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Daylight fare evasion

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falcon

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There are too many holes in the system caused by fragmentation. for example you can travel on a TPE service from Durham to Newcastle, then once you get there and see the barriers in operation you can buy a LNER Advance from Durham to Newcastle for £2 from the ticket machines. The train hasn't yet left Durham yet it will operate the barrier at Newcastle.
How can the person buy a LNER Durham to Newcatle advanced ticket from the ticket machine at Newcastle?
Are the ticket machines on the platform side of the barriers!
 
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gimmea50anyday

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Yes, there is a ticket machine beside the barriers. Sales of singles from Manors and Heworth seem to go up in popularity when the barriers are on. Or they use the Trainline app and buy them that way
 

Djminisite06

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On several occasions, I’ve experienced the unpleasant tactic of fare invaders of waiting at the barrier line until somebody comes along with a ticket, and then squeezing in behind them while the barrier is open. It’s a very unpleasant thing to happen. I now deliberately look behind me just before going to the barrier to deter anyone from doing that to me.
Someone tried that with me once, I knew they were doing it and stopped purposely stopped mid barrier, cue the person shouting at me to move and attracting the attention of the gateline staff - at which point I continued, leaving them all having a discussion.

Honestly talking to staff locally - infuriates them too, but unless the staff are equipped with tasers they won't intervene
 

falcon

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Yes, there is a ticket machine beside the barriers. Sales of singles from Manors and Heworth seem to go up in popularity when the barriers are on. Or they use the Trainline app and buy them that way
Is the machine on the platform side of the barrier so a person can get off a train and just buy a ticket and then pass through the barrier?
 

Furryanimal

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If you want to avoid daylight fare evasion site revenue inspectors at the entrance to the ticket office!
While I was picking up tickets from the machine at Cwmbran station yesterday,everyone who arrived was asked to show their ticket.....conveniently ignoring the fact they had to enter the office to buy a ticket!
Still ,I suppose it ensured anyone who may have planned not to buy a ticket did so!
 

Dai Corner

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I witnessed two attempts to evade fares last week in the upper Rhymney Valley.

An older lady proffered a debit card, which the guard's machine declined. I suspect she knew it would be. She then offered her bus pass which of course isn't valid on the trains (not on that line anyway). The guard persisted and the passenger eventually found her purse and paid her fare which would have been about £2 with the discount available to concessionary pass holders.

A stop or two later she was joined by a man, possibly her son. He tried the same routine with the debit card and said he had no money. The guard said he'd have to leave the train at the next station if he couldn't pay and after she'd checked a few more tickets he came across a tenner in his pocket.
 

sd0733

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The guard said he'd have to leave the train at the next station if he couldn't pay and after she'd checked a few more tickets he came across a tenner in his pocket.
Its miraculous how many find money they didnt know they had in socks, gloves, pockets or bags when the choice is being kicked off or met by police. They see it as a bit of a game.
 

cuccir

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Surely evidence can be collected over time by cctv? Then a swoop by BTP could result in persons being charged with repeated offences.
How would this work exactly? CCTV images are not great evidence - "It wasn't me guv" - and people travelling like this are less likely to be commuters so when they travel is not predictable. You'd need to be able to identify the same person across multiple CCTV images AND anticipate when they were next to be at a station.

Such stings do happen AFAIK, but much more with commuters who are short-ticketing, 'doughnutting', using fake tickets, to establish repeated use.
 

Mogz

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I once witnessed a brazen ticket refuser who also refused to get off the train.

The guard put an announcement over the tannoy that the train wouldn’t be moving until the fare dodger had left and the BTP were on their way.

Eventually other passengers ganged up on said fare dodger, who promptly left the train.

As the train moved off, there was a round of applause.
 

3rd rail land

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I once witnessed a brazen ticket refuser who also refused to get off the train.

The guard put an announcement over the tannoy that the train wouldn’t be moving until the fare dodger had left and the BTP were on their way.

Eventually other passengers ganged up on said fare dodger, who promptly left the train.

As the train moved off, there was a round of applause.
It's great that the guard didn't give in to the fare dodger/refuser as they shouldn't be allowed to get away with it. That said surely the guard would have had to explain to his superiors why he caused the train to be delayed/late running?

I have witnessed essentially the same situation on a bus in London. The driver knew the youth in question had gotten on without paying and refused to move until the person paid or alighted. Eventually the youth alighted after trying to use a card which was declined.
It held me up but I'm glad the youth was unable to get aware with fare evasion.
 

Vespa

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In New York a while ago I recall tall turnstiles on the Metro subway, it was impossible to force it or jump over, you had to have a valid pass to get through, there's a regular thing of police swamping random stations unannounced with RPIs doing regular checks and any warrants outstanding especially if a non payer draws attention to themselves by kicking off, they would be surrounded by cops and RPIs.

Pretty effective.
 

Aictos

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In New York a while ago I recall tall turnstiles on the Metro subway, it was impossible to force it or jump over, you had to have a valid pass to get through, there's a regular thing of police swamping random stations unannounced with RPIs doing regular checks and any warrants outstanding especially if a non payer draws attention to themselves by kicking off, they would be surrounded by cops and RPIs.

