Delay Repay claims rejected

[Haywain]

For clarity, the TOC that caused the initial delay

Not necessarily. If a journey involves two trains, the first is late but does not cause a missed connection and the second train is the also delayed to an extent that triggers DR, then the claim is from the operator of the second train as that has caused the delay to the journey.

 

[MotCO]

Not necessarily. If a journey involves two trains, the first is late but does not cause a missed connection and the second train is the also delayed to an extent that triggers DR, then the claim is from the operator of the second train as that has caused the delay to the journey.

And we wonder why passengers are confused

 

[Deltic1961]

The one thing this proves is that even today the UK rail system is fragile and unreliable.

 

[SteveM70]

Not necessarily. If a journey involves two trains, the first is late but does not cause a missed connection and the second train is the also delayed to an extent that triggers DR, then the claim is from the operator of the second train as that has caused the delay to the journey.

Yes, you’re right. I was trying in a cack-handed way to point out that the train which ultimately causes someone to arrive 15+ minutes late doesn’t itself have to breach the DR threshold

 

[island]

I had return fares to South Wales purchased from Southern but involved three TOCs on the journeys....Southern, GWR & TFW.

Southern have emailed declining me stating the outbound delay was down to GWR & the return TFW & they have forwarded my claims to both GWR & TFW who would respond within 20 days (it’s now 30 & nothing)

I would have thought like any purchase my ‘contract’ is with the seller (Southern) irrespective other TOCs involved within the journey so shouldn’t Southern be responsible for the Delay Repay? Or am I wrong?

Your contract is in fact with all of the TOCs who could have carried you on your journey, and a claim for compensation goes to the first TOC who caused you to incur a delay.

 

[robbeech]

OK, but the passenger does not have a ticket for his entire journey, that’s the academic point under discussion.

Of course it’s unnecessarily hostile to reject on such a technicality, and doing so would always be bad service, but you can really only claim on split tickets if you have tickets for the entire journey.

I assume this is at least partially automated and as we know automated systems are tailored to reject.

Not necessarily. If a journey involves two trains, the first is late but does not cause a missed connection and the second train is the also delayed to an extent that triggers DR, then the claim is from the operator of the second train as that has caused the delay to the journey.

Indeed, although the argument is the first operator didn’t actually delay you if you’ve defined your journey before you start it as you should.

 

[trainophile]

Just had a tenner back from Avanti, pleasantly surprised as they only emailed me yesterday saying they agreed my claim. Was 11 minutes late back from Glasgow to Lancaster on 1st Dec, which caused a missed connection to Morecambe and meant we were eventually over half an hour late. I am usually satisfied with the way Avanti handle delay repay claims, unlike West Midlands for whom I am now into the sixth week and waiting...

 

[ServerHoster]

Got a delay repay denied by Northern yesterday:

Preston to Northwich (split ticketing at Mouldsworth)

Preston-Crewe cancelled so I got an earlier train. The earlier train I got Preston-Crewe was meant to go fast from Warrington but they put Crewe on as an extra stop due to the cancelled train. The earlier train was about 20 mins late so roughly the same time as my original train anyway. Made my connection perfectly ok.
Crewe-Chester slightly late but still 5 mins before my original connection.
Chester-Northwich cancelled, next one an hour later.

Northern denied it, said it was Avanti's fault.

Got an update from Northern’s twitter today.

“Hi there. Our Delay Repay team have looked into your case and confirmed that when calculating repayments they use the original planned journey and the next available service after any cancellation. This would mean that Avanti would be the liable TOC for this. They have also confirmed that this has been passed on to the Avanti Delay Repay team and they will be in touch once this has been considered. I'm sorry for the hassle and confusion here. ^KW”

 

[robbeech]

Got an update from Northern’s twitter today.

“Hi there. Our Delay Repay team have looked into your case and confirmed that when calculating repayments they use the original planned journey and the next available service after any cancellation. This would mean that Avanti would be the liable TOC for this. They have also confirmed that this has been passed on to the Avanti Delay Repay team and they will be in touch once this has been considered. I'm sorry for the hassle and confusion here. ^KW”

And what do we suspect Avanti will say I wonder ?

 

[Snow1964]

Your contract is in fact with all of the TOCs who could have carried you on your journey, and a claim for compensation goes to the first TOC who caused you to incur a delay.

