Delay Repay claims rejected

[py_megapixel]

The Avanti portal only allows you to upload one ticket image. If you uploaded a picture of your train ticket, then uploaded a picture of the upgrade, the picture of the upgrade has deleted the picture of the ticket, in which case the staff can only see the picture of your upgrade, which isn't a valid ticket by itself. Ticket images need to be combined into one image and uploaded as one file.

These kinds of things are quite common problems. They're also stupid, and clearly just yet another example of the many ways TOCs seek to deter passengers from claiming. There is no technical reason why they could not permit the upload of multiple files.

Personally, I would suggest anyone who experiences such things not to pander to them and just to claim using the paper form instead. All TOCs have them, though Avanti, Northern, LNER and CrossCountry seemingly make you pick one up from a station rather than providing a PDF on the website (which, again, there is no technical reason for them not to do, and it's a blatant attempt to deter people from it)

 

[davews]

SWR do allow multiple ticket images - provided you give each of them a separate file name you can upload as many as you like.

 

[Hadders]

Why do you need to upload multiple files? When I make a claim where a combination of tickets has been used I simply lay the tickets out and take one photo of the whole lot. I input one of the ticket numbers - never failed yet.

 

[ta-toget]

Why do you need to upload multiple files? When I make a claim where a combination of tickets has been used I simply lay the tickets out and take one photo of the whole lot. I input one of the ticket numbers - never failed yet.

One might need to do so if one were to have a combination of tickets on a variety of media (for example, one CCST and one unprinted e-Ticket). Obviously it is possible to combine them into one file, including by printing the e-Ticket, but it's easier to upload multiple files in this instance.

 

[Grumpy Git]

These kinds of things are quite common problems. They're also stupid, and clearly just yet another example of the many ways TOCs seek to deter passengers from claiming. There is no technical reason why they could not permit the upload of multiple files.

Personally, I would suggest anyone who experiences such things not to pander to them and just to claim using the paper form instead. All TOCs have them, though Avanti, Northern, LNER and CrossCountry seemingly make you pick one up from a station rather than providing a PDF on the website (which, again, there is no technical reason for them not to do, and it's a blatant attempt to deter people from it)

I agree, it's blatant profiteering nothing more, (much like government "cronyism" is corruption and nothing less, but I digress)!

 

[js1000]

Seems as if a lot of TOCs are "testing" the legalities of the Delay Repay system and beating passenger claims into submission to deter them claiming. Will be interesting to see how long this continues for.

The way I see it is that it's their risk at the end of the day. If enough evidence is accumulated and enough passengers bothered by this a class action could be brought and passengers owned millions in compensation.

The real risk for TOCs is that it is already a well-established perception that most passengers who do bother claiming DR because they perceive the process as complicated or having to "jump through hoops" to claim money back for delays/cancellations.

Clearly any obfuscation or "testing" of the DR process by TOCs plays into claimants hands beautifully and could potentially claim on their behalf through a class action if there is a solid case that TOCs have sought to deliberately deter DR claims.

It's all rather odd because most passengers who suffer delays/cancellations don't claim Delay Repay so why TOCs would to jeopardise many more millions is beyond me. They should sit down and take their punishment when providing a sub-par service instead of trying to outsmart the system.

 

[py_megapixel]

Why do you need to upload multiple files? When I make a claim where a combination of tickets has been used I simply lay the tickets out and take one photo of the whole lot. I input one of the ticket numbers - never failed yet.

Well most of the forms have angry warnings about prosecution for misuse of the form, which is probably enough to make passengers feel uptight about not providing all the information

A better question is what reason do TOCs have not to permit it?

 

[35B]

Well most of the forms have angry warnings about prosecution for misuse of the form, which is probably enough to make passengers feel uptight about not providing all the information

A better question is what reason do TOCs have not to permit it?

I suspect the real issue is that the forms are poorly designed and put together, and that the website builders have taken the easiest path when building them - bearing in mind that if they allow multiple uploads, they then have to design the back end of the system to cope with linking multiple files to the case. That's potentially a different technical approach, and requires more care to achieve.

My strong suspicion is that the specifications are poorly prepared, and haven't properly considered the full range of cases that might be required, and then developers have built off that simple scenario. It's poor, but it's poor because there's no incentive - and quite a few disincentives - to making it better.

Personally, I've access to software that allows me to stitch multiple pictures together into a single file upload, so my way round is to prepare the submission that way; it works for me but shouldn't be necessary.

 

[Haywain]

The real issue is that overall a tiny percentage of rail users are using multiple tickets for their journeys. The web forms have been designed with the vast majority in mind and it is not some sort of conspiracy to deny payments to the few who can’t find a way of submitting their claims.

Personally, I've access to software that allows me to stitch multiple pictures together into a single file upload, so my way round is to prepare the submission that way; it works for me but shouldn't be necessary.

Like Microsoft Word?

 

[py_megapixel]

The real issue is that overall a tiny percentage of rail users are using multiple tickets for their journeys. The web forms have been designed with the vast majority in mind and it is not some sort of conspiracy to deny payments to the few who can’t find a way of submitting their claims.

