December 2021 Timetable change

[philosopher]

I think it was cited elsewhere that there won't be a return to LNR running 3tph to Birmingham. Running unnecessary trains just for people to use cheaper LNR only tickets isn't great economics for the railway as a whole.

I think it depends. If those using LNWR cheap tickets from London to Birmingham would have used Avanti’s trains instead, it would indeed reduce overall revenue. However it they primarily would have used coaches or not travelled instead, you could argue it actually improves the economics of the railway.

 

[Minstral25]

GTR don't take ticket revenue risk but will be delighted to add some more operating costs to the bottom line which they earn a fee on.

Not really - they are currently running a Victoria, East Croydon, Gatwick, Haywards Heath, & Brighton service as a Southern service which in December becomes a Victoria, Gatwick, & Brighton service under Gatwick Express name. So same service but two less stops and of course an opportunity to charge more for the journey from Gatwick to Victoria.

Totally unnecessary and just an attempt to raise a few pounds extra revenue by DfT. The Treasury will be delighted.

 

[Kite159]

There are still two trains an hour from Northampton to Birmingham in the December timetable and therefore still two LNR-only connections from London to Birmingham, one involving a change of trains.

Just means the Crewe trains will be busier as passengers for Birmingham who would use the XX:49 service can travel on the XX:46 Crewe train to change at Rugby for that Northampton - Birmingham service getting into Birmingham 20-odd minutes earlier. Assuming they have an open ticket [rather than an advance ticket]

At least the current timetable where the Birmingham train is around XX:15 it can spread the load.

 

[Bald Rick]

What's the issue with these two lines (nowhere near me)? Is it shortage of stock or staff? Perhaps conversion of the Abbey Line to light rail was a good idea after all! On Marston Vale do the 230s still not work properly?

simply it is that they generate very little revenue for the costs required to run them. Therefore if crew are in short supply, they will e deployed on the main line in preference.

 

[Techniquest]

I think it depends. If those using LNWR cheap tickets from London to Birmingham would have used Avanti’s trains instead, it would indeed reduce overall revenue. However it they primarily would have used coaches or not travelled instead, you could argue it actually improves the economics of the railway.

I agree with that. When I do Birmingham to London, or more accurately travelling via Birmingham from Hereford, it's on a WMR/LNWR Only fare. I would not choose Avanti on that route because of the ridiculous prices they charge, so if the cheaper fare ceased to exist I would go elsewhere for my travel needs. Which would usually mean revenue that could go to the railway would go to National Express.

My sister sometimes has to travel from Cheshire to London, but chooses LNWR because of the huge price difference. She wouldn't go on Avanti because of their outrageous fares, so again if the cheaper fare wasn't available it would be more money lost to National Express.

That might well only be two examples, but I can only imagine how many other people turn their nose up at Avanti and go elsewhere. In the examples I provide, yes that's not much revenue and not too often, but when there's a cheaper and more convenient option on National Express the fact is the WMR/LNWR option to do the journey by rail is enough to pull the money over to the railway. When I need to take my bike, then yes the coach is not an option, but for the other times...

So I am very much against losing such a ticketing option!

 

[bussnapperwm]

Tbf for me its different when doing Brum to London. I'd rather pick Chiltern/via High Wycombe first, then LNWR 2nd. Mainly as the Chiltern option is merely a same platform connection at Solihull as opposed to doing a change at Smethwick/New Street.

My brother, on the other hand, is the opposite way round (he prefers walking across City and getting LNWR as its cheaper)

 

[IanXC]

Is there any update on TPE's Anglo Scottish Stoppers calling at Cramlington and Widdrington as yet?

 

[Watershed]

Is there any update on TPE's Anglo Scottish Stoppers calling at Cramlington and Widdrington as yet?

Cramlington is now an advertised call on 9N05, the first Up service. Widdrington has been removed.

I imagine the other services will follow suit soon.

 

[sleeper fan]

Is the Southeast 0550 service that stops at Wandsworth Road and Clapham High street ever going to return?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Is the Southeast 0550 service that stops at Wandsworth Road and Clapham High street ever going to return?

Massively doubtful.

 

[sleeper fan]

Massively doubtful.