It’s all very confusing, as most websites seem to indicate a percentage scale depending on your arrival delay at final destination, which implies the last one in the chain is only one that knows when you arrived.

We are currently in dispute over this, as delay meant getting local train hour later ( they run hourly), which arrived 2 minutes late, so total delay was 62 minutes. Getting a 2 minute delay included seems to be troublesome especially when that train subsequently caught up time.

At the moment seems to be bouncing between GWR and Cross Country, regarding if delay was over an hour. Not a very customer friendly process where customer has to wait or chase up

 

[yorkie]

Got an update from Northern’s twitter today.

“Hi there. Our Delay Repay team have looked into your case and confirmed that when calculating repayments they use the original planned journey and the next available service after any cancellation. This would mean that Avanti would be the liable TOC for this. They have also confirmed that this has been passed on to the Avanti Delay Repay team and they will be in touch once this has been considered. I'm sorry for the hassle and confusion here. ^KW”

Northern Twitter are absolutely clueless and often get it wrong (and they don't like being corrected!) so this is no surprise.

If Northern refuse to pay out, your next step is the Rail Ombudsman ( https://www.railombudsman.org/making-a-complaint/start-a-complaint/ ); you are welcome to create a new thread here if you require any further advice.

I had return fares to South Wales purchased from Southern but involved three TOCs on the journeys....Southern, GWR & TFW.

Southern have emailed declining me stating the outbound delay was down to GWR & the return TFW & they have forwarded my claims to both GWR & TFW who would respond within 20 days (it’s now 30 & nothing)

I would have thought like any purchase my ‘contract’ is with the seller (Southern) irrespective other TOCs involved within the journey so shouldn’t Southern be responsible for the Delay Repay? Or am I wrong?

I suggest you create a new thread, detailing both your planned itinerary and the actual timings and any other relevant details regarding what happened on the day; we can then advise accordingly.

As others have said the claim goes to the company whose train was cancelled or delayed which caused the initial delay; usually it is obvious which company that was, but there can be edge cases where it's not clear. We can assist with this once we know more information about your journey.

Yes, you’re right. I was trying in a cack-handed way to point out that the train which ultimately causes someone to arrive 15+ minutes late doesn’t itself have to breach the DR threshold

Yes, what matters is how delayed the customer is, at their final destination.

 

[MalaiseForever]

unlike West Midlands for whom I am now into the sixth week and waiting...

If their strategy is to delay and delay on delay repay compensation in the hope that passengers give up… well it worked on me, I gave up.

 

[robbeech]

If their strategy is to delay and delay on delay repay compensation in the hope that passengers give up… well it worked on me, I gave up.

Indeed this is the overall plan when it comes to anything like this on the railway. And it is a roaring success.

 

[gray1404]

Got a current one with Avanti. Delay at final destination was 60 minutes exactly. RTT what's showing at 59 minutes and Avanti are only paying out on 59 minutes. However by the time the train came to a stop in The platform and the doors opened it was exactly a 60 minutes delay. Initial delay repay claim was paid out only on one of the tickets (not the split) for a 59 minute delay. On appeal they paid out on both of the tickets (the split tickets) but again only for a 59 minute delay.

I complained to customer service and I heard back today but they reiterated that they checked their train running records and it was only a 59 minutes delay. I have therefore responded to them reiterating my position that it was a 60 minute delay by the time the train came to a stop and the doors were opened. I have asked for my complaint to be reviewed by a Manager now as I understand this to be the next stage in the process before going to the Rail Ombudsman. They continue to ignore the explanation I have given them since the appeal stage and complaint as to why it was a 60 minute delay.

I actually see no point going to the Ombudsman as I know if Avanti do not relent following a Managerial Review than the Ombudsman will just repeat the useless explanation Avanti are giving that they have made the correct decision already.

 

[Kite159]

Got a current one with Avanti. Delay at final destination was 60 minutes exactly. RTT what's showing at 59 minutes and Avanti are only paying out on 59 minutes. However by the time the train came to a stop in The platform and the doors opened it was exactly a 60 minutes delay. Initial delay repay claim was paid out only on one of the tickets (not the split) for a 59 minute delay. On appeal they paid out on both of the tickets (the split tickets) but again only for a 59 minute delay.

