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December 2022 Timetable Changes

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SeanM1997

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As per Post #94, it appears Crewe is to lose its non-stop London services:
1ph London - Scotland via Birmingham (additional call at Stafford)
1ph London - Chester (calling at Stafford)
1ph London - Manchester (calling at Stafford)
1ph London - Liverpool (calling at Milton Keynes Central)

Whilst this does increase Crewe-Stafford links (and connections to CrossCountry services), it doesn't improve Crewe's long haul connectivity.

Surely - a logical improvement would be for the 2nd London - Liverpool service to call at Crewe (since the 2nd LNWR Birmingham - Liverpool isn't coming back in a hurry) with a CrossCountry move from Macclesfield/Stoke to Wilmslow/Crewe, to allow for connections between Liverpool and the South of England, which is not possible now the Stafford calls are removed from the Liverpool services. This would also increase the Crewe-Birmingham service levels back to pre-COVID since the aforementioned 2nd LNWR Birmingham - Liverpool isn't coming back soon.
 

Bletchleyite

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Whilst this does increase Crewe-Stafford links (and connections to CrossCountry services), it doesn't improve Crewe's long haul connectivity.

What does the extra stop cost? 2 minutes?

Crewe does not in and of itself justify non stop to London. Crikey, if Manchester doesn't, Crewe definitely doesn't.

Surely - a logical improvement would be for the 2nd London - Liverpool service to call at Crewe (since the 2nd LNWR Birmingham - Liverpool isn't coming back in a hurry) with a CrossCountry move from Macclesfield/Stoke to Wilmslow/Crewe, to allow for connections between Liverpool and the South of England, which is not possible

Yes it is, change at Birmingham.
 

Agent_Squash

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As per Post #94, it appears Crewe is to lose its non-stop London services:
1ph London - Scotland via Birmingham (additional call at Stafford)
1ph London - Chester (calling at Stafford)
1ph London - Manchester (calling at Stafford)
1ph London - Liverpool (calling at Milton Keynes Central)

Whilst this does increase Crewe-Stafford links (and connections to CrossCountry services), it doesn't improve Crewe's long haul connectivity.

Surely - a logical improvement would be for the 2nd London - Liverpool service to call at Crewe (since the 2nd LNWR Birmingham - Liverpool isn't coming back in a hurry) with a CrossCountry move from Macclesfield/Stoke to Wilmslow/Crewe, to allow for connections between Liverpool and the South of England, which is not possible now the Stafford calls are removed from the Liverpool services. This would also increase the Crewe-Birmingham service levels back to pre-COVID since the aforementioned 2nd LNWR Birmingham - Liverpool isn't coming back soon.

Crewe is a small town that is only well known because of the railway. As @Bletchleyite says, it does not justify a direct service to London.

It only makes the journey a few minutes longer and vastly improves connectivity to the rest of the railway - which, ultimately, is Crewe's purpose as a station.
 

cle

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I agree - but I equally don't think Stafford needs the 3tph to London (one via Brum admittedly). Perhaps another different call could be accommodated instead. Ideally a Watford, if pathable.
 

Bletchleyite

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I agree - but I equally don't think Stafford needs the 3tph to London (one via Brum admittedly). Perhaps another different call could be accommodated instead. Ideally a Watford, if pathable.

It's effectively two for the reason you state. The one via Brum is a train to Brum that happens to continue to Euston. It'll be overtaken by the other Euston.
 

The Planner

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I agree - but I equally don't think Stafford needs the 3tph to London (one via Brum admittedly). Perhaps another different call could be accommodated instead. Ideally a Watford, if pathable.
Big catchment area for Stafford. 78 minutes non-stop. 105-110 from Wolves to Euston, it will take some of that market.
 

Watershed

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Big catchment area for Stafford. 78 minutes non-stop. 105-110 from Wolves to Euston, it will take some of that market.
Plus changing at Stafford will become the fastest route for Wolves-London even more of the time (though it depends on connections at Stafford). Though as you say, most people will just railhead to Stafford instead.

Perhaps the large multistorey car park will see proper use again!
 

paddy1

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I agree - but I equally don't think Stafford needs the 3tph to London (one via Brum admittedly). Perhaps another different call could be accommodated instead. Ideally a Watford, if pathable.
Will be 4tph if you include the LNWR, although that also gets overtaken by the non stop Avanti trains.
 

NewClee153

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Regarding the West Midlands changes, are the local services at New Street changing as part of the preparation for HS2, or will there be a further change again in a few years?

Smethwick Galton Bridge no longer has direct trains to International, although as it was only 1tph (Wales), I cannot see many passengers interchanging from Kidderminster/Stourbridge for the airport/NEC as they would drive (or taxi) via the M5 or M42 and M6.

