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DB Derailment at Garmisch, 3 June

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Beebman

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Latest video report this morning from Bavarian news channel BR24:


If my understanding of German is correct this is the current situation:
  • 5 fatalities with 7 people still missing (but all the coaches have been thoroughly searched for any further victims)
  • There's certainty that there was no collision and the cause could be a 'technical defect'
  • The driver has been questioned by the Criminal Police but nothing has been released about what he said
  • Repair work on the track can't begin until a special crane has been obtained from the Ruhr area to lift the locomotive.
 
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dutchflyer

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As I am in Germany now and sitting in an only very little delayed ICE;
I saw the TV-news yesterday eve last and then there were reported 12 people still missing and presumed to lie under the toppled coaches. I guess this nr is now down to 7. Sadly it will thus likely only be possible to confirm when these coaches have been raised off.
In such cases german police nor any other source will ever say even the smallest word on possible causes untill these are more as 100% confirmed.
 

duesselmartin

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One does wonder of the state of the infrastructure though. Only days before DB CEO Lutz announced major investments to improve instrastructure. The delays you are experiencing are typical. Took me ten hours from Basel to Duisburg yesterday. Train cancellations, delays with no end. That was an EC / IC journey.
 

Gag Halfrunt

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According to a Ukrainian newspaper two of the dead were Ukrainian refugees.

2 Ukrainian women killed in railway accident in Germany.

At least 5 people were killed and dozens injured as a result of a train derailment near the town of Garmisch-Partenkirchen on June 3.

According to German newspaper Bild, two women were refugees from Ukraine who were staying with host families in the region. One woman reportedly had a child, who was also injured in the accident and is now in the hospital.
 
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From the aerial shots and those of the track itself, the damage has been done by the carriages toppling. Could be track buckling (given the relative heat in the middle of the day, but the track looks very modern and also has a noticeable degree of cant?), a broken rail, but perhaps this has arisen from an unfortunate control problem: the front of the train braking for the 1st station stop whilst the back is still being powered forward, if only for a bit, by the loco? Very sad whatever has happened, though.
 

ivorytoast28

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It is worrying how many incidents seem to still be occuring in Germany, I know they have more services than the UK but it seems to be one accident after another. Is there any speculation on what caused this? Seems like it can only be the train was running at to high a speed if there were no obstacles
 

najaB

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Seems like it can only be the train was running at to high a speed if there were no obstacles
Or there could have been a fault with the train (eg a wheel fractured), or a fault with the track (eg warping or buckling), or there could have been a very small obstacle, and even if the train was going too quickly that could be due to any number of factors.
 

AlexNL

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What is their crashworthiness like? Modern European units, particularly diesel ones (know you're referring to electric ones here), look very flimsy. Never been convinced they'd perform particularly well in an accident. Think a double deck Flirt had a collision a while back (a brand new WestBahn one?) and front coach was virtually destroyed?
Modern trains are designed to very high crashworthiness standards, and generally fair really well in vehicle-to-vehicle collisions. Modern UK trains conform to the same standards as they were put in place by the EU, and have been translated into national laws.

An example: compare the train-to-train collision at the entry to Neville Hill depot, a few years ago. A LNER Azuma rear ended an HST. The Azuma looked to be in awful shape but was repaired, the HST power car was written off.
 

Richard Scott

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Modern trains are designed to very high crashworthiness standards, and generally fair really well in vehicle-to-vehicle collisions. Modern UK trains conform to the same standards as they were put in place by the EU, and have been translated into national laws.

An example: compare the train-to-train collision at the entry to Neville Hill depot, a few years ago. A LNER Azuma rear ended an HST. The Azuma looked to be in awful shape but was repaired, the HST power car was written off.
I have no issues with UK (not sure the HST being a write off is a sensible comparison as 10 years ago likely it would gave been repaired) but having seen some European diesel units virtually demolished in a collision (sure something akin to a 642 or 643 collided with a loco a few years back with dire consequences) and also an almost brand new flirt I'm not convinced modern European units are actually particularly crash worthy.
 

