December 2022 Timetable Changes

[nw1]

Is anything known to be happening in Kent that can be disclosed? Hoping that the Maidstone East and Medway Valley lines get 2tph off peak again, where they're currently only hourly midweek but seem capable of doing 2tph on Saturdays.

Incredible Maidstone East is not 2tph off peak. It's had 2tph since at least 1981. Are Southeastern suffering from the same chronic unit shortage as Southern?

An hourly XC service between Exeter and Birmingham would be a start.

Is the hourly XC from Bournemouth and Southampton coming back?

Never mind the long distance journeys, it has considerably worsened connectivity to closer destinations such as Reading, and thus the Thames Valley.

For most of the 90s the route had a more frequent XC service than currently. Not quite hourly, but basically "hourly with a few gaps".

 

[brad465]

Incredible Maidstone East is not 2tph off peak. It's had 2tph since at least 1981. Are Southeastern suffering from the same chronic unit shortage as Southern?

They may have a bit of a shortage soon when half of its 377s leave for Southern, but the remaining 707s from SWR are also due. Pre-covid they had a shortage due to high demand but lack of stabling capacity to bring in extra stock, evident in the 465/2s going into storage with the arrival of the first 707s (coupled with the former being in a bit of a state).

 

[nw1]

They may have a bit of a shortage soon when half of its 377s leave for Southern, but the remaining 707s from SWR are also due. Pre-covid they had a shortage due to high demand but lack of stabling capacity to bring in extra stock, evident in the 465/2s going into storage with the arrival of the first 707s (coupled with the former being in a bit of a state).

Could the 465/9s come back? (ISTR they were taken off service when the 377s arrived, but not sure what's happened to them since).

 

[brad465]

Could the 465/9s come back? (ISTR they were taken off service when the 377s arrived, but not sure what's happened to them since).

I believe that's the expectation, although due to SDO they can't run longer than 6 car down to Ashford, and only 4 car through to Canterbury West (whereas 377s do 8 car commonly). If SE have the space they may want to bring back the 5x 466s also in storage to help make more 6 car formations.

 

[OrangeJuice]

Incredible Maidstone East is not 2tph off peak. It's had 2tph since at least 1981. Are Southeastern suffering from the same chronic unit shortage as Southern?



Is the hourly XC from Bournemouth and Southampton coming back?

Never mind the long distance journeys, it has considerably worsened connectivity to closer destinations such as Reading, and thus the Thames Valley.

For most of the 90s the route had a more frequent XC service than currently. Not quite hourly, but basically "hourly with a few gaps".

XC is still two hourly south of Reading to Southampton, which is very frustrating as the connections from the following reading terminator at Basingstoke are terrible so saves you barely any time over the following through XC

 

[30907]

Incredible Maidstone East is not 2tph off peak. It's had 2tph since at least 1981. Are Southeastern suffering from the same chronic unit shortage as Southern?

Since 1963 actually, but often a 2-Hap sufficing! More likely a shortage a weekday passengers.

 

[ChrisC]

It would be good to see all the cuts from EMR regional services restored to at least the pre Covid timetables. The remaining gaps in the Nottingham to Crewe and Liverpool to Norwich timetables are really annoying if you are using these as part of a longer journey and miss your connection. Hopefully the Nottingham to Mansfield Woodhouse trains will return to restore the Nottingham to Mansfield half hourly frequency. Also the Derby to Matlock service running through to Nottingham again would be very welcome especially to fill the gap each hour between Nottingham and Derby.

Yesterday I travelled from Plymouth to Mansfield and the EMR reduced timetables really made the end of my journey tedious to say the least. My train departed Plymouth at 0927 and arrived in Derby at 1336. No connection to Nottingham until 1413. Then arrived in Nottingham at 1432 with no connection to Mansfield until 1525. It only took just over 4 hours to travel all the way from Plymouth to Derby then another 2 and a half hours after arriving in Derby to reach Mansfield less than 25 miles away! It was the same a week previous for my outward journey when I had to leave Mansfield at at 0812 to get the 1031 departure from Derby to Plymouth. With the EMR current timetables travelling anywhere other than London from the Mansfield area has waits of up 1 hour for a connection in Nottingham.

 

[43055]

It would be good to see all the cuts from EMR regional services restored to at least the pre Covid timetables. The remaining gaps in the Nottingham to Crewe and Liverpool to Norwich timetables are really annoying if you are using these as part of a longer journey and miss your connection. Hopefully the Nottingham to Mansfield Woodhouse trains will return to restore the Nottingham to Mansfield half hourly frequency. Also the Derby to Matlock service running through to Nottingham again would be very welcome especially to fill the gap each hour between Nottingham and Derby.