Thought as much

 

[Siemens Staines]

GWR looks to be running a full service, similar to the Dec 19, except of course the Superfast services to/from Bristol TM. Are there any others missing? Luckily the services most important to me (S. Wales - London going back to 2tph, and 1C01 0545 Paddington - Bristol TM) are returning

The through Paddington - Bedwyn IET service still seems to be reduced. It was hourly in Dec 2019 and had returned to hourly by May 2021, but then withdrawn with the IET cracks issue (& replaced by 387s from Newbury - Paddington + 165 shuttles). Since then, a limited number have been re-instated, roughly at 2 hourly or 3 hourly intervals, and it looks to be similar from December.

 

[dk1]

Still no sign of the new 07:26 (SX) Norwich-Liverpool Street or the 09:00 Ni90 service & corresponding 19:00 return. Also the 08:30 ex-Norwich has still to be reinstated.

 

[Melancholia]

The through Paddington - Bedwyn IET service still seems to be reduced. It was hourly in Dec 2019 and had returned to hourly by May 2021, but then withdrawn with the IET cracks issue (& replaced by 387s from Newbury - Paddington + 165 shuttles). Since then, a limited number have been re-instated, roughly at 2 hourly or 3 hourly intervals, and it looks to be similar from December.

Yeah, if it weren't for that cracking issue, I'm sure it would be back to hourly direct service (or if somebody found some spare wires for that last little bit to Bedwyn *hint* *hint* )

As far as covid timetable cutbacks go, we'll be back to normal service, apart from of course the superfasts which I'd mentioned before.

 

[DaveHarries]

One that I have just noticed.

1A74 (0713 Paignton - London Paddington via. Frome, due 1029) revised to start from Plymouth at 0640 and renumbered, for some reason, as 1J74. The 2 minute wait by 1A74 at Exeter St. Davids (arr. 0758, dep. 0800) is lengthened for 1J74 (arr. 0746, dep. 0800) and times between Exeter St. Davids and London Paddington are unchanged. Interestingly (and perhaps somewhat pointlessly?) train 1A73 overtakes 1J74 at Exeter SD (arr. 0750, dep. 0752): I would have thought that there is not much point in having two so close together.

Dave

 

[berneyarms]

The Plymouth train is the stopper from Exeter to Paddington, while the other is an express serving only Taunton and Reading.

 

[louis97]

One that I have just noticed.

1A74 (0713 Paignton - London Paddington via. Frome, due 1029) revised to start from Plymouth at 0640 and renumbered, for some reason, as 1J74. The 2 minute wait by 1A74 at Exeter St. Davids (arr. 0758, dep. 0800) is lengthened for 1J74 (arr. 0746, dep. 0800) and times between Exeter St. Davids and London Paddington are unchanged. Interestingly (and perhaps somewhat pointlessly?) train 1A73 overtakes 1J74 at Exeter SD (arr. 0750, dep. 0752): I would have thought that there is not much point in having two so close together.

Dave

Rekeyed to 1J74 because of the call at Frome.

 

[Max]

I've also been doing some detailed digging into the GWR Dec 21 timetable and have spotted this interesting one: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L87703/2022-01-10/detailed
The service effectively replaces the long-standing morning XC service between Cardiff and Bristol (previously continued north), which was briefly reinstated post-COVID but now appears to be gone. Is this the first partially electric local stopper from Cardiff to Bristol?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I've also been doing some detailed digging into the GWR Dec 21 timetable and have spotted this interesting one: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L87703/2022-01-10/detailed
The service effectively replaces the long-standing morning XC service between Cardiff and Bristol (previously continued north), which was briefly reinstated post-COVID but now appears to be gone. Is this the first partially electric local stopper from Cardiff to Bristol?

Yes it does replace the XC service and no not the first electric local stopper - for quite a while one of the Saturday Cardiff to Taunton diagrams was booked an 800.

 

[Max]

Yes it does replace the XC service and no not the first electric local stopper - for quite a while one of the Saturday Cardiff to Taunton diagrams was booked an 800.

Ah, that's interesting! I only tend to travel the route in the week so I wasn't aware.

 

[30907]

Aapologies if I've missed this on here, but I've discovered from another (German!) forum that the Dec 2021 timetable is available to download; it is in a completely new format, includes headcodes, and the tables themselves have changed substantially. Happy reading!and
https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/the-timetable/electronic-national-rail-timetable/

 

[dk1]

I notice Buckenham has gained a Monday to Friday stop for the first time in over 20 years. The 08:50 ex-Lowestoft & 16:58 ex-Norwich make the call at this little used station. I’m not implying anything but a certain GA employee doesn't live a million miles away from this remote station now. A coincidence obviously lol.

