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Delays due to "train cancellations"

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Snow1964

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Correct - only one SCL2 is available on Saturday so services are quite rightly being focussed at the top end of the Met.

It’s even more confusing as the Bakerloo line entry mentions a bus, seems to refer to Preston Road for Metropolitan, and then suggests only running 10:00 to 19:00. But also says no Overground Euston-Watford. Here is the actual wording (TfL grammar)

BAKERLOO LINE: Saturday 27 and Sunday 28 March, no service between Queens Park and Harrow & Wealdstone. No London Overground service between Euston and Watford Junction. Replacement buses operate. Replacement buses operateService BL1: Queens Park - Kensal Green - Willesden Junction - North Acton (for Central line) - Harlesden (buses towards Queens Park serve stop HD in Winchelsea Road) - Stonebridge Park - Wembley Central - North Wembley - Preston Road (for Metropolitan line and South Kenton) - Kenton - Harrow & Wealdstone.Service BL1: Operates between 1000 and 1900 on Saturday and Sunday only. Queens Park - Kensal Green - Willesden Junction - North Acton (for Central line) - Harlesden (buses towards Queens Park serve stop HD in Winchelsea Road) - Stonebridge Park - Wembley Central - Harrow & Wealdstone.

 
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Lewlew

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It’s even more confusing as the Bakerloo line entry mentions a bus, seems to refer to Preston Road for Metropolitan, and then suggests only running 10:00 to 19:00. But also says no Overground Euston-Watford. Here is the actual wording (TfL grammar)

BAKERLOO LINE: Saturday 27 and Sunday 28 March, no service between Queens Park and Harrow & Wealdstone. No London Overground service between Euston and Watford Junction. Replacement buses operate. Replacement buses operateService BL1: Queens Park - Kensal Green - Willesden Junction - North Acton (for Central line) - Harlesden (buses towards Queens Park serve stop HD in Winchelsea Road) - Stonebridge Park - Wembley Central - North Wembley - Preston Road (for Metropolitan line and South Kenton) - Kenton - Harrow & Wealdstone.Service BL1: Operates between 1000 and 1900 on Saturday and Sunday only. Queens Park - Kensal Green - Willesden Junction - North Acton (for Central line) - Harlesden (buses towards Queens Park serve stop HD in Winchelsea Road) - Stonebridge Park - Wembley Central - Harrow & Wealdstone.

Bakerloo line is planned engineering works. The standard replacement buses always stop at Preston Road. But looks like they've amended the buses between 1000 - 1900 to miss out Preston Road (and seemingly North Wembley to Kenton oddly, although they might be served by the Overground replacement bus).

Looks as though the services should be the other way around, only serving Preston Road 1000 - 1900 and skipping it in the morning/evening.
 

700007

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Bakerloo line is planned engineering works. The standard replacement buses always stop at Preston Road. But looks like they've amended the buses between 1000 - 1900 to miss out Preston Road (and seemingly North Wembley to Kenton oddly, although they might be served by the Overground replacement bus).

Looks as though the services should be the other way around, only serving Preston Road 1000 - 1900 and skipping it in the morning/evening.
There are two replacement buses for the Bakerloo line, both operated by Metroline. One runs from first to last train which is the BL-1 which calls at all stations between Harrow & Wealdstone and Queens Park (except for South Kenton, which is substituted for Preston Road) and an additional stop at North Acton.

The other one, which TfL doesn't make quite clear is a semi-fast bus route, BL-2 which runs 1000-1900 which is Harrow & Wealdstone, then non stop to Wembley Central and all BL-1 stations to Queen's Park.

There will still be a replacement bus service between 10am and 7pm calling at Kenton, Preston Road and North Wembley which will be the BL-1 service outlined above. Hope this makes better sense!
 

matt_world2004

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Bakerloo line and London Overground should be using a common pool of replacement buses. Iirc. For Watford Dc line services
 

WideRanger

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It’s even more confusing as the Bakerloo line entry mentions a bus, seems to refer to Preston Road for Metropolitan, and then suggests only running 10:00 to 19:00. But also says no Overground Euston-Watford. Here is the actual wording (TfL grammar)
I'm assuming the reason why the replacement buses don't stop at South Kenton is because it is on a very minor narrow road at one end of an estate. The road outside has a small bus once every 15 minutes and that often has difficulty getting through. Preston Road is the main road at the other end of the estate, and if buses are running past Preston Road station (which they have to if they are going to go past Kenton station), they may as well stop at Preston Road Station. Buses running non-stop from Wembley Park to Harrow & Wealdstone would go an entirely different and more direct route.
 