Yesterday I travelled from Plymouth to Mansfield and the EMR reduced timetables really made the end of my journey tedious to say the least. My train departed Plymouth at 0927 and arrived in Derby at 1336. No connection to Nottingham until 1413. Then arrived in Nottingham at 1432 with no connection to Mansfield until 1525. It only took just over 4 hours to travel all the way from Plymouth to Derby then another 2 and a half hours after arriving in Derby to reach Mansfield less than 25 miles away! It was the same a week previous for my outward journey when I had to leave Mansfield at at 0812 to get the 1031 departure from Derby to Plymouth. With the EMR current timetables travelling anywhere other than London from the Mansfield area has waits of up 1 hour for a connection in Nottingham.

I agree that the regional side needs to be restored. If the 1648 from Derby to Crewe existed (not a bus) then I would use the train more to/from work.

As for the connection from Derby to Mansfield it would of been up to 40 mins quicker if you had a (very) quick walk into Derby to get the 13:50 9.1!

 

[ChrisC]

I agree that the regional side needs to be restored. If the 1648 from Derby to Crewe existed (not a bus) then I would use the train more to/from work.

As for the connection from Derby to Mansfield it would of been up to 40 mins quicker if you had a (very) quick walk into Derby to get the 13:50 9.1!

I’d looked at the bus timetables from Derby to Mansfield but not possible to walk that quickly with luggage. Also the bus goes from Corporation Street which is slightly further to walk than the bus station. No better at Nottingham with the long walk to the Victoria Bus Station. Some of the cuts to EMR regional timetables, which were originally announced as temporary for a couple of months will have lasted 18 months even if they are restored in December.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I’d looked at the bus timetables from Derby to Mansfield but not possible to walk that quickly with luggage. Also the bus goes from Corporation Street which is slightly further to walk than the bus station. No better at Nottingham with the long walk to the Victoria Bus Station. Some of the cuts to EMR regional timetables, which were originally announced as temporary for a couple of months will have lasted 18 months even if they are restored in December.

Yes but the current cancellations show the staffing situation does not allow restoration of those services, there’s no point advertising something you have no ability to operate.

A big problem the railway is finding as it emerges from the pandemic is at the height of the pandemic there were mass redundancies from the aviation sector, many of these took jobs on the railways and just as we finish training them the aviation sector is struggling with staff numbers and offers huge bonuses for them to go back, which they do leaving the railway at square one regarding staffing numbers.

You can take on staff and train them, you can’t force them to stay….

 

[Jamesrob637]

Never mind the actual timetable change for a minute, isn't it a good idea for TOCs to gradually reinstate missing services over the summer and autumn, rather than just waiting until December? December is the limit and not the target, so to speak.

 

[Watershed]

Never mind the actual timetable change for a minute, isn't it a good idea for TOCs to gradually reinstate missing services over the summer and autumn, rather than just waiting until December? December is the limit and not the target, so to speak.

Yes and no. In theory it's a great idea but implementing timetable changes mid-timetable is much harder and so is generally avoided where possible.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Yes and no. In theory it's a great idea but implementing timetable changes mid-timetable is much harder and so is generally avoided where possible.

It's much better for the traveling public to know that things are being done over time rather than all in one go though.

 

[irish_rail]

Does it? Bristol is a major destination in its own right.

Perhaps, but anecdotally the amount of people travelling through Bristol or boarding at Bristol heading south west is huge. I also think much of the draw for Bristol is from London and the south east plus south Wales. Northerners are more likely headed to Devon and Cornwall.
Also relevant is that Bristol IS a major destination FROM the south west, Plymouth/ Exeter etc, yet other than the GWR stoppers we don't even get an hourly service. Id argue there is more demand from Plymouth and Exeter to Bristol than there is from Birmingham to Bristol.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Perhaps, but anecdotally the amount of people travelling through Bristol or boarding at Bristol heading south west is huge. I also think much of the draw for Bristol is from London and the south east plus south Wales. Northerners are more likely headed to Devon and Cornwall.
Also relevant is that Bristol IS a major destination FROM the south west, Plymouth/ Exeter etc, yet other than the GWR stoppers we don't even get an hourly service. Id argue there is more demand from Plymouth and Exeter to Bristol than there is from Birmingham to Bristol.

Plymouth to Bristol probably has its best ever service at the moment, take the morning, direct departures at:

0525, 0627, 0725, 0850, 0927, 0937, 1050, 1127, 1153, 1227, 1250, 1327.

Looking back through the various GBTTs I can’t see when Plymouth ever had such a good service direct to Bristol, 12 trains in an 8 hour window!

