on those priorities in order to focus more on fare evasion.

As a non-violent crime with a corporate victim, fare evasion is always going to be a low priority for BTP and the primary responsibility for responding to it is going to continue to fall on train operating companies. In a way that makes sense, because TOCs are the organisations that are in the best position to decide how much to invest to protect their revenue, both in infrastructure such as higher fences and in revenue protection staff. If you work on the railway and you see people fare evading, the best people to tell are the TOC's revenue protection managers so they can take sustainable action.

 

[extendedpaul]

I experienced what was apparently the reverse of this last Saturday evening at Wakefield Westgate. There were three or four ticketless and allegedly abusive passengers on a Cross Country service to Bristol who refused to leave the train. The train manager was equally adamant that his train was not leaving with them still on board. The police were called but took over 30 minutes to arrive - seven of them - and the passengers did then get off, albeit arguing that they wanted to complain about the train manager.

Wakefield Westgate has only one platform in each direction and consequently my LNER London train was stuck outside the station and departed 40 minutes late,it had to proceed at caution through a signalling fault soon afterwards and then halted by a points problem after Doncaster somewhere near Retford. A few minutes later a passenger decided to operate the alarm which released the door lock and he jumped off the train and ran across the track into fields! Power had to be switched off to both tracks for about 20 minutes and we ended reaching Kings Cross about 100 minutes late. I should also mention that our train manager - Jane - was incredibly helpful, informative and professional throughout.

Of course the subsequent problems may still have happened if we had departed Wakefield on time but in any event the Delay Replay claims and payouts will be astronomical.

 

[Taunton]

Several people have mentioned reporting incidents to BTP but I doubt many railway staff or passengers would want BTP to make responding to fare evasion a higher priority. There are only about 3,000 BTP officers nationwide, meaning (very roughly) about 500–600 on duty at any one time. Their published priorities are preventing terrorist attacks, tackling serious violence (particularly against staff), reducing crimes that cause disruption to train services and safeguarding vulnerable people (e.g. missing children) on the rail network. Very few people would want them to focus less on those priorities in order to focus more on fare evasion.

That's an interesting shift in priorities from a generation ago. Although those items might well come to their attention, the (one) Railway Policeman (as they were termed then) on beat at Taunton had, I recall, as principal areas : Prevention of theft of goods in transit; Keeping order where crowding experienced; patrolling the premises against intruders/unsavoury characters/tramps; attending any incident; handling drunks; assisting staff where "authority" needed; calling the town police to take over many of these issues.

 

[skyhigh]

Several people have mentioned reporting incidents to BTP but I doubt many railway staff or passengers would want BTP to make responding to fare evasion a higher priority. There are only about 3,000 BTP officers nationwide, meaning (very roughly) about 500–600 on duty at any one time. Their published priorities are preventing terrorist attacks, tackling serious violence (particularly against staff), reducing crimes that cause disruption to train services and safeguarding vulnerable people (e.g. missing children) on the rail network. Very few people would want them to focus less on those priorities in order to focus more on fare evasion.

As a non-violent crime with a corporate victim, fare evasion is always going to be a low priority for BTP and the primary responsibility for responding to it is going to continue to fall on train operating companies. In a way that makes sense, because TOCs are the organisations that are in the best position to decide how much to invest to protect their revenue, both in infrastructure such as higher fences and in revenue protection staff. If you work on the railway and you see people fare evading, the best people to tell are the TOC's revenue protection managers so they can take sustainable action.

Obviously the priority is not going to be fare evasion, but if you're coming into a station with a BTP presence they are occasionally able to meet the train in if they haven't got any other pressing matters to attend to. From experience, quite a proportion of 'hard core fare evaders' are found to be wanted for something else...

In addition, our TOC specifically asks us to report non-emergency issues via TOC processes as well as 61016 as reports generate Intel which can then be used as a justification for planning joint operations and events between travel safe teams/revenue/BTP.

There's no harm in reporting fare evasion in an appropriate manner to them, and they can decide if they can attend.