Horizon22

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Places like Paddington will also have no service further east, requiring a change on the Bakerloo or the central line.

Anyone know how long these weekend closures are expected to go on? - looking more widely no other operators seem to be having these sorts of issues around London.
 

700007

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Places like Paddington will also have no service further east, requiring a change on the Bakerloo or the central line.

Anyone know how long these weekend closures are expected to go on? - looking more widely no other operators seem to be having these sorts of issues around London.
Word on the grapevine, and it complements I guess what has been said on this thread, suggests this could be a long-term issue as this is the culmination of a number of different issues all boiling into one. It's not a quick fix by the sounds of things but happy to be corrected by those more in the know than I am.

There is a backlog of recruitment to replace those who have retired or sadly passed away, or stepped away from their duties long term to look after family too. Covid restrictions makes it difficult to comply with guidance when training and as I understand it, even some of the trainers have also stepped down on some parts of the Underground.

It's also the length of time it takes to train people, obviously train driving, instructing, controlling and signalling are all very specialist skills that cannot be learnt in a day. These take several months and in times like these, it will inevitably take longer.

Add in the amount that are isolating, shielding or on short and long term leave in various grades, makes it too difficult to cover all duties. How long it will be for, nobody knows.

It's quite predictable every weekend now that the Bakerloo, Circle, Hammersmith & City and Metropolitan lines will have severe disruption at the weekends as has been the case for the past 6 weeks but (for reasons I understand) the thing that's more unpredictable is the scale of disruption each weekend. There has been cases where there's no service at all the whole of Sunday and other cases where the line shuts after 1700, 1900 or 2100 and final details are only able to be planned days in advance dependent on staff availability across the board.
 

Snow1964

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Places like Paddington will also have no service further east, requiring a change on the Bakerloo or the central line.

Anyone know how long these weekend closures are expected to go on? - looking more widely no other operators seem to be having these sorts of issues around London.

One of the many reasons officially ends in few days time (shielding), and with workplace testing for large organisations now available, another one isolating should be much reduced.

However, based on various comment, there does seem to a lack of qualified staff (due to retirements, leaving etc). But that rather puts into question the succession plan, why internally promoting and training up a reserve pool of staff never happened. The role is an important cog in a big machine, actually it’s a critical cog because the other roles are pointless if that one isn’t done as trains don’t run. Its like a football team that looses the person who brings the balls to the game, rest of team can’t then do anything.

Obviously skilled roles require training, which can be time consuming, but this is known, so in most industries you run excess of critical roles. Could you imagine a shortage of air traffic controllers being acceptable.

There is another part that I haven’t seen very well explained. If there is a shortage, normal company reaction is an emergency retention policy (throwing big bonuses at staff to stay on a bit longer until new trainees are ready). Clearly TfL failed to even do this.
 

Horizon22

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Yes I gather that TfL management might have dropped the ball slightly on this one - obviously other operators have been affected due to short-term Covid outbreaks, but I haven't seen any have such a sustained crisis so as to essentially abandon all service on a weekend. Reduced yes, but at a steady level that people can expect. Obviously there are other issues, such as succession planning and lack of qualified individuals (for a variety of reasons) that are not related to Covid but have been compounded by it.

Not disputing these are skilled roles but these issues are not unique to just TfL, yet they seem to have adapted the least well.
 

bramling

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One of the many reasons officially ends in few days time (shielding), and with workplace testing for large organisations now available, another one isolating should be much reduced.

However, based on various comment, there does seem to a lack of qualified staff (due to retirements, leaving etc). But that rather puts into question the succession plan, why internally promoting and training up a reserve pool of staff never happened. The role is an important cog in a big machine, actually it’s a critical cog because the other roles are pointless if that one isn’t done as trains don’t run. Its like a football team that looses the person who brings the balls to the game, rest of team can’t then do anything.

Obviously skilled roles require training, which can be time consuming, but this is known, so in most industries you run excess of critical roles. Could you imagine a shortage of air traffic controllers being acceptable.

