December 2022 Timetable Changes

[jayah]

Also fingers crossed XC reintroduce their hourly Newcastle to Reading service via Doncaster

An hourly XC service between Exeter and Birmingham would be a start.

 

[molecrochip]

No, the current timetable is a permanent reduction. There was a consultation on it I believe (though like all "consultations", the outcome was largely decided before it was even published!).

Didn’t help that SWR would take input from individuals, only stakeholders (groups) they identified.

 

[swt_passenger]

Didn’t help that SWR would take input from individuals, only stakeholders (groups) they identified.

Presumably you meant would not take input?

 

[molecrochip]

Presumably you meant would not take input?

Yes - apologies. SWR determined who could respond and it did not include passengers.

Yes - apologies. SWR determined who could respond and it did not include passengers.

They said:

We are considering a specification for services rather than specific trains or a timetable. It is for that reason that we are consulting with a defined set of organisations, which have a strategic or representative role rather than the wider community. This includes all MPs and district and county councillors across our network, as well as passenger groups amongst others.

It’s also important to note that SWR said:

How will you respond if passenger numbers recover more quickly, or new patterns of travelling emerge, before December 2022?
Our comprehensive customer research does not suggest that this is likely. However, we view this outline specification as a baseline for the future and, working within the set parameters for timetable changes, SWR and Network Rail will discuss how best to respond to emerging travel patterns with the Department for Transport.

SWR have badly managed those new patterns of travel and have so far failed to meet demand.

I don’t expect SWR to have taken anything on board.

 

[Weekender]

Will probably get deferred again unless there is serious progress with getting the 769s into traffic and the Reading 165s released and through the refurbishment programme.

That’s what I was dreading. I travel frequently at weekends between Gloucester and Bristol and for a few months now the hourly trains have been overcrowded. The only way to be sure of a seat now is to change at Severn Tunnel Junction.

 

[dk1]

An hourly XC service between Exeter and Birmingham would be a start.

Extremely poor that it hasn’t returned at the very least considering their desire to go half hourly with all Manchester-Bristols extended through.

 

[Chiltern006]

This is some stuff for Southeastern for December

• Orpington-Cannon Street stoppers no longer call at Lewisham
• Sevenoaks-Charing Cross will additionally call at Lewisham
• 4TPH Orpington-Victoria in the peak

 

[swt_passenger]

Extremely poor that it hasn’t returned at the very least considering their desire to go half hourly with all Manchester-Bristols extended through.

I thought that was dropped after the relevant consultation when they came up against resistance from the natives of Paignton? It certainly went a bit quiet.

 

[dk1]

I thought that was dropped after the relevant consultation when they came up against resistance from the natives of Paignton? It certainly went a bit quiet.

It is possibly revised with the prospect of more 221s heading XCs way & the platform 2 extension at St.David’s.

 

[Horizon22]

This is some stuff for Southeastern for December

• Orpington-Cannon Street stoppers no longer call at Lewisham
• Sevenoaks-Charing Cross will additionally call at Lewisham
• 4TPH Orpington-Victoria in the peak

Has the issue being resolved around Orpington terminating platforms capacity/congestion then tied in with Thameslink or has there been a subsequent decline in the GTR services?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Has the issue being resolved around Orpington terminating platforms capacity/congestion then tied in with Thameslink or has there been a subsequent decline in the GTR services?

Well the timetable didn’t support the 2tph Thameslink, the multiple Southeastern services and then any stuff coming across Bickley Junction.

As it is, with a standard pattern and only 6tph via Grove Park (2 of which don’t use the bays) and you should be able to achieve 10tph in 3 bays.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

This is some stuff for Southeastern for December

• Orpington-Cannon Street stoppers no longer call at Lewisham
• Sevenoaks-Charing Cross will additionally call at Lewisham
• 4TPH Orpington-Victoria in the peak

This is excellent news. The same should probably happen, if they could make it so, for the stuff from Gravesend to Charing Cross to create more direct journeys and DLR connections.