If the train companies actually wanted to pay people claims, then there are many trivial things they could do to make the process much more streamlined. This is just one of them.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Are train companies able to 'game' the system, when delays occur which are not their fault, by maxing the amount of delay compensation claimed from another (at fault) train company (or from Network Rail) and then minimizing the amount which is then paid out to affected passengers?

 

[Haywain]

If the train companies actually wanted to pay people claims, then there are many trivial things they could do to make the process much more streamlined. This is just one of them.

There may be room for improvements but this is low on the list. As a number of other posters have said it is quite simple to submit claims for multiple tickets.

Are train companies able to 'game' the system, when delays occur which are not their fault, by maxing the amount of delay compensation claimed from another (at fault) train company (or from Network Rail) and then minimizing the amount which is then paid out to affected passengers?

They are two unrelated matters.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Are train companies able to 'game' the system, when delays occur which are not their fault, by maxing the amount of delay compensation claimed from another (at fault) train company (or from Network Rail) and then minimizing the amount which is then paid out to affected passengers?

They are two unrelated matters.

Would still be interesting to know, in the broadest terms, just how the money might be due in to a train company as a result of one of their trains being delayed, compared with the fare revenue received from the passengers onboard, and what's then potentially payable out as Delay Repay.

For example, a trainload of 100 passengers each having paid £10, for single tickets, for a journey that has been delayed by 60+ minutes due to a points failure.

(Appreciate that this may be out of scope as regards this particular thread topic).

 

[Haywain]

Would still be interesting to know, in the broadest terms, just how the money might be due in to a train company as a result of one of their trains being delayed, compared with the fare revenue received from the passengers onboard, and what's then potentially payable out as Delay Repay.

For example, a trainload of 100 passengers each having paid £10, for single tickets, for a journey that has been delayed by 60+ minutes due to a points failure.

(Appreciate that this may be out of scope as regards this particular thread topic).

Completely out of scope here. However, it also works the other way, in that a train operator can be responsible for a delay and having to pay out to other operators as well as their own passengers. But that doesn't carry the same narrative, does it?

 

[35B]

The real issue is that overall a tiny percentage of rail users are using multiple tickets for their journeys. The web forms have been designed with the vast majority in mind and it is not some sort of conspiracy to deny payments to the few who can’t find a way of submitting their claims.


Like Microsoft Word?

That would work - though not my first port of call.

 

[Haywain]

That would work - though not my first port of call.

Just pointing out it doesn't need specialist software.

 

[py_megapixel]

Just pointing out it doesn't need specialist software.

It shouldn't need any software beyond a web browser, because the website should just accept the bl**dy file!

 

[arb]

Fixing the root cause of the problem so that you can upload multiple images may well be low on the list, and that's fair enough.

But what's to stop them adding a simple piece of text next to the image upload box saying "only upload one image, if you have multiple tickets or seat reservations please take one photo containing all the tickets and upload that".

 

[bubieyehyeh]

The biggest issue for me with GTR delay repay website, is it only has a free text field for some options, and when its does it limited to 255 characters, which is not enough to explain complex claims.

 

[35B]

The biggest issue for me with GTR delay repay website, is it only has a free text field for some options, and when its does it limited to 255 characters, which is not enough to explain complex claims.

At that point, my technique is to write a covering letter which is then part of what I upload in the scanned image.

 

[GALLANTON]

Scotrail do too.

Does anyone know if these companies have set their ticket gates to always return tickets, or do they retain them at the end of the journey?

I recall LNER used to set the gates at KGX to return tickets but a few years ago that changed, which caught people out!

I opt for e-tickets these days to avoid the many issues with paper tickets (see separate thread!) but sometimes paper tickets are the only option. I am in the habit of photographing my tickets before the end of the journey, in case of delays (or expense claims) however it seems absurd for companies to retain the tickets in the machines and then tell passengers they are acting wrongly!

ScotRail gates don't return tickets at the end of a journey. For example, if you buy a ticket from Hyndland to Glasgow Queen St/Central and use the barriers the outbound ticket will stay in the machine. However, there seems to be a recurring theme where tickets don't always work in the barriers and it spits it back out at you and you then have to get the gateline staff to let you out.

 

[island]

Worse than that, some tickets are retained even when they have further validity. For example, a ticket from Leuchars to Edinburgh will be retained at Haymarket.

Barrier staff will have no problem letting you through if you ask to retain your ticket for DelayRepay purposes, but it’s best to ask first rather than putting the ticket in and it ending up in the capture bin.

 

[Kite159]

Transport for Wales doesn't understand ranger tickets.

A couple weeks ago I was delayed on two separate times due to late running in the morning missing a connection & a cancellation in the evening. Both times generating an hour delay.

Evening one was paid out but the morning one has been refused as the "ticket has already been used"

Will appeal it later


---------

That TfW rail claim was paid quickly on appeal

Currently having issues with West Midlands Trains trying to suggest a journey made using a ranger to a station which was delayed by around 35 minutes is linked to a journey in the opposite direction an hour later after having a catch-up with an old friend which was also delayed due to the Snow Hill lines collapsing.