I complained to customer service and I heard back today but they reiterated that they checked their train running records and it was only a 59 minutes delay. I have therefore responded to them reiterating my position that it was a 60 minute delay by the time the train came to a stop and the doors were opened. I have asked for my complaint to be reviewed by a Manager now as I understand this to be the next stage in the process before going to the Rail Ombudsman. They continue to ignore the explanation I have given them since the appeal stage and complaint as to why it was a 60 minute delay.

I actually see no point going to the Ombudsman as I know if Avanti do not relent following a Managerial Review than the Ombudsman will just repeat the useless explanation Avanti are giving that they have made the correct decision already.

The usual "it was only 59 minutes late when the train entered the signalling block regardless of the fact that it takes a minute for the train to stop and doors to get released depending on operator and how long the train is"

Sadly First Group lack the customer goodwill to take things into account which could make the difference between someone using their services again.

 

[SteveM70]

Got a current one with Avanti. Delay at final destination was 60 minutes exactly. RTT what's showing at 59 minutes and Avanti are only paying out on 59 minutes. However by the time the train came to a stop in The platform and the doors opened it was exactly a 60 minutes delay. Initial delay repay claim was paid out only on one of the tickets (not the split) for a 59 minute delay. On appeal they paid out on both of the tickets (the split tickets) but again only for a 59 minute delay.

I complained to customer service and I heard back today but they reiterated that they checked their train running records and it was only a 59 minutes delay. I have therefore responded to them reiterating my position that it was a 60 minute delay by the time the train came to a stop and the doors were opened. I have asked for my complaint to be reviewed by a Manager now as I understand this to be the next stage in the process before going to the Rail Ombudsman. They continue to ignore the explanation I have given them since the appeal stage and complaint as to why it was a 60 minute delay.

I actually see no point going to the Ombudsman as I know if Avanti do not relent following a Managerial Review than the Ombudsman will just repeat the useless explanation Avanti are giving that they have made the correct decision already.

If you were to let us know the station and platform, would anyone on here be knowledgeable enough to advise where exactly the “arrival” time is triggered from, enabling you to demonstrate their data doesn’t reflect the customer experience?

(Although they would still probably reject your appeal)

 

[trainophile]

It would make sense if in e.g. the above situation there was a payment for 45 minutes late. If they can do it for 15 minutes surely it's not beyond the system's capabilities to put an extra tier in. It wouldn't hurt quite so much if you're only losing 25% of your compensation, and would avoid a lot of admin as per above, as most people would settle for that (unless it's a seriously expensive ticket!). I wouldn't quibble over a fiver, possibly even a tenner to save the hassle.

 

[MotCO]

It would make sense if in e.g. the above situation there was a payment for 45 minutes late. If they can do it for 15 minutes surely it's not beyond the system's capabilities to put an extra tier in. It wouldn't hurt quite so much if you're only losing 25% of your compensation, and would avoid a lot of admin as per above, as most people would settle for that (unless it's a seriously expensive ticket!). I wouldn't quibble over a fiver, possibly even a tenner to save the hassle.

I'm not sure if that would help too much - if a train was 45 minutes late before the doors released, RTT would only be showing 44 minutes etc. There will always be a minute's lag. The better option is to pay out on RTT + 1 minute.

 

[gray1404]

If you were to let us know the station and platform, would anyone on here be knowledgeable enough to advise where exactly the “arrival” time is triggered from, enabling you to demonstrate their data doesn’t reflect the customer experience?

(Although they would still probably reject your appeal)

Liverpool Lime Street. I can't remember the platform number but I was a lighting from an ex Blackpool North service on one of the lower numbered platforms (having been delayed with a Avanti coming from Glasgow via Preston).

 

[robbeech]

Isn’t there supposed to be a tolerance added to compensate for this signal block / track circuit timing points issue. I thought that this issue only occurred when there was a notable delay releasing the doors.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Isn’t there supposed to be a tolerance added to compensate for this signal block / track circuit timing points issue. I thought that this issue only occurred when there was a notable delay releasing the doors.

Yes. There are detailed 'berthing offsets' listed in 'margin books'.

 

[Elecman]

Yes. There are detailed 'berthing offsets' listed in 'margin books'.