43096

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An example: compare the train-to-train collision at the entry to Neville Hill depot, a few years ago. A LNER Azuma rear ended an HST. The Azuma looked to be in awful shape but was repaired, the HST power car was written off.
That's a bit of a silly comparison. The power car was repairable, the only reason it wasn't was because the fleet had little time left in service. The other way of looking at it, is that the HST set was back in service a week or two later with a replacement power car, the whole Azuma was out of service for over 12 months. Progress?
 

Davester50

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An example: compare the train-to-train collision at the entry to Neville Hill depot, a few years ago. A LNER Azuma rear ended an HST. The Azuma looked to be in awful shape but was repaired, the HST power car was written off.
It was on it's way out anyway. An unfair comparison.
 

najaB

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I have no issues with UK (not sure the HST being a write off is a sensible comparison as 10 years ago likely it would gave been repaired) but having seen some European diesel units virtually demolished in a collision (sure something akin to a 642 or 643 collided with a loco a few years back with dire consequences) and also an almost brand new flirt I'm not convinced modern European units are actually particularly crash worthy.
The thing that you need to keep in mind though is that the damage may look very bad but what matters more is the period over which that crumpling and deformation happens. By way of analogy, there were numerous cases in the past where cars came out of collisions looking more or less undamaged but the occupants were seriously injured or killed, as compared with modern cars which seem to pancake at the slightest impact but are highly survivable.
 

AlexNL

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I'm not convinced modern European units are actually particularly crash worthy
They are though, there's more to crashworthiness than 'can the damage be buffed out?'. The goal is protecting the passengers and crew, modern trains generally do a good job at that - the frame underpinning modern European units is very sturdy. After a crash the outer bodywork might look like a wreck but this is very much by design.
 

duesselmartin

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Things look worse than in the past as modern trains don't have a loco to take the brunt.
The stock in the Garmisch incident does not look overly damaged, despite the now 6 fatalities.
 
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Yes, from the photos the issue here is unfortunately going to be what happens following a roll-over rather than crashworthiness standards per se. Since passengers are not restrained, the consequences of a roll-over can be very serious (which seems to be what has happened here).
 

Richard Scott

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The thing that you need to keep in mind though is that the damage may look very bad but what matters more is the period over which that crumpling and deformation happens. By way of analogy, there were numerous cases in the past where cars came out of collisions looking more or less undamaged but the occupants were seriously injured or killed, as compared with modern cars which seem to pancake at the slightest impact but are highly survivable.
No, there were a number killed so damage was bad. I do have a considerable understanding of engineering and physics so quite capable of looking at a situation and making sense of it.

They are though, there's more to crashworthiness than 'can the damage be buffed out?'. The goal is protecting the passengers and crew, modern trains generally do a good job at that - the frame underpinning modern European units is very sturdy. After a crash the outer bodywork might look like a wreck but this is very much by design.
I'm well aware of all of that. Afraid a lot of modern European units are not very good at that, there is quite a difference between flimsy and something designed to crumple. Bodywork should not crumple on units except bits that are designed to. The Bad Aibling accident a good example.
 
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najaB

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No, there were a number killed so damage was bad. I do have a considerable understanding of engineering and physics so quite capable of looking at a situation and making sense of it.
That depends entirely on how they died. The problem may well have been something other than the rolling stock itself. Given that the carriages left the track it could have been a case of moving object hitting stationary person or moving person hitting stationary object.
 

43096

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I'm well aware of all of that. Afraid a lot of modern European units are not very good at that, there is quite a difference between flimsy and something designed to crumple. Bodywork should not crumple on units except bits that are designed to. The Bad Aibling accident a good example.
Given that Bad Aibling was an 80mph head-on-collision, I’m not sure how this knowledge of engineering and physics you profess to have applies. Clearly in that scenario, the trains are outside any crashworthiness design parameters.
 

Davester50

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Isn't this the problem with large windows where fatalities have occurred from ejection, and why the UK Pendolino involved in it's accident proved it's design of smaller safer windows also worked?
 