There is another part that I haven’t seen very well explained. If there is a shortage, normal company reaction is an emergency retention policy (throwing big bonuses at staff to stay on a bit longer until new trainees are ready). Clearly TfL failed to even do this.

You are bang on with this analysis. There’s a problem that people don’t want to be a controller for the Met/H&C, and this isn’t just a Covid issue, though Covid has exacerbated things.
 

Horizon22

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You are bang on with this analysis. There’s a problem that people don’t want to be a controller for the Met/H&C, and this isn’t just a Covid issue, though Covid has exacerbated things.

I think we touched it on slightly before, but what's the issue with Met / H&C (does that include District Edgware Rd / Olympia?) specifically? Workload / type of work / conditions?
 

lonogrol

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Yes I gather that TfL management might have dropped the ball slightly on this one - obviously other operators have been affected due to short-term Covid outbreaks, but I haven't seen any have such a sustained crisis so as to essentially abandon all service on a weekend. Reduced yes, but at a steady level that people can expect. Obviously there are other issues, such as succession planning and lack of qualified individuals (for a variety of reasons) that are not related to Covid but have been compounded by it.

Not disputing these are skilled roles but these issues are not unique to just TfL, yet they seem to have adapted the least well.
Firstly these roles are employed by London Underground and not TfL.
There are a number of issues at play. As Bramling pointed out-resourcing issues for posts at this location are a specific challenge and there is a case of semi-unofficial industrial action.
Its also quite unique, in that very few other railway operators can have their network shut down by a single person being unavailable.

I think we touched it on slightly before, but what's the issue with Met / H&C (does that include District Edgware Rd / Olympia?) specifically? Workload / type of work / conditions?
The Met line controllers are responsible for the whole Met line, as well as the Hammersmith branch, and everything past Notting Hill gate. Hi
 

Horizon22

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Firstly these roles are employed by London Underground and not TfL.
There are a number of issues at play. As Bramling pointed out-resourcing issues for posts at this location are a specific challenge and there is a case of semi-unofficial industrial action.
Its also quite unique, in that very few other railway operators can have their network shut down by a single person being unavailable.


The Met line controllers are responsible for the whole Met line, as well as the Hammersmith branch, and everything past Notting Hill gate. Hi

Yeah when I refer to "TfL" I mean the Underground too under the umbrella. Thanks for the background though, seems like a complex issue.
 

Snow1964

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Firstly these roles are employed by London Underground and not TfL.

Its also quite unique, in that very few other railway operators can have their network shut down by a single person being unavailable.

Very strange way to organise things, not normal (and generally commercial suicide) to create a role that is more important than managing director or chairman. Their absence wouldn’t shut whole thing down, because there would be a team to delegate to. I cannot fathom why such a critical role would be created without a multitude of backups. Someone has seriously dropped the ball.
 

bramling

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Very strange way to organise things, not normal (and generally commercial suicide) to create a role that is more important than managing director or chairman. Their absence wouldn’t shut whole thing down, because there would be a team to delegate to. I cannot fathom why such a critical role would be created without a multitude of backups. Someone has seriously dropped the ball.

The thing with it is the role is very highly specialised, and you can’t even move people around from one line to another as every line has massive local knowledge. And this is something which has become much more of an issue over time - going back a generation or two, all LU signalling was standard, and signalling itself was done by dedicated signalling people. So controllers essentially needed only a logbook, timetable and pencil. Now most lines have controllers doing signalling as well, which actually has many benefits, but means to work in a particular location requires a lot more specific training. Then we have the situation where the PPP has several different signalling systems, something like TBTC the training is something along the lines of 7 weeks for that alone.

Meanwhile there’s been a long-running thing that the Met and C&H have a higher workload than elsewhere for various reasons (it’s a bit of an odd thing as in some ways their service is less intense and adds up to fewer trains than something like the Northern), quite a bit of hassle with drivers (more the C&H than Met), and now a room which is in a location where people don’t want to be, and is difficult to get to from many parts of London.

Add in Covid, and the fact that Covid has increased workload even more having to deal with all the crewing-related issues associated with that, and all the pieces fit together for a perfect storm.

Meanwhile you have the legendary TfL industrial relations, and here we are.