 

[Bald Rick]

isn't it a good idea for TOCs to gradually reinstate missing services over the summer and autumn, rather than just waiting until December?

I’m afraid it isn’t A good idea, for lots of reasons.

It's much better for the traveling public to know that things are being done over time rather than all in one go though.

on balance it isn’t better.

 

[Hedgehog1977]

This is some stuff for Southeastern for December

• Orpington-Cannon Street stoppers no longer call at Lewisham
• Sevenoaks-Charing Cross will additionally call at Lewisham
• 4TPH Orpington-Victoria in the peak

Any indication that the Vic - Orp (or Vic - Bms) going back to 4TPH in the off peaks. Especially from 9pm onward?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

It's much better for the traveling public to know that things are being done over time rather than all in one go though.

Or passengers waiting from June 2021 for journeys to be reinstated, as promised, over the next few months, leading to December, then May 2022, then December 2022, then who knows. Looking at you EMR.

 

[irish_rail]

Plymouth to Bristol probably has its best ever service at the moment, take the morning, direct departures at:

0525, 0627, 0725, 0850, 0927, 0937, 1050, 1127, 1153, 1227, 1250, 1327.

Looking back through the various GBTTs I can’t see when Plymouth ever had such a good service direct to Bristol, 12 trains in an 8 hour window!

And how many of those trains are 'fast' and take 2 hours???? Getting on an all stations stopper really isn't what passengers expect when making a fairly long distance trip.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

And how many of those trains are 'fast' and take 2 hours???? Getting on an all stations stopper really isn't what passengers expect when making a fairly long distance trip.

They all take between 2 hours and 2 hours 25 minutes for a journey of 125 miles. All run with intercity style rolling stock and are competitive with a car which at this moment in time google maps says will take 2 hours 20 minutes. Looking back over the years 2 hours 15 minutes seems a very average time for Plymouth to Bristol services which the current mix of slightly faster than that and slightly slower than that services still offer. I can’t find any all stations services between Plymouth and Bristol.

Also very comparable to another ‘Intercity’ between two regional cities also connected by mainline, Sheffield and Newcastle. Same distance, same driving time. Less direct trains, but fractionally quicker at 2 hours 15 minutes.

And finally for somewhere worse off, another two regional cities, Southampton and Birmingham. Again very similar mileage and driving time by road and get the train is only every 2 hours with a journey time of 2 hours 20 minutes, very similar to these “slow trains” between Plymouth and Bristol you are on about.

For regional links I don’t think Plymouth to Bristol is as hard done by as you make out.

 

[philosopher]

Yes and no. In theory it's a great idea but implementing timetable changes mid-timetable is much harder and so is generally avoided where possible.

I always thought there was a timetable change in September. If so, that could be use to reinstate some services.

 

[irish_rail]

They all take between 2 hours and 2 hours 25 minutes for a journey of 125 miles. All run with intercity style rolling stock and are competitive with a car which at this moment in time google maps says will take 2 hours 20 minutes. Looking back over the years 2 hours 15 minutes seems a very average time for Plymouth to Bristol services which the current mix of slightly faster than that and slightly slower than that services still offer. I can’t find any all stations services between Plymouth and Bristol.

Also very comparable to another ‘Intercity’ between two regional cities also connected by mainline, Sheffield and Newcastle. Same distance, same driving time. Less direct trains, but fractionally quicker at 2 hours 15 minutes.

And finally for somewhere worse off, another two regional cities, Southampton and Birmingham. Again very similar mileage and driving time by road and get the train is only every 2 hours with a journey time of 2 hours 20 minutes, very similar to these “slow trains” between Plymouth and Bristol you are on about.

For regional links I don’t think Plymouth to Bristol is as hard done by as you make out.

So 2hrs and 25mins to connect the south wests two major cities is ok is it. Jeez, what about levelling up??!! In 2hrs 25 one could get from London to the north west or Yorkshire, or London to Cardiff, yet, two regional cities in the same part of the country are nearly 2 and a half hours apart!? Do you not want to see any improvements to the railway or are you in the HS2 is great camp and everyone else can just make do with what they've got. I don't know where you live , but I can tell you living down here can feel quite isolating when you are so far away from the next major city. Other parts of the country strive to drive down journey times between regional centres, and yet down here we can just be lucky things are broadly the same as they where 30 years ago????
And Southampton to Birmingham or Sheffield to Newcastle are not relevant comparisons because in Southamptons case it looks more towards London and Sheffield to Leeds or Manchester, both considerably closer than 2 and a half hours away!

 

[The Planner]

I always thought there was a timetable change in September. If so, that could be use to reinstate some services.

December and May are the two recognised change opportunities, though that could well be changing in the next couple of years.