Also, Kidderminster and Stourbridge to Shrewsbury and mid Wales passengers would most likely drive along the A449 to Wolverhampton to pick up a train there as it is the shortest route and does not involve changing trains.
The proposed changes to services between BHM and SGB as a whole are a joke. Like it or not, Smethwick Galton Bridge is a very useful interchange station. Why does Sandwell and Dudley require 2 services per hour to International, but SGB doesn’t get at least one.

They’ve sneakily also proposed removing the Liverpool - Birmingham calls from Smethwick Galton Bridge, and replaced it with a paltry Birmingham to Shrewsbury all shacks service.

So basically all mid/north wales direct connections will no longer be available, and to get to anywhere past WVH on that side of the WCML will require a change. I can’t see any of this going down well, and I would be willing to go to consultations and even protest to stop this from happening. It’s nothing short of a farce
 

Huntergreed

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Given that it is now more of a stopping London - Birmingham than an intercity express service, does anyone know if the slow Avanti IET from Euston to Birmingham will retain it’s pick up/set down restriction at Watford Junction?
 

HamworthyGoods

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Given that it is now more of a stopping London - Birmingham than an intercity express service, does anyone know if the slow Avanti IET from Euston to Birmingham will retain it’s pick up/set down restriction at Watford Junction?

Yes it will as the purpose of that train is not to convey passengers between Watford and Euston and v.v.
 

tel

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Living in Norwich I would love to see a revamp of London trains. At the moment it's Diss Stowm Ipswich Col Chelms Stratford and Liv St. Would love to see hourly Ips Col and Liv St and hourly previously said stns so we get a fast and a slow every hour. But hey what do I know.

Tel
 

Agent_Squash

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Living in Norwich I would love to see a revamp of London trains. At the moment it's Diss Stowm Ipswich Col Chelms Stratford and Liv St. Would love to see hourly Ips Col and Liv St and hourly previously said stns so we get a fast and a slow every hour. But hey what do I know.

Tel
Is skipping Stratford worth it considering all the connections?
 

dk1

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Living in Norwich I would love to see a revamp of London trains. At the moment it's Diss Stowm Ipswich Col Chelms Stratford and Liv St. Would love to see hourly Ips Col and Liv St and hourly previously said stns so we get a fast and a slow every hour. But hey what do I know.

Tel
That's almost what it was when it went half hourly in the early 2000s under Anglia Railways. Trains left Norwich at xx:00 & xx:40. Cant see Diss losing its twice hourly service now. You missed out Manningtree.
 

cle

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That's almost what it was when it went half hourly in the early 2000s under Anglia Railways. Trains left Norwich at xx:00 & xx:40. Cant see Diss losing its twice hourly service now. You missed out Manningtree.
There is probably 1tph which should be the classic Colchester - Ipswich - Diss - Norwich. And then another with Stowmarket and/or Manningtree - maybe one into each pattern. Stratford for one.

Chelmsford is probably for pathing. I don't think Chelmsford needs too much in the way of northbound connections, beyond Colchester. Not to Norwich specifically. It's heavily weighted the other way. But would need another London fast.
 

Johnny Lewis

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Living in Norwich I would love to see a revamp of London trains. At the moment it's Diss Stowm Ipswich Col Chelms Stratford and Liv St. Would love to see hourly Ips Col and Liv St and hourly previously said stns so we get a fast and a slow every hour. But hey what do I know.

Tel
You missed the fact that practically ALL Norwich InterCity services seem to be obliged to call at Manningtree, which I have never really understood. Even pre-Covid, any time I have been on a train calling at Manningtree, there's never been more than a handful of people getting on or off there!
 

dk1

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You missed the fact that practically ALL Norwich InterCity services seem to be obliged to call at Manningtree, which I have never really understood. Even pre-Covid, any time I have been on a train calling at Manningtree, there's never been more than a handful of people getting on or off there!
I can assure you that many services have very healthy loadings at Manningtree especially those that connect with the branch.
 

tel

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Yes missed Manningtree out DOH. Would love to see the trains from Norwich sped up. Ipswich and Colchester are the main calling points and most people from Norwich would be heading towards either or London it would make the Norwich to London service an attractive alternative to the car, and make sense for a fast and a slow. Manningtree would still have the twice an hour to London with the Ipswich service and also the occasional Harwich trains. Stratford is important too with the interchange and Westfield.
Would also love to see a through Norwich to King's Cross via Ely, but that's another story.
 

Techniquest

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I can assure you that many services have very healthy loadings at Manningtree especially those that connect with the branch.