Pretty effective.
That would never happen over here, the railway is far too soft when it comes to deliberate fare evasion eg on TfL services eg the Underground you can get a PF of £80 I think but do the same on any TOC in the area and it's just £20.

Not much of a deterrent on the TOCs there hence why so many just chance it.

Note however I said deliberate fare evasion so not those who couldn't purchase the ticket they needed though no fault of their own but those who have no intention at all at paying a fare because in their eyes, it's not much and the TOC won't miss the fare forgetting that if not for fare evasion, the railway would be able to invest much more into infrastructure like more electrification, better station facilities etc...
 

zero

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I have witnessed essentially the same situation on a bus in London. The driver knew the youth in question had gotten on without paying and refused to move until the person paid or alighted. Eventually the youth alighted after trying to use a card which was declined.
It held me up but I'm glad the youth was unable to get aware with fare evasion.

Seen that too. The fare evader immediately got on the next bus and the driver of that one didn't challenge them.
 

contrex

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... he went into his usual tirade of abuse going on about victimisation and also said ... that he wasn’t going to pay the extra ... he said that he was going to lose his job as a solicitors clerk ... In court he was fined, he’d lost his job and he’d also had to pay the costs to his former company of the annual pass.
Stupidity and dishonesty are a particularly undesirable combination in any job, and speaking as someone who works in a legal organisation, I would say his employers (and the wider society) dodged a bullet when he was fired.
 

Vespa

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Stupidity and dishonesty are a particularly undesirable combination in any job, and speaking as someone who works in a legal organisation, I would say his employers (and the wider society) dodged a bullet when he was fired.
You would be suprised at many people in a job that requires integrity go round fare didging just to save a few quid a week.

Penny wise and pound foolish comes to mind.
 

Killingworth

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I made 4 journeys on Northern's Hope Valley services last Saturday. All were 3 car 195s which must assist with revenue protection. Pre-Covid all might have been a single Pacer when we'd strugle to get aboard and tickets were never checked. Sometimes we now get a 4 car train, 2x150.

This line has been a fare dodgers paradise. Many free riders never expected to have to pay, certainly not on over full Pacers or in the front half of a 4 car 150 combination without walk through connection. A few get promise to pay tickets from the ticket machines as an insurance, but go as near as possible to the front of the train to avoid a conductor. Those I see doing this must have contactless cards. The only normally controlled barriers are at Piccadilly.

First well filled train a 5 minute hop into Sheffield. Conscientious conductor worked to the front of the train. Two teenagers didn't seem to expect to be asked to pay, but did. As we arrived in Sheffield a young man joined them very pleased with himself that he'd not paid. They left being instructed on how to get away with it next time.

Later in the day I joined an eastbound train from Marple, standees at that point, but plenty of seats if bags had gone on racks. Piccadilly and all previous stations have ticket machines and are manned on Saturday mornings. The conductor worked the train well and was collecting quite a few fares. A couple of Manchester City supporters were sprawled either side of the train, neither with tickets despite having got on at Piccadilly. The first gave in fairly easily after disputing the full price fare. The second put up every possible diversionary tactic. The conductor kept coming back until Hathersage. By then a QR code had been produced and was accepted, although I suspect it wasn't read. Hassle over, but the subsequent conversation suggested they were both hoping not to have to pay.
 

Ianno87

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I was at Birmingham Street station the other day. As I was exiting the 'b' end footbridge a couple of youths literally just ran up and barged through the accessible gate. The gateline attendant didn't bat an eyelid (he was on his own so would have been unwise to confront them)
 

LowLevel

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I was at Birmingham Street station the other day. As I was exiting the 'b' end footbridge a couple of youths literally just ran up and barged through the accessible gate. The gateline attendant didn't bat an eyelid (he was on his own so would have been unwise to confront them)

Until someone comes up with an effective way to sort out feral people then sadly that will continue to happen :(
 

nanstallon

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It's disappointing to say the least that nothing is done about this, but meanwhile TOCs pursue genuine passengers to the courts for lesser issues that one reads about, like having a valid railcard but not bringing it with you, in the Disputes section on these boards. Talk about going for the "low hanging fruit".
That's Britain all over - the law is only enforced against the law abiding. The TOCs will go to the end of the earth piffly wiffling about someone being on the wrong train, so I lack sympathy with them. At the end of the day,it's only a few quid and you can't expect staff to risk injury. The scrotes know that the police and the courts are toothless to deal with them.
 

falcon

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That's Britain all over - the law is only enforced against the law abiding. The TOCs will go to the end of the earth piffly wiffling about someone being on the wrong train, so I lack sympathy with them. At the end of the day,it's only a few quid and you can't expect staff to risk injury. The scrotes know that the police and the courts are toothless to deal with them.
I agree.

Does anyone know how this problem is delt with in other Countries.

The UK's problem seems to be that it has just become the culture.
 

geoffk

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That sounds normal for France to me. Go to any Metro or RER or Transilien station in Paris or its suburbs and you will see huge amounts of people climbing under or over the barriers or forcing them open or going through with other people. There is a much larger problem with Fare Evasion in France than what we have over here in the UK.
Seen it in Australia too, jumping over the barriers at Flinders Street station in Melbourne.
 