 

[Neptune]

Several years ago we had a passenger who was causing problems on a busy evening peak train. His pass took him to the end of the Metro zone and he always went to the next stop (where he lived). Generally this service was packed up to the boundary station where it emptied out and those of us who worked the train did a full ticket check after this station. He got shirty every time as he had to pay the excess on top of his metrocard (he was usually sat in the front coach of 3). On one occasion I managed to get to the front before the boundary and when I got to him I asked if he needed the excess to his usual stop. He said no and at the boundary station he didn’t get off. I walked down the outside of the train and so as to not lose face he got off the train without me saying anything but he looked around and gave me a scowl.

I often wondered why he didn’t board at that station on a morning but he caught the first train in from the boundary stop (must have got a lift there).

Over time he became more and more abusive to staff members about this saying he was being victimised (although never once complained) and eventually after enough reports I was joined on this service by an RPI. He kept out of sight as I approached this passenger and he went into his usual tirade of abuse going on about victimisation and also said (for the first time to me in any case) that he wasn’t going to pay the extra. That was enough for the RPI who intervened, withdrew his pass (he’d just renewed his annual that week) and took his details. His head immediately went down and he said that he was going to lose his job as a solicitors clerk.

In court he was fined, he’d lost his job and he’d also had to pay the costs to his former company of the annual pass.

What it goes to show is with enough intelligence and sticking to your guns people do get caught and dealt with (he never thought it would go this far as it had been going on for a long time). Safe to say I’ve never seen him since.

 

[LowLevel]

A little while ago we had a gentleman who was threatening conductors because he didn't want to pay. One day he was picked up and thrown out of the train by another passenger but this didn't deter him and he was back the next day. He got booted out of the train at an unmanned halt, punched clean through a saloon window and threatened the crossing keeper. The police found him wandering around some nearby country lanes bleeding from his broken hand.

Wanted for immigration offences, slung into a detention centre and deported, all over a train ticket. How we laughed.

 

[bb21]

I am afraid the drift of my comment has been completely lost ...

Have I? You were complaining that operators were going for "low hanging fruit" while pursuing genuine irregularity yet at the same time nothing was done about this. I, and several others, tried to explain why it may seem nothing is done about this (while in the background more happens), or indeed why sometimes it makes little sense to pursue certain individuals.

If you weren't trying to make the point it didn't seem fair to you then what other point have I missed?

 

[RHolmes]

I have recently noticed alot of much younger teens/pre-teens doing it at my local station too, something really does need to be done about it.

Fare paying or otherwise you can’t leave young kids at a station on their own, you’re instructed to take them regardless

 

[6Gman]

At my local station a couple of years ago some scrote attempted to scale the fence to get out. He snapped his ankle when it got caught and spent some time hooked into the fence behind the cycle hub until someone heard his screams and called BTP and an ambulance.

Karma.

How do you know nothing was done? I don't engage in slanging matches with belligerents who won't cooperate but I do report them to the BTP, who sometimes turn up unexpectedly.

We were on a Euston-N Wales train one evening. Two young lads got on at Milton Keynes. Train Manager, a slight female, came round checking tickets. From a nearby seat I gathered they had 2 discounted tickets, but only 1 Railcard. She gave them 3 options. Pay for an Open Single (lot of money), provide a name and address for an Unpaid Fare Notice, or she would involve the Police.

After a lot of to-ing and fro-ing and arguing they finally gave a name and address in the Wrexham area.

"Thank you lads, now why have you wasted my time; you could have done that ten minutes ago."

I overheard the address they gave - my i-phone indicated it was fake. The two lads giggled at having got away with it.

I think the TM also had an i-phone. When we got to Crewe the doors were slow to open; she had walked down to our coach, to chat to the three BTP officers waiting.

I'm guessing the questioning may have ended just after the last Chester train left . . .

 

[rg177]

A little while ago we had a gentleman who was threatening conductors because he didn't want to pay. One day he was picked up and thrown out of the train by another passenger but this didn't deter him and he was back the next day. He got booted out of the train at an unmanned halt, punched clean through a saloon window and threatened the crossing keeper. The police found him wandering around some nearby country lanes bleeding from his broken hand.

Wanted for immigration offences, slung into a detention centre and deported, all over a train ticket. How we laughed.

This reminds of me of someone who turned up at our gateline with no ticket, started to give false details to a colleague then decided to try and run back onto another train.

He was unlucky that the driver was one of the few who simply got out of the cab and told him that he wasn't moving the train with him on it, so the bloke made the very clever choice of spitting on my colleague instead.