My limited experience of the line agrees with you. I mostly travel off-peak in that area when I visit, which is not often enough, so I've seen a number of quiet trains when calling at Manningtree. The first one that came to mind was a pair of 720s on the 0926 I think from Ipswich to London last year, and I was near the back so the front part might have been busy. I've also noted a lot of busy trains. The first busy one that came to mind was a pair of 321s in the evening of the same day, pretty busy until Manningtree when it emptied out considerably. I recall waiting for said 321s at Colchester (on my way back from Clacton to Ipswich) and the preceding 745 was absolutely heaving. I was with my cycle, and no reservation on said 745, so it wasn't an option anyway. It was one I wanted as well, so the temptation had been very real to get on, until I saw the passenger numbers!

The proposed changes to services between BHM and SGB as a whole are a joke. Like it or not, Smethwick Galton Bridge is a very useful interchange station. Why does Sandwell and Dudley require 2 services per hour to International, but SGB doesn’t get at least one.

They’ve sneakily also proposed removing the Liverpool - Birmingham calls from Smethwick Galton Bridge, and replaced it with a paltry Birmingham to Shrewsbury all shacks service.

So basically all mid/north wales direct connections will no longer be available, and to get to anywhere past WVH on that side of the WCML will require a change. I can’t see any of this going down well, and I would be willing to go to consultations and even protest to stop this from happening. It’s nothing short of a farce

Yikes! I used Smethwick Galton Bridge yesterday for that exact purpose, interchanging from the Snow Hill lines to a Liverpool train. Removing said stop from the Liverpool-Birmingham and vice versa trains feels incredibly short-sighted to me, they're great at soaking up the crowds with pairs of 350s. Forcing passengers to use the all stations Shrewsbury services is going to decrease capacity for those travelling beyond Wolverhampton, which is grossly unfair.

This forthcoming change at Galton Bridge ranks as one of the most ludicrous I've seen this year.
 

dk1

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My limited experience of the line agrees with you. I mostly travel off-peak in that area when I visit, which is not often enough, so I've seen a number of quiet trains when calling at Manningtree. The first one that came to mind was a pair of 720s on the 0926 I think from Ipswich to London last year, and I was near the back so the front part might have been busy. I've also noted a lot of busy trains. The first busy one that came to mind was a pair of 321s in the evening of the same day, pretty busy until Manningtree when it emptied out considerably. I recall waiting for said 321s at Colchester (on my way back from Clacton to Ipswich) and the preceding 745 was absolutely heaving. I was with my cycle, and no reservation on said 745, so it wasn't an option anyway. It was one I wanted as well, so the temptation had been very real to get on, until I saw the passenger numbers!

The thing with Manningtree is maintaining branch connections in both directions & hence why more trains call. It’s often forgotten that there is a healthy passenger flow between Harwich & Ipswich. It’s not all centred on Colchester/London traffic. In fact during the 90s the hourly emu on the branch continued to Ipswich reversing in platform 2.
 

Bletchleyite

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The thing with Manningtree is maintaining branch connections in both directions & hence why more trains call. It’s often forgotten that there is a healthy passenger flow between Harwich & Ipswich. It’s not all centred on Colchester/London traffic. In fact during the 90s the hourly emu on the branch continued to Ipswich reversing in platform 2.

I think people are also forgetting that this is only an IC service for reasons of historical quirk. In a practical sense it's more like the LNR fast Northamptons calling at Bletchley, which all of them will from December, except that the Harwich branch is rather busier than the Marston Vale. Or the calling points on something like the Pompey Direct.
 

4-SUB 4732

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Connections to the branch occur only hourly, and with the Ipswich service as an ‘additional’, there is no need for a Manningtree call every 30 minutes.

The same applies to Stowmarket. Three local services every two hours (two-hourly Peterborough and hourly Cambridge) means that only needs an hourly call on the grounds that connections can be made.

Colchester is an odd one. I’d say half-hourly is entirely correct, but at the same time it has an array of suitable services to London and if you were able to extend the Cambridge service round there I’d actually call that a ‘win’. If you make sure the calling patterns of the legacy Great Eastern electric units are a bit better, aka providing an additional ‘fast’ every hour (decelerate the Ipswich and the Colchester Town, massively accelerate the Clacton) and you can probably argue for only an hourly Norwich service, assuming there’s another two an hour to Ipswich (Cambridge and legacy Eastern terminator).

Chelmsford is an obvious one not to bother with. Stratford I’d say now should be half-hourly, not least because of the masses of connections it offers.