But apparently ignored by many TOCS who just use the timing shown of the berth occupation

 

[_toommm_]

But apparently ignored by many TOCS who just use the timing shown of the berth occupation

I saw an exchange on Twitter where a passenger argued this very point. Tom (the guy behind RTT) showed that the berth offset wasn’t correct at a particular station.

If you unroll this Twitter thread, it’s in there somewhere:

https://twitter.com/travelling_wolf/status/1458144347749294083?s=21

 

[AlterEgo]

I'm not sure if that would help too much - if a train was 45 minutes late before the doors released, RTT would only be showing 44 minutes etc. There will always be a minute's lag. The better option is to pay out on RTT + 1 minute.

Entirely sensible, though I’d move it to +2 to be absolutely sure.

 

[Bungle965]

Semi on-topic but I’ve just failed to be able to complete the TPE delay repay form as the station (Soham) hasn’t been added to it!

 

[Class800]

Semi on-topic but I’ve just failed to be able to complete the TPE delay repay form as the station (Soham) hasn’t been added to it!

You could be waiting quite a while - Cranbrook was not added to the SWR form for months, you had to select Whimple - they said that was what to do.

 

[Bungle965]

You could be waiting quite a while - Cranbrook was not added to the SWR form for months, you had to select Whimple - they said that was what to do.

Their twitter team gave me a delay repay email address as first trying to fob me off with web support so I guess we’ll see how long it takes.
I’m now wondering whether it would have been easier to whack in Ely in the form like you say with Cranbrook.

 

[Dibbo4025]

But apparently ignored by many TOCS who just use the timing shown of the berth occupation

I'd be incredibly surprised if that's the case - most likely they use the times from TRUST which feeds a lot of systems and includes the offsets in the times reported. To see what they see just look at any site other than RTT that reports train running (I believe RTT uses its own custom offsets hence the times it reports can vary from the official version)

There are some problems with the official offsets, some of them are quite old and power doors and modern defensive driving do slow than station arrivals from older stock. Added to that, updating the very large number of them is a huge task and TOCs are not that likely to spot an offset which is reporting them arriving early - even errors the other way round, reporting later than actual arrival, are not easy to see and require a decent amount of work to show and get updated, just for one offset.

But I'd agree, especially as TRUST rounds down to a whole minute, that allowing 1' leeway in delay repay would solve a lot of issues and just be good customer service, but as with everything, it's very much not a conspiracy to pay out less, and more just a result of training and using data systems for purposes beyond those they were designed for

 

[gray1404]

Got a current one with Avanti. Delay at final destination was 60 minutes exactly. RTT what's showing at 59 minutes and Avanti are only paying out on 59 minutes. However by the time the train came to a stop in The platform and the doors opened it was exactly a 60 minutes delay. Initial delay repay claim was paid out only on one of the tickets (not the split) for a 59 minute delay. On appeal they paid out on both of the tickets (the split tickets) but again only for a 59 minute delay.

I complained to customer service and I heard back today but they reiterated that they checked their train running records and it was only a 59 minutes delay. I have therefore responded to them reiterating my position that it was a 60 minute delay by the time the train came to a stop and the doors were opened. I have asked for my complaint to be reviewed by a Manager now as I understand this to be the next stage in the process before going to the Rail Ombudsman. They continue to ignore the explanation I have given them since the appeal stage and complaint as to why it was a 60 minute delay.

I actually see no point going to the Ombudsman as I know if Avanti do not relent following a Managerial Review than the Ombudsman will just repeat the useless explanation Avanti are giving that they have made the correct decision already.

Received a reply today from the SAME advisor at Avanti West Coast Customer Resolutions. She totally ignored my request for my case to be reviewed by a Manager nor my explanation that by the time the train came to a stop at the platform and the doors released the delay was 60 minutes. She merely repeated the position that the delay was 59 minutes and provided a link to the said service on Recent Train Times. I have responded once more stating my position and asking for a Manager to review the case.

 

[Aaron1]

On 21/11 I submitted a claim to LNER, it is now working days since that and I am still to receive an answer from them and we are now at 30 working days, however on 08/12 they did request further info which I had supplied to them within 30 minutes of receiving their email asking for further info, I make it 17 working days since I supplied the additional info, it is a simple claim so I don't understand why it is taking so long. If I haven't heard anything by Monday next week I will be chasing it up via twitter.