DanielB

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Given that the carriages left the track it could have been a case of moving object hitting stationary person or moving person hitting stationary object.
It doens't even have to be an object outside. After a collision in the Netherlands some years ago, it was actually concluded that "hitting parts of the train's interior" was the main cause of sometimes severe injuries. Add the additional energy involved in a train departing the tracks and this could also result in deaths, like in this crash in Bavaria.
 

edwin_m

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Isn't this the problem with large windows where fatalities have occurred from ejection, and why the UK Pendolino involved in it's accident proved it's design of smaller safer windows also worked?
It's got a lot to do with the type of glass. Laminated will usually preserve containment in an accident but toughened will just shatter (see Croydon overturning).
 

Richard Scott

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That depends entirely on how they died. The problem may well have been something other than the rolling stock itself. Given that the carriages left the track it could have been a case of moving object hitting stationary person or moving person hitting stationary object.
Really clutching at straws now. Where many die think we can safely assume most will be due to stock deforming and not offering adequate protection.
 

Beebman

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Bavarian news channel BR24 has just broadcast this report:


My understanding from it is that 3 railway employees are currently under investigation by the public prosecutor for 'negligent homicide', these being the driver, a signaller and an infrastructure manager. The bogies of the derailed coaches have been taken away for analysis and the track is being examined under crime scene conditions. (The loco and the last coach still remain where they came to rest.) The section of line was scheduled to have two weeks of nightly possessions for maintenance later this month.
 

YorkshireBear

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Bavarian news channel BR24 has just broadcast this report:


My understanding from it is that 3 railway employees are currently under investigation by the public prosecutor for 'negligent homicide', these being the driver, a signaller and an infrastructure manager. The bogies of the derailed coaches have been taken away for analysis and the track is being examined under crime scene conditions. (The loco and the last coach still remain where they came to rest.) The section of line was scheduled to have two weeks of nightly possessions for maintenance later this month.
For all to be investigated that means they still don't really know what happened I assume? As I can't think off the top of my head of a situation where it would be all three of their
faults, unless of course it is a Swiss cheese style situation.
 

MarkyT

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For all to be investigated that means they still don't really know what happened I assume? As I can't think off the top of my head of a situation where it would be all three of their
faults, unless of course it is a Swiss cheese style situation.
If there was a track condition issue driving the planned repairs/maintenance, perhaps there should have been a temporary speed restriction through the curve. If so, was it correctly implemented, signed, advised, understood, obeyed, etc... Just becasue they're all being questioned as the immediate responsible personel involved doesn't mean they were all at fault. The fact the infrastructure manager especially is involved suggests at least some concern arising about the state of track, structures or earthworks.
 

Richard Scott

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Thankfully, accident investigators don't assume.
No, have a look at the Hordorf accident too and see what happens when a modern unit is involved in the collisions. Wonder what investigations had to say about the strength of the passenger stock there and how it affected the fatalities? That's two accidents now quoted involving modern stock, both with significant fatalities; perhaps not all it's cracked up to be?
 

43096

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No, have a look at the Hordorf accident too and see what happens when a modern unit is involved in the collisions. Wonder what investigations had to say about the strength of the passenger stock there and how it affected the fatalities? That's two accidents now quoted involving modern stock, both with significant fatalities; perhaps not all it's cracked up to be?
Another head-on crash at around 80mph closing speed. Once again, that is outside any crashworthiness design parameters, unless this "considerable understanding of engineering and physics" you tell us you have says otherwise?
 

Richard Scott

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Another head-on crash at around 80mph closing speed. Once again, that is outside any crashworthiness design parameters, unless this "considerable understanding of engineering and physics" you tell us you have says otherwise?
That it may be but the loco was much less damaged. Ok then what is the specification for a train's crashworthiness? At the end of the day the unit was significantly more seriously damaged than the loco it collided with. Can argue all you like about closing speed, kinetic energy etc but the loco had to deal with that as well as force on loco and unit would have been equal in magnitude at time of collision.
 
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