Given up with the automatic system and raised a complaint as that's the only way I can see it getting resolved using the online system

 

[Super Hans]

But what's to stop them adding a simple piece of text next to the image upload box saying "only upload one image, if you have multiple tickets or seat reservations please take one photo containing all the tickets and upload that"

 

[trebor79]

I submitted a claim to EMR yesterday. I stupidly didn't note the reference number as I assumed I'd get an email to confirm it had been received, but no email has arrived - I'm sure they sued to send an email with the reference number.
I think yesterday was the last day of the 28 day limit.
Is there a way to check the status of my claim if I don't have the reference number? I suspect I will have to appeal it as it was split tickets and I don't take the route that journey planners suggest for the journey (because of where the split point is, even though the journey time is the same on either route).

I do find it rather cumbersome, especially when dealing with split ticketing. "Enter the ticket number". I have 2 (or more), so do I pick one at random?
I usually photograph all the tickets together on a piece of paper with "Claiming under combined tickets under NRCoT condition 14" which does seem to have reduced the need for me to appeal false rejections.
I think las time they only paid out one leg of the split but I really couldn't be bothered to argue for the sake of ten quid.

I opt for e-tickets these days to avoid the many issues with paper tickets (see separate thread!) but sometimes paper tickets are the only option. I am in the habit of photographing my tickets before the end of the journey, in case of delays (or expense claims) however it seems absurd for companies to retain the tickets in the machines and then tell passengers they are acting wrongly!

I prefer paper tickets and if delayed just ask the gate line staff to open the gate for me as I need to retain my ticket. Never had an issue.

 

[Super Hans]

I submitted a claim to EMR yesterday. I stupidly didn't note the reference number as I assumed I'd get an email to confirm it had been received, but no email has arrived - I'm sure they sued to send an email with the reference number.
I think yesterday was the last day of the 28 day limit.
Is there a way to check the status of my claim if I don't have the reference number? I suspect I will have to appeal it as it was split tickets and I don't take the route that journey planners suggest for the journey (because of where the split point is, even though the journey time is the same on either route).

I do find it rather cumbersome, especially when dealing with split ticketing. "Enter the ticket number". I have 2 (or more), so do I pick one at random?
I usually photograph all the tickets together on a piece of paper with "Claiming under combined tickets under NRCoT condition 14" which does seem to have reduced the need for me to appeal false rejections.
I think las time they only paid out one leg of the split but I really couldn't be bothered to argue for the sake of ten quid.


I prefer paper tickets and if delayed just ask the gate line staff to open the gate for me as I need to retain my ticket. Never had an issue.

There is an option to add your journey manually if it doesn't show on the suggested journeys. All tickets should be paid out as if it were one, providing you have provided all tickets into a single combined image, since you can only upload one image.

Strange that there was no email confirmation though, it would seem that if you didn't get any kind of email confirmation that you didn't actually submit it.

 

[800001]

LNER do not control the gates at Kings Cross, and they do not retain tickets. GTR did briefly set them to retain tickets some years ago but this was changed again fairly quickly because of ongoing validity to Moorgate.

Since when do lner not control the gates? It is there staff that operate the barriers

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Is Kings Cross not a Network Rail managed station?

 

[Haywain]

Since when do lner not control the gates? It is there staff that operate the barriers

LNER staff the gates but do not control the gate logic.

 

[robbeech]

EMR and Hull Trains both at it.

Brushed over this one As an example in an EMR related DR topic more recently. A month back a rejection from EMR when a service between Nottingham and Manchester was cancelled meaning a delay of an hour on a London to Manchester (route via Chesterfield is it?).
Initially rejected with their current favourite fob off “ticket used in a claim already”. A classic I’m sure you’ll agree.
upon appeal they rejected because the train didn’t exist.
An email to CS with them dragging out the time to the very last day before each reply. Asking for photos of tickets they already had, then waiting 20 days to reply saying thankyou, we can’t find your journey, then waiting 20 days to reply to my repeat of all the details they had twice.
Eventually after a small brush over the topic of the ombudsman they agreed (after 20 more days) to pay, within 10 days, which did finally go it only account on The 11th day.

Hull Cons (Trains) are clearly joining in with the cost saving exercises.
missed connection causing me to be stranded and delayed hike by 120+ minutes. (Wasn’t actually stranded as I know the numbers of local taxi firms and can afford to pay for them but others will not be in that position).
Asks for photo of ticket but then asks for ticket number. When you enter a ticket number it tells you they have found the ticket and I no longer need to upload a photo of it. Of course, I’m skeptical because “the railway” and of course I was right to be. Rejected outright, more information needed, forced to upload the photo on appeal. More info given on appeal (no free text box is present initially because they just reject everything so there’s no point). 20 day wait anticipated but it’s only been 5 before another rejection.

Customer services say delay repay doesn’t apply if you miss a connection. It goes only on the delay to their train. Looking forward to a second visit to court with HT. the last one saw them leave with their tail between their legs.