 

[Watershed]

I always thought there was a timetable change in September. If so, that could be use to reinstate some services.

There is nothing preventing TOCs from bidding different period dated trains, e.g. such as to have a timetable uplift in September. For example that's what Avanti currently have in the system, although I very much doubt it will materialise.

But changing things once the timetable has been bid and offered is a huge piece of work and for many TOCs (and at NR's end) there just aren't the resources to keep on changing things.

 

[nw1]

December and May are the two recognised change opportunities, though that could well be changing in the next couple of years.

Always was late Sep/early Oct, certainly in the 80s and 90s, including post-privatisation. Not sure exactly when it changed, I would guess between 2002 and 2004, as I seem to remember Operation Princess being introduced in early Oct 2002, but the SWT "big bang" timetable was Dec 2004.

In some ways late Sep/early Oct would make more sense than Dec, as it is the natural transition from the summer half-year to the winter half-year. So it would permit, for example, high-season-only trains to run in the May timetable, and then be removed in the Sep/Oct timetable. December by contrast is halfway through winter so seems a strange time to change the timetables, as low-season schedules would apply both before and after the change. Essentially what we have is a "winter-spring" and a "summer-autumn" timetable; arguably that should change to a "spring-summer" and an "autumn-winter" timetable to better match the "on" and "off" seasons.

Perhaps the May change could even move forward to April, to ensure Easter and the May Day holiday are included in the "on-season" timetable.

 

[The exile]

So 2hrs and 25mins to connect the south wests two major cities is ok is it. Jeez, what about levelling up??!! In 2hrs 25 one could get from London to the north west or Yorkshire, or London to Cardiff, yet, two regional cities in the same part of the country are nearly 2 and a half hours apart!? Do you not want to see any improvements to the railway or are you in the HS2 is great camp and everyone else can just make do with what they've got. I don't know where you live , but I can tell you living down here can feel quite isolating when you are so far away from the next major city. Other parts of the country strive to drive down journey times between regional centres, and yet down here we can just be lucky things are broadly the same as they where 30 years ago????
And Southampton to Birmingham or Sheffield to Newcastle are not relevant comparisons because in Southamptons case it looks more towards London and Sheffield to Leeds or Manchester, both considerably closer than 2 and a half hours away!

Questionable how much Bristol and Plymouth “look to” each other either.

 

[nw1]

And Southampton to Birmingham or Sheffield to Newcastle are not relevant comparisons because in Southamptons case it looks more towards London and Sheffield to Leeds or Manchester, both considerably closer than 2 and a half hours away!

Though the XC link from Southampton is quite a key link, as it provides opportunity to head north while avoiding London. It also provides the only link to Reading and the Thames Valley (connections are otherwise poor) which is commutable distance.

Granted XC has a reputation for being overcrowded (which can put you off) but given appropriate-length trains, it's a useful service. It needs to continue to run as double units (as now), or longer units, but hourly. (Going OT maybe obtaining Meridians would facilitate this)

 

[HamworthyGoods]

And Southampton to Birmingham or Sheffield to Newcastle are not relevant comparisons because in Southamptons case it looks more towards London and Sheffield to Leeds or Manchester, both considerably closer than 2 and a half hours away!

Well of course Sheffield to Manchester and Leeds are considerably closers than 2 and a half hours away because the cities are far less miles apart.

I was using these cities as a comparison for journey times over a similar distance and there you find the time taken is comparable, of course if the nearer major city is closer you’ll generally get there quicker!

I’ll give you a different comparison then of a city that’s out on a limb like Plymouth, Aberdeen’s next biggest city is Edinburgh, it’s 125 miles the exact same miles as Bristol to Plymouth, has less direct trains and takes between 2hours 20 and 2hours 35, so very similar in all respects.

I’m not saying it wouldn’t be nicer to have quicker links, I’m just saying the service between Plymouth and Bristol is comparable to many others.

 

[nw1]

Since 1963 actually, but often a 2-Hap sufficing! More likely a shortage a weekday passengers.

Indeed, looking at the 1981 CWN the slower Maidstone services were a veritable HAPfest! An odd timetable too, dividers with Chatham slows but asymmetric in the up and down directions. 1982 seems to have been when the 'classic' 6tph out of Victoria (2 fast, 2 slow, 2 Maidstone, in a clockface pattern) was introduced. But this is going OT.. however maybe it can be continued in the Nostalgia section if anyone's interested.

 

[brad465]

This is some stuff for Southeastern for December

• Orpington-Cannon Street stoppers no longer call at Lewisham
• Sevenoaks-Charing Cross will additionally call at Lewisham

Any particular reason why these two services are swapping the Lewisham call?