 

[David Turner]

Aapologies if I've missed this on here, but I've discovered from another (German!) forum that the Dec 2021 timetable is available to download; it is in a completely new format, includes headcodes, and the tables themselves have changed substantially. Happy reading!and
https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/the-timetable/electronic-national-rail-timetable/

Thanks for the prompt, have just downloaded the new timetable and looks good. Splitting the East Coast Main line at York is a huge improvement. After many years of reporting that the 19.07 London Euston to Liverpool Lime Street didn’t appear in the timetable, the current 19.00 is now shown. It only took about five years to make the change.

All I have to do now is get used to the new table numbers, its certainly a much clearer presentation.

David Turner

 

[Alfie1014]

Aapologies if I've missed this on here, but I've discovered from another (German!) forum that the Dec 2021 timetable is available to download; it is in a completely new format, includes headcodes, and the tables themselves have changed substantially. Happy reading!and
https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/the-timetable/electronic-national-rail-timetable/

Sadly these don’t reflect the actual timetables due to run, at least in the case of GA, as dk1 mentions the missing London - Norwich services are shown in the NR tables, also including the 18:10 SX down and the 19:10 SX LST - IPS which just to confuse matters further is shown in GA’s new pdf as a connection into the Sudbury branch at Marks Tey rather than the actual 18:48 ex Liv St. If the NR tables don’t show what’s actually to run I’m not sure what value they add?

 

[306024]

Sadly these don’t reflect the actual timetables due to run, at least in the case of GA, as dk1 mentions the missing London - Norwich services are shown in the NR tables, also including the 18:10 SX down and the 19:10 SX LST - IPS which just to confuse matters further is shown in GA’s new pdf as a connection into the Sudbury branch at Marks Tey rather than the actual 18:48 ex Liv St. If the NR tables don’t show what’s actually to run I’m not sure what value they add?

It is to show what you could have won Clearly the printed tables for GA represent the long term plan, which disappointingly is still subject to random Norwich trains being removed creating gaps in many journey opportunities.

I notice Buckenham has gained a Monday to Friday stop for the first time in over 20 years. The 08:50 ex-Lowestoft & 16:58 ex-Norwich make the call at this little used station. I’m not implying anything but a certain GA employee doesn't live a million miles away from this remote station now. A coincidence obviously lol.

Not the first time this sort of coincidence has occurred though

 

[berneyarms]

Sadly these don’t reflect the actual timetables due to run, at least in the case of GA, as dk1 mentions the missing London - Norwich services are shown in the NR tables, also including the 18:10 SX down and the 19:10 SX LST - IPS which just to confuse matters further is shown in GA’s new pdf as a connection into the Sudbury branch at Marks Tey rather than the actual 18:48 ex Liv St. If the NR tables don’t show what’s actually to run I’m not sure what value they add?

Presumably these were last minute changes?

Back in the days of the printed timetable book there was always a late supplement issued covering things like that.

 

[306024]

So it appears NR have outsourced the NRT production. This thread discussed it a while back:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ail-timetable-what-do-you-think-of-it.219222/

Presumably these were last minute changes?

Not last minute, these are a continuation of the same cancellations that have applied since May 21.

 

[berneyarms]

So it appears NR have outsourced the NRT production. This thread discussed it a while back:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ail-timetable-what-do-you-think-of-it.219222/



Not last minute, these are a continuation of the same cancellations that have applied since May 21.

Yes, but when was that decision taken with regard to those services in the new timetable period?

 

[306024]

Yes, but when was that decision taken with regard to those services in the new timetable period?

Only those involved know that, could have been ages ago but with the intention of introducing them during the Dec 21 timetable period. At least it maintains some hope that they could be introduced before May 22 but holding breath is not recommended.

 

[berneyarms]

Only those involved know that, could have been ages ago but with the intention of introducing them during the Dec 21 timetable period. At least it maintains some hope that they could be introduced before May 22 but holding breath is not recommended.

That's really my point. They are in the base working timetable from December onwards, but are now marked as cancelled throughout.

The actual decision to do that may have been after the files for the eNRT were prepared.