 

[Horizon22]

Well the timetable didn’t support the 2tph Thameslink, the multiple Southeastern services and then any stuff coming across Bickley Junction.

As it is, with a standard pattern and only 6tph via Grove Park (2 of which don’t use the bays) and you should be able to achieve 10tph in 3 bays.

Yes so my question is what’s different. Charing X or Cannon St services reduced?

 

[Kite159]

Yes so my question is what’s different. Charing X or Cannon St services reduced?

Isn't the reduction with trains from Victoria which used to be 4tph to Orpington, cut back to 2tph with the other 2tph spinning at Bromley South (effectively replaced by the 2tph Thameslink to Orpington if they ever come back)?

 

[Horizon22]

Isn't the reduction with trains from Victoria which used to be 4tph to Orpington, cut back to 2tph with the other 2tph spinning at Bromley South (effectively replaced by the 2tph Thameslink to Orpington if they ever come back)?

The original post above explicitly said 4tph Orpington-Victoria, hence my asking these questions! I'm aware of the 2tph Bromley South being required because of capacity constraints caused by Thameslink, and all other things being the same, then it won't work.

 

[jnjkerbin]

This is some stuff for Southeastern for December

• Orpington-Cannon Street stoppers no longer call at Lewisham
• Sevenoaks-Charing Cross will additionally call at Lewisham
• 4TPH Orpington-Victoria in the peak

What's the logic behind swapping the Lewisham stops from the Orpington to the Sevenoaks train? Now passengers from Dunton Green, Knockholt and Chelsfield face an even longer journey into London, especially since the removal of the 2tph Tunbridge Wells - Charing X there is now no fast connection available at Orpington.

For example, when the ex-Tunbridge Wells trains ran off-peak it was possible to make the change at Orpington and do Dunton Green - London Bridge in about 30 minutes. Since the removal of the xx21 and xx51 Tunbridge Wells - Charing X, the scheduled journey time has increased to 37 minutes, and the detour to Lewisham would increase it to around 42 minutes. Unless there's a retiming of the remaing Hastings - Charing X trains to connect at Orpington, or the reinstatement of the TBW trains, this seems like a pretty poor state of affairs.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

What's the logic behind swapping the Lewisham stops from the Orpington to the Sevenoaks train? Now passengers from Dunton Green, Knockholt and Chelsfield face an even longer journey into London, especially since the removal of the 2tph Tunbridge Wells - Charing X there is now no fast connection available at Orpington.

For example, when the ex-Tunbridge Wells trains ran off-peak it was possible to make the change at Orpington and do Dunton Green - London Bridge in about 30 minutes. Since the removal of the xx21 and xx51 Tunbridge Wells - Charing X, the scheduled journey time has increased to 37 minutes, and the detour to Lewisham would increase it to around 42 minutes. Unless there's a retiming of the remaing Hastings - Charing X trains to connect at Orpington, or the reinstatement of the TBW trains, this seems like a pretty poor state of affairs.

If I lived in a small village that has always had Metro services, I would probably enjoy and appreciate the Lewisham connection which previously I couldn’t have. It opens up more than it closes, including Denmark Hill (off peak via Lewisham not necessitating a change) and makes journeys to New Cross for the Overground slightly faster, too.

I’d say this is a great bit of news. And it’s also very good for Lewisham <> Charing Cross capacity.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I'm hoping for a reintroduction of the second train per hour between st. Pancras and the Medway towns

 

[SE%Traveller]

What's the logic behind swapping the Lewisham stops from the Orpington to the Sevenoaks train?

I'm guessing this is about reducing conflicting moves: Charring Cross Trains presumably will use the Tanners Fly down so they don't cross to the Fast Lines on the flat; Cannon Street Trains will no longer cross Lewisham Junction.

 

[RPI]

It is possibly revised with the prospect of more 221s heading XCs way & the platform 2 extension at St.David’s.

