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Deep tube stations with lifts vs escalators

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Scotrail12

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Just a general question - do you prefer the stations on the deep tube lines which have the lift/emergency stairs combo or the ones with the escalators?

It seems as if the stations with lifts/emergency stairs are all older and they haven't built any in years. Is that something to do with H&S? If they were to build new stations, for example on the proposed Northern or Bakerloo extensions, could they use lifts instead of escalators? Might make them a bit easier to build.
 
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Mcr Warrior

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Just a general question - do you prefer the stations on the deep tube lines which have the lift/emergency stairs combo or the ones with the escalators?

It seems as if the stations with lifts/emergency stairs are all older and they haven't built any in years. Is that something to do with H&S? If they were to build new stations, for example on the proposed Northern or Bakerloo extensions, could they use lifts instead of escalators? Might make them a bit easier to build.
Escalators normally preferred. Less claustrophobic than a lift.

Always a pain when a lift is out of service, and the emergency stairs have to be used.
 

Journeyman

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Lift technology is older than escalator technology, so all of the early Tube stations, i.e. those built up to and including the 1906 Yerkes stations, were all lift-only when built. Putting in escalators later on was obviously a huge job, as it required new shafts to be dug, and in some places it proved too difficult to do easily, hence why a number of smaller/quieter stations still don't have them.
 

Mojo

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FWIW, the original and very nearly selected plan for the new Northern line ticket hall on Cannon St/King William St associated with the Bank station capacity upgrade was for multiple lifts to be used as a primary means of access to the lower level. In the end a more conventional (for modern times) option was chosen with escalators and smaller lifts chosen.
 

Hadders

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Escalators have a larger capacity than lifts, hence their preferred use.
 

Hadders

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But lift-only stations were built before escalators were available.

Indeed and several were converted to escalators when they became available to increase capacity.
 

randyrippley

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Just a general question - do you prefer the stations on the deep tube lines which have the lift/emergency stairs combo or the ones with the escalators?

It seems as if the stations with lifts/emergency stairs are all older and they haven't built any in years. Is that something to do with H&S? If they were to build new stations, for example on the proposed Northern or Bakerloo extensions, could they use lifts instead of escalators? Might make them a bit easier to build.

Not older as stations, but the surface buildings may be.
A lot of the deep level stations were converted from lifts to escalators, but that almost inevitably meant the resiting of the surface buildings (lifts go vertical, escalators go laterally as well). At many of the converted stations the old surface buildings still exist, repurposed, often as shops or offices
 

Mikey C

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Not older as stations, but the surface buildings may be.
A lot of the deep level stations were converted from lifts to escalators, but that almost inevitably meant the resiting of the surface buildings (lifts go vertical, escalators go laterally as well). At many of the converted stations the old surface buildings still exist, repurposed, often as shops or offices
Retro fitting escalators is an expensive business, and disruptive to the neighbourhood as you need a few surface building requiring the acquisition and demolition of an existing building!

Was Angel in the early 90s the last station to be converted? That required a completely new entrance built under a new development around the corner from the old station building (which still exists as an emergency exit)
 

Bald Rick

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Put simply, to justify a new tube line or station you need a lot of demand. And to get that demand from platform to surface and vice versa you need a lot of vertical capacity. Escalators provide much more of it than lifts.
 

edwin_m

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The recently-built lines of the Barcelona metro only have lifts, along with other unusual features such as a very large tunnel with a horizontal divider and one track above the other. It's claimed to be much cheaper than more conventional arrangements.
 

Bald Rick

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The recently-built lines of the Barcelona metro only have lifts, along with other unusual features such as a very large tunnel with a horizontal divider and one track above the other. It's claimed to be much cheaper than more conventional arrangements.

It certainly is cheaper to build that way, it would be even cheaper to build two single platform tunnels above each other, slightly offset, with a single lift access. This is how some of London’s early tube stations were built. (Chancery Lane, and Waterloo Bakerloo line spring to mind).
 

edwin_m

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It certainly is cheaper to build that way, it would be even cheaper to build two single platform tunnels above each other, slightly offset, with a single lift access. This is how some of London’s early tube stations were built. (Chancery Lane, and Waterloo Bakerloo line spring to mind).
I think that's what they do in Barcelona but without the offset. I only had a brief visit but I seem to recall you pressed a different button in the lift depending on direction of travel. Isn't the reason for this layout on the Underground usually that the road above is too narrow, in the days when Underground lines stayed within the footprint of the highway?