So perhaps something from Liverpool Street in the order of:

- XX:00 Stratford, Colchester, Ipswich, Diss, Norwich.

- XX:03 Stratford, Romford, Shenfield, Ingatestone, Chelmsford, Hatfield Peverel, Witham, Kelvedon, Marks Tey, Colchester, Manningtree (now pretty much caught by the Norwich, meaning connection to Harwich but also a connection for Colchester punters onto the Norwich), Ipswich.

- XX:14 Stratford, Shenfield, Chelmsford, Witham, Colchester, stations to Clacton.

- XX:17 Stratford, Shenfield, stations to Southend.

- XX:30 Stratford, Manningtree (connection guaranteed to Harwich), Ipswich, Stowmarket, Diss, Norwich.

- XX:33 Stratford, Romford, Shenfield, Ingatestone, Chelmsford, Hatfield Peverel, Witham, stations to Braintree.

- XX:37 Stratford, Shenfield, stations to Southend.

- XX:44 Stratford, Shenfield, Chelmsford, Witham, Kelvedon, Marks Tey, Colchester, Colchester Town, stations to Walton on the Naze (hopefully then caught by the Clacton after making the smaller stops and therefore a sub-20 minute connection at Walton).

- XX:57 Stratford, Shenfield, stations to Southend.

That allows freight to leave in a healthy gap between, for example, the XX:03 - XX:14, XX:17 - XX:30, and XX:44 - XX:57 eastbound from Stratford, and if you build the timetable backwards into London you get the same result. If you can actually work on a parallel move over platforms 10 and 10a three times an hour the timetable will be very resilient, and there’s lots of regulating / pathing stops available. Ilford eastbound using the slow lines, Shenfield London-bound, Chelmsford eastbound, Witham, Marks Tey London-bound and Colchester. Bar London Gateway traffic almost entirely from the Great Eastern (or have an open 45mph path between Channelsea and Woodgrange Park every hour both ways) and you’re probably sorted.
 

SeanM1997

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When is CrossCountry's network review of the network - wasn't their speculation for CrossCountry reviewing their Manchester - Birmingham frequencies?
 

47421

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One issue on GE is that the 2016 franchise agreement was based on a timetable recast with standard time of 1hr45 or less for all the Liv St Norwich, allowing 2TPH covered by 8 diagrams, with one peak extra and one spare/maintenace, hence order of 10 745s with first class.

In reality that has never happened, the GE timetable recast they consulted on in 2021 had only small changes (they never published the actual proposed timetable, presumably because it was so uninspiring), but even that consultation was just forgotten and no changes ever happened. Not sure how they propose to resourse the Liv St Norwich service in the medium term. For now they can use the spare StanExp 745s, but if StanEXp goes back to 4TPH, that will be 9 diagrams, although perhaps they will use 720s on some/all StanExp
 

swt_passenger

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When is CrossCountry's network review of the network - wasn't their speculation for CrossCountry reviewing their Manchester - Birmingham frequencies?
There’s been regular speculation about separating out the XC Manchester - Birmingham trains, (usually into an EMU service), in these forums for years, but I don’t recall any similar official proposals by DfT or the TOC. (That’s thinking of the pre CoVid situation of course.)
 

Techniquest

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The thing with Manningtree is maintaining branch connections in both directions & hence why more trains call. It’s often forgotten that there is a healthy passenger flow between Harwich & Ipswich. It’s not all centred on Colchester/London traffic. In fact during the 90s the hourly emu on the branch continued to Ipswich reversing in platform 2.

I forgot to include it in my previous post, but isn't there a fairly decent size bit of railheading into Manningtree? I completely forget the name of the rather amazing and beautiful sounding area a little to the west of Manningtree, I want to say it's something-Valley, I recall it being somewhere ideal for tourism? I'd imagine there and plenty of other places use Manningtree as a local station too?

I just looked on Maps, Dedham Vale is what I was thinking of. Looks gorgeous, and definitely an area where I'd imagine a lot of people drive to/from Manningtree, increasing demand and requiring 2 ICs an hour.
 

dk1

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I forgot to include it in my previous post, but isn't there a fairly decent size bit of railheading into Manningtree? I completely forget the name of the rather amazing and beautiful sounding area a little to the west of Manningtree, I want to say it's something-Valley, I recall it being somewhere ideal for tourism? I'd imagine there and plenty of other places use Manningtree as a local station too?

I just looked on Maps, Dedham Vale is what I was thinking of. Looks gorgeous, and definitely an area where I'd imagine a lot of people drive to/from Manningtree, increasing demand and requiring 2 ICs an hour.
Yes it’s very close to Constables famous area for painting & used as a railhead for quite a large area.
 
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