Though the trains that the platform 2 extension was intended for (hourly Exeter Manchester) can't return anyway, most of those paths are now taken by GWR Penzance-Cardiff services xx54 (ish) past the hour from Exeter St Davids

There should also be a morning GWR Axminster to Exeter service plugging the current gap in the hourly service, it was desired for the last timetable change but lack of units seemed to scupper this (and probably will in December too)

 

[irish_rail]

Extremely poor that it hasn’t returned at the very least considering their desire to go half hourly with all Manchester-Bristols extended through.

I personally don't think anything should be terminating at Bristol from the north as it just leaves passengers waiting for the next XC south. They must continue at least to Taunton or Exeter in order to allow passengers to access GWR for services to the south west. Terminating at Bristol may be operationally convenient for XC but it really isn't for passengers.

 

[dk1]

I personally don't think anything should be terminating at Bristol from the north as it just leaves passengers waiting for the next XC south. They must continue at least to Taunton or Exeter in order to allow passengers to access GWR for services to the south west. Terminating at Bristol may be operationally convenient for XC but it really isn't for passengers.

I hear you & agree matey.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Interesting to see if the GEML is recast with the 720s coming online

 

[dk1]

Interesting to see if the GEML is recast with the 720s coming online

Supposed to be still but I’m going more for May 23 now rather than this December.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Supposed to be still but I’m going more for May 23 now rather than this December.

Would make sense with the WAML likely to get recast in May 23 as well.

This is some stuff for Southeastern for December

• Orpington-Cannon Street stoppers no longer call at Lewisham
• Sevenoaks-Charing Cross will additionally call at Lewisham
• 4TPH Orpington-Victoria in the peak

The rest of it is even more interesting.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I personally don't think anything should be terminating at Bristol from the north as it just leaves passengers waiting for the next XC south.

Does it? Bristol is a major destination in its own right.

 

[Bald Rick]

Interesting to see if the GEML is recast with the 720s coming online

no. Nor in May.

 

[Sleepy]

Wow. Hope some more timings tweaked then - some services have ridiculous station dwell times eg. 1P50 can sit at Manningtree and Ipswich over 5 minutes.

 

[nw1]

What's the logic behind swapping the Lewisham stops from the Orpington to the Sevenoaks train? Now passengers from Dunton Green, Knockholt and Chelsfield face an even longer journey into London, especially since the removal of the 2tph Tunbridge Wells - Charing X there is now no fast connection available at Orpington.

For example, when the ex-Tunbridge Wells trains ran off-peak it was possible to make the change at Orpington and do Dunton Green - London Bridge in about 30 minutes. Since the removal of the xx21 and xx51 Tunbridge Wells - Charing X, the scheduled journey time has increased to 37 minutes, and the detour to Lewisham would increase it to around 42 minutes. Unless there's a retiming of the remaing Hastings - Charing X trains to connect at Orpington, or the reinstatement of the TBW trains, this seems like a pretty poor state of affairs.

A bit of an OT aside but back in the late 80s, immediately after the Hastings electrification, those three stops (Chelsfield-Knockholt-Dunton Green) had a regular fast direct service off peak (the 80s edition of the Tunbridge Wells terminator) using CEPs and VEPs which was fast London Bridge to Petts Wood.

In the peak, though, Chelsfield got the stop in the Tunbridge Wells (every 20min) but the other two only got suburban services. Not sure whether they went via Lewisham or not, or whether you could change at Orpington for faster services.

 

[Randomer]

Does it? Bristol is a major destination in its own right.

From personal experience over the past couple of weeks the XC Bristol terminators are causing serious capacity issues. Or more correctly even more capacity issues than XC normally has, especially when some of the services have ended up back as single units but at the reduced frequency. It has got to the point that I've been telling colleagues to aim for the GWR Cardiff-Penzance stopper even if the journey will be slower, you are far more likely to get a seat as the journey planners won't default to showing a slightly slower journey.

I accept that services finishing late in the evening will always end up terminating at Bristol but the ones now doing so in the middle of the day really should revert to the old pattern in December. Frankly the whole XC timetable needs looking at, I don't hate the 2 hourly frequency but some services are ending up with the lower frequency and single units. There wasn't enough capacity with single units hourly, half that isn't working at all.