Most of these Barcelona stations are probably far less busy than most of those in inner London. In fact it seemed almost deserted but it was going to the airport quite early on a Sunday.
 

Bald Rick

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I think that's what they do in Barcelona but without the offset. I only had a brief visit but I seem to recall you pressed a different button in the lift depending on direction of travel. Isn't the reason for this layout on the Underground usually that the road above is too narrow, in the days when Underground lines stayed within the footprint of the highway?

Most of these Barcelona stations are probably far less busy than most of those in inner London. In fact it seemed almost deserted but it was going to the airport quite early on a Sunday.

The road issue was part of it, as that avoided the need to buy off more property owners, which made it cheaper.

I was going to ask about Barca metro passenger numbers; unlikely to be at London levels I’d have thought. The trains are certainly shorter.

Also, the whole of line 9 (the newish one), not just the stations, is built with one tunnel and the lines stacked vertically. (One can only assume there was a nearby land reclamation project that needed a lot of spoil). Some of the busier stations do have escalators, but some of the stations are very deep and I suspect lifts are the only practical solution.
 

Mikey C

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Lifts can be quite annoying. I used to use Queensway a lot, and the lifts were rubbish ones Metronet put in, inappropriate for the heavy use on the Underground, and hence not very reliable

Even when working, as there were only 2 of them they tended to bunch like buses, so that instead of operating in different directions, they effectively ended up travelling together!
 

Taunton

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but some of the stations are very deep and I suspect lifts are the only practical solution.
The deepest stations in the world are consistently in Russia, both Moscow and St Petersburg, and they only have escalators, for some very substantial rises; the escalators run notably fast, and I've still timed them at up to three minutes top to bottom. It's common to see people reading newspapers on them while riding. They were of course built in Soviet times to double as air raid shelters.
Even when working, as there were only 2 of them they tended to bunch like buses, so that instead of operating in different directions, they effectively ended up travelling together!
This is dependent on the lift controller logic, there are ones which (try to) overcome this.

If not co-ordinated and working independently, a tendency to run together is expected - I recall an early exercise at university proving why this is so. The same reason applies to frequent service buses, as you mention, or even high frequency Metro services if you don't manage them specifically for this.
 
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edwin_m

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If not co-ordinated and working independently, a tendency to run together is expected - I recall an early exercise at university proving why this is so. The same reason applies to frequent service buses, as you mention, or even high frequency Metro services if you don't manage them specifically for this.
Basically people arrive at an even rate, so if they aren't evenly spaced the one with the longer interval before it collects more people and takes longer to load and unload, so exacerbating the uneven interval.
 
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Also, the whole of line 9 (the newish one), not just the stations, is built with one tunnel and the lines stacked vertically. (One can only assume there was a nearby land reclamation project that needed a lot of spoil).

I think the idea behind it was that the running tunnel was big enough to accommodate the station platforms, so no need for cut-and-cover boxes or the traditional London deep tube approach of enlarging the running tunnel for the length of the platform using mining methods. Whether the advantages outweigh the drawbacks of all that additional excavation is another matter...
 

PeterC

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It certainly is cheaper to build that way, it would be even cheaper to build two single platform tunnels above each other, slightly offset, with a single lift access. This is how some of London’s early tube stations were built. (Chancery Lane, and Waterloo Bakerloo line spring to mind).
Which is why the current entrance to Chancery Lane Station in so far from Chancery Lane.
 

plugwash

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Wouldn’t new stations be built with both to satisfy disability laws?
Yes, the newest stations will be built with lifts and level access* to cover disability laws and with escalators to handle the large volume of people. This can lead to long corridors as lifts go vertically while escalators go at an angle.

Relatively little of TFLs network is new enough to have been built to modern disabled access standards. Mostly the Jubilee line extension, the trams. the DLR and a handful of stations that have been upgraded/rebuilt.

* As I understand it many of the old stations had lifts, but the lifts did not always go all the way from street level to platform level.
 

peteb

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Much prefer escalators I used to commute from Highgate (escalators) then moved to Hampstead and both Belsize Park and Hampstead had lifts so long commuter waits to go up in the evening. Preferred to use stairs going down in the morning till the knee gave way!
 

peteb

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Escalators, though if I find myself in a station with lifts then I use the occasion to get some exercise up the emergency stairs.
Agreed. I can only go up now, dodgy knee prevents descent!
 
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