He ended up being arrested and sectioned, apparently facing deportation for some sort of offence in Romania..!

 

[3141]

How do you know nothing was done? I don't engage in slanging matches with belligerents who won't cooperate but I do report them to the BTP, who sometimes turn up unexpectedly.

As far as other passengers who have observed such a situation are concerned, nothing was done. What they have seen is that someone had the wrong ticket, or no ticket, and they've got away with it. Even if the matter has been reported, the fare evader will probably have got away with it. Some of those who've seen him/her getting away with it may be tempted to try the same thing themselves. Others may feel resentful that they have paid, but someone else has been able to travel despite not paying (see post #30).

I fully understand that guards cannot physically detain an offender, and that there are several reasons why they may not pursue the issue in the carriage where it happens at the specific time. It must be frustrating for the guard to know that there is not much that can be done, and that it's only "sometimes" that the BTP may "turn up unexpectedly" if the guard reports the case.

I know from observation that on occasion the evader does get caught, and I've discussed with a guard the difficulty he faced in trying to deal with a blatant refusal to pay. Of course staff who do report these problems will want to challenge the suggestion that nothing is done, but that's how it will appear to other passengers who are there at the time, and there will certainly be some cases where "nothing is done" will be the truth.

 

[LowLevel]

As far as other passengers who have observed such a situation are concerned, nothing was done. What they have seen is that someone had the wrong ticket, or no ticket, and they've got away with it. Even if the matter has been reported, the fare evader will probably have got away with it. Some of those who've seen him/her getting away with it may be tempted to try the same thing themselves. Others may feel resentful that they have paid, but someone else has been able to travel despite not paying (see post #30).

I fully understand that guards cannot physically detain an offender, and that there are several reasons why they may not pursue the issue in the carriage where it happens at the specific time. It must be frustrating for the guard to know that there is not much that can be done, and that it's only "sometimes" that the BTP may "turn up unexpectedly" if the guard reports the case.

I know from observation that on occasion the evader does get caught, and I've discussed with a guard the difficulty he faced in trying to deal with a blatant refusal to pay. Of course staff who do report these problems will want to challenge the suggestion that nothing is done, but that's how it will appear to other passengers who are there at the time, and there will certainly be some cases where "nothing is done" will be the truth.

Sadly, that's life. In the UK a level of importance has been attached to the right of the individual to be treated in a certain manner, even if they're in the wrong. I knew a now retired conductor who was a 30 year military veteran. If faced with outright refusal to cooperate he would drag the perpetrator off the train and if they resisted he would give them a good hiding in the process. Another was a member of a travelling football firm and was well known for his rough treatment of fare evaders. Another was known as Hatchet because he once went for a group of football fans with the fire axe. It was routine to stop the train out of course at disused stations and throw people out of the door.

You can't have it all ways - you either insist on people being treated in the correct manner by enforcement officials or you accept unofficial justice. The latter is no longer tolerated in the UK so sadly scrotes who declare "what're you going to do about it" will usually appear to get away with it. In my experience however rarely is that luck unlimited.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Someone climbing a wall/fence to avoid paying a fare isn't going to be stopped by a barrier line, open or closed

A lot of the time however, planning permissions can scupper attempts to effectively barrier off a station. The low glass partition at Newcastle is one example of this, you only need to see how many people scoot round the back of Boots on a Friday or Saturday night to realise how ineffective the barriers are. For those that do bother Manors seems to become very popular on a night time

Surely evidence can be collected over time by cctv? Then a swoop by BTP could result in persons being charged with repeated offences.

Nah, far too much like common sense!

It's disappointing to say the least that nothing is done about this, but meanwhile TOCs pursue genuine passengers to the courts for lesser issues that one reads about, like having a valid railcard but not bringing it with you, in the Disputes section on these boards. Talk about going for the "low hanging fruit".

As I have often said, until such time revenue protection is taken seriously by the industry as a whole and to a common standard then the low hanging fruit as you put it will always be the easy option. It starts with barriers that cannot be defeated where staff can interrogate ticket data and have enforcement powers, cross TOC fully PACE trained revenue staff that can work any train and therefore share intel, TfL has demonstrated it can be done and works. Yes it costs money, but if it's spent it will be earned, safety goes up, crime goes down.