Essexman

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Quite a few passengers in first class on my train from Oxford to London this evening who I think it very unlikely had first class tickets (eg. groups of youngsters). Hardly surprising as DOO so no checks.
 

ivorytoast28

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I agree.

Does anyone know how this problem is delt with in other Countries.

The UK's problem seems to be that it has just become the culture.
In most of Europe there are no ticket barriers at all and rarely ticket checks so I assume it is an issue there too. Though I did notice in Italy the posters talking about fines for no tickets were a lot higher than our £20 penalty fares
 

Towers

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I once witnessed a brazen ticket refuser who also refused to get off the train.

The guard put an announcement over the tannoy that the train wouldn’t be moving until the fare dodger had left and the BTP were on their way.

Eventually other passengers ganged up on said fare dodger, who promptly left the train.

As the train moved off, there was a round of applause.

Almost certain to result in a b*ll*cking for the guard these days, unless there were other factors at play - said dodger causing a safety issue, for example.

Further b*ll*cking if it was an unstaffed station, as that adds failure of Duty of Care to the existing issue of racking up expensive delay minutes!
 

al78

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I agree.

Does anyone know how this problem is delt with in other Countries.

The UK's problem seems to be that it has just become the culture.
It is a culture in the UK or is it just a minority that have (and always have had) an entitlement attitude to get something for nothing when they feel like it? People regularly violate traffic laws if they see a gain and the likelihood of consequences is near zero. Not addressing it only fuels it in the long term, if there are no consequences, or the consequences have a low probability of happening, why stop? Difficult to see a solution aside from public facing rail staff being trained to a high skill in hand to hand and/or weapon combat and are permitted to use it at their discretion.
 

43066

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It is a culture in the UK or is it just a minority that have (and always have had) an entitlement attitude to get something for nothing when they feel like it? People regularly violate traffic laws if they see a gain and the likelihood of consequences is near zero. Not addressing it only fuels it in the long term, if there are no consequences, or the consequences have a low probability of happening, why stop? Difficult to see a solution aside from public facing rail staff being trained to a high skill in hand to hand and/or weapon combat and are permitted to use it at their discretion.

It’s the same minority of people that has always had that attitude. They’ve just been emboldened by a cultural shift in the U.K. which now places primacy of the individual, “duty of care” etc. above enforcement of railway ticketing bylaws. Whether that’s right or not is a matter of opinion. What is certain is that the dishonest minority of the public are fully aware of how to use the modern softer attitude to their advantage!

Personally I think it’s crazy that people who have brazenly boarded a train without any intention of paying their fare, shouldn’t at least run the risk of being unceremoniously turfed off in the middle of nowhere, if they happen upon a particularly militant train manager.
 

gimmea50anyday

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But top rail industry attitude towards to revenue protection needs to change before we will get anywhere. Only today I witnessed a member of barrier staff allow someone through. He had the "scrote" look about him. When I asked her why she let him through she said without backup she had no choice. He said he had no money and left his ticket in the train. She was obviously frustrated at this and felt it was a waste of time having barriers because there was no revenue enforcement or BTP support. She told me local management believe it's bad customer service to charge someone again for a ticket when they claim they left the original ticket on the train so they should be allowed through, yet what she sees every day is people taking the 1P55 because no one enforces
 

Neo9320

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I think the general theme here is correct. Passengers that pay on a regular basis are much more likely to be penalised than chavs & chancers. Years back I got a ticket from high Wycombe to burton on trent and split the fare in to 3 as it worked out about £7 cheaper (result!) it was high Wycombe to Banbury, Banbury to new St. new St. to burton, lost the Banbury to new St. ticket somewhere on the journey and the guard would not accept that I had obviously purchased all tickets together and slapped me with a penalty fare!

if I wasn’t so gosh darn honest I’d travel without a ticket more often!
 

A Challenge

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I mean I know the determined will just barge barriers, but they could also do with making the barriers a bit more intelligent - I got through the barriers at Liverpool Lime Street yesterday with a Sheffield to Manchester Piccadilly ticket as I'd put the wrong one through and then going back put the Manchester Piccadilly to Sheffield through to see if that would work and that got accepted as well, which implies they accept any valid ticket (there may be a date check though I suppose). It was nice of the guards on both trains letting me travel early (advances) as I'd accidently turned up an hour early for my first train, though.
 

6Gman

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Personally I think it’s crazy that people who have brazenly boarded a train without any intention of paying their fare, shouldn’t at least run the risk of being unceremoniously turfed off in the middle of nowhere, if they happen upon a particularly militant train manager.
Well, on my last train journey the (female, and not especially militant) Conductor invited the guy trying to get to work on the previous day's ticket to pay a penalty fare or be turfed off at the next station and find another way to get to work. He chose the latter (Hartford is hardly the middle of nowhere but assuming his workplace was Runcorn, S Parkway or Liverpool it wouldn't have been straightforward to find an alternative way of getting there.)
 
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