There are too many holes in the system caused by fragmentation. for example you can travel on a TPE service from Durham to Newcastle, then once you get there and see the barriers in operation you can buy a LNER Advance from Durham to Newcastle for £2 from the ticket machines. The train hasn't yet left Durham yet it will operate the barrier at Newcastle. How is that even possible?...

Over time he became more and more abusive to staff members about this saying he was being victimised (although never once complained) and eventually after enough reports I was joined on this service by an RPI. He kept out of sight as I approached this passenger and he went into his usual tirade of abuse going on about victimisation and also said (for the first time to me in any case) that he wasn’t going to pay the extra. That was enough for the RPI who intervened, withdrew his pass (he’d just renewed his annual that week) and took his details. His head immediately went down and he said that he was going to lose his job as a solicitors clerk.

In court he was fined, he’d lost his job and he’d also had to pay the costs to his former company of the annual pass.

You would think given his employment in the legal profession he would know better than to behave in this manner. He knew the consequences of his actions yet still carried on to the cost of his career. Frankly I am amazed fare dodgers make it as obvious by their actions and behaviour what the are doing as it merely draws attention to them. If they sat down, shut up, keep themselves to themselves and cough up without arguement when caught they would probably get away with it more often, however as already stated the belligerent ones often have criminal backgrounds and behave like they want to be caught!

 

[jon0844]

A really good electric fence might prevent repeats (one way or another)

Anti climb paint. Let people ruin their clothes and maybe reconsider next time.

 

[Trackman]

This reminds of me of someone who turned up at our gateline with no ticket, started to give false details to a colleague then decided to try and run back onto another train.

I've seen this happen in morning rush hour when time is of the essence.
'This train will stop here until the BTP have arrived because of a non-fare paying passenger' or something like that...
It was all over in 1 minute as he gave up, it didnt help matters as he was swearing like a docker and the pax knew he was the one and was risking of being lynched.

 

[clagmonster]

Same here. If someone has no railcard/short fare etc I'll ask them to pay, if not there's no point getting into a fight - particularly if it's an e-ticket. I'll just record the ticket details, tell them I'll report it and they'll get a letter asking for payment. Depending on the situation I might text BTP and they have turned up previously.

If someone clearly isn't going to pay, I'm not going to put myself at risk over a ticket by trying to kick them off the train or force payment.

With e-tickets, when you scan them is there a way to automatically extract the details to attach to a TIR? Presumably a very useful source of intelligence if revenue can then follow said passengers account and and easily target them.

 

[skyhigh]

With e-tickets, when you scan them is there a way to automatically extract the details to attach to a TIR? Presumably a very useful source of intelligence if revenue can then follow said passengers account and and easily target them.

The ticket number is recorded when you scan and from that all details of prior scans, purchase etc can be found. It can be linked to the account holder and the TOC are fully able to contact the passenger even if they refuse to provide details.

 

[WesternBiker]

Surely evidence can be collected over time by cctv? Then a swoop by BTP could result in persons being charged with repeated offences.

I was told by the staff at the gate line (having witnessed and reported someone push through the barrier without paying) that this is done at Wimbledon.

On several occasions, I’ve experienced the unpleasant tactic of fare invaders of waiting at the barrier line until somebody comes along with a ticket, and then squeezing in behind them while the barrier is open. It’s a very unpleasant thing to happen. I now deliberately look behind me just before going to the barrier to deter anyone from doing that to me.

SWR have teams of revenue protection staff at the top of the stairs from time to time, to “blitz” fare evaders.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

The ticket number is recorded when you scan and from that all details of prior scans, purchase etc can be found. It can be linked to the account holder and the TOC are fully able to contact the passenger even if they refuse to provide details.

That is assuming the account holder has put their details in. Many accounts simply don't have this information which is why the name shows on some tickets and not others. Often the ticket user is not the actual account holder.

 

[W-on-Sea]

Used to see this fairly frequently at several stations on the c2c lines. Only way to deal with really it is a big revenue block, ideally with BTP on hand. Or put up barbed wire fences to stop it happening, although that hardly creates a pleasant station environment.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Only way to deal with really it is a big revenue block, ideally with BTP on hand. Or put up barbed wire fences to stop it happening, although that hardly creates a pleasant station environment.

Might that just result in the Neds making their way alongside the tracks in order to avoid the BTP and to try to find an alternative way out?