Most people wouldn’t want to swim in a shark pool, and by the same token most people don’t seem to want to be a Met / C&H controller.
 

Horizon22

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It doesn't seem like an unsurmountable problem though - on National Rail networks, most signallers are based at one location, with massive local knowledge and signal boxes haven't shut en masse...
 

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Seems the Victoria line will now be suspended Seven Sisters to Walthamstow Central on Sunday morning until 0700. Doesn't give a reason why, but I assume probably 'train cancellations'. No Replacement buses will operate. Passengers told to use the 230.
 

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Metropolitan Line Suspended from 1200 instead of 1800 today.
Replacement Bus Service ML-2 and ML-3 expected to commence at 16.30 and ML-6 is already running.
 

Snow1964

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Replacement Bus Service ML-2 and ML-3 expected to commence at 16.30 and ML-6 is already running.

Circle line is also suspended due to unavailability of control room staff. District (Edgware Rd - High St Kensington) suspended same reason

Like the Met, currently no replacement buses (except ML-6) running for either of these.

However the District has replacement buses Tower Hill - Barking, covering engineering Tower Hill - West Ham so appears West Ham - Barking has both trains and buses, whilst other sections have neither (why ?)
 
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Dstock7080

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However the District has replacement buses Tower Hill - Barking, covering engineering Tower Hill - West Ham so appears West Ham - Barking has both trains and buses, whilst other sections have neither (why ?)
No buses from West Ham, Plaistow, Upton Park or East Ham. They run directly from Bromley to Canning Town then Barking.
 

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It doesn't seem like an unsurmountable problem though - on National Rail networks, most signallers are based at one location, with massive local knowledge and signal boxes haven't shut en masse...

There’s been some level of issue with Met / C&H control for many years. It then hasn’t helped to move it to a location where the number of issues has multiplied, and then on top of that Covid comes along.

Hammersmith would probably have been fine once the SSR resignalling was completed - getting everyone under one roof would have addressed a lot of the workload issues, as would the CBTC way of working where signallers take on a proportion of the controller workload. The Jubilee and Northern lines successfully work in this way, and the Northern if anything has slightly more trains on its railway to worry about, albeit fewer interfaces. But reaching that point is many years away, and with the project now officially de scoped might never happen at all.
 

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Seems the Victoria line will now be suspended Seven Sisters to Walthamstow Central on Sunday morning until 0700. Doesn't give a reason why, but I assume probably 'train cancellations'. No Replacement buses will operate. Passengers told to use the 230.
Track works at Walthamstow Central.
 

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Hard to see that this can continue without some form of better RRB service once the national lockdown ends tomorrow - 3 buses into London from Chorleywood etc just isn't going to be acceptable. Shuttles to adjacent Chiltern / LNWR stations perhaps - with requirement to touch in at the origin station and get a ticket/voucher to cover the bus/national rail journey.
 

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Hard to see that this can continue without some form of better RRB service once the national lockdown ends tomorrow - 3 buses into London from Chorleywood etc just isn't going to be acceptable. Shuttles to adjacent Chiltern / LNWR stations perhaps - with requirement to touch in at the origin station and get a ticket/voucher to cover the bus/national rail journey.
I do agree that the rail replacement bus services at the moment are a bit too fragmented. It has only worked just because it is quiet at the moment but would probably be great for passenger convenience if the ML-3 was extended from Amersham to Chesham, and ML-2 from either Watford to Watford Junction or Harrow to Harrow & Wealdstone so that 'long distance' Met line passengers can change onto an alternative train much earlier than Wembley Park.

But I imagine as these bus routes are most likely tendered (in a similar fashion to normal, full time, day bus routes on the TfL network) they pay by the mile and it is cheaper to run an every 20 minute shuttle service to and from Chesham than it is to run an every 30 minute Rickmansworth to Chesham service solely because the mileage would be incredibly high for the route (compared to other TfL routes) and rail replacement routes generally are not cheap by the mile.
 

juliet_papa

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It doesn't seem like an unsurmountable problem though - on National Rail networks, most signallers are based at one location, with massive local knowledge and signal boxes haven't shut en masse...
I think the situation is quite different between LU and NWR. I think it would be like comparing apples to oranges.

In most cases, NWR staff have chosen where they work, as they normally apply for a vacancy in a specific location or area (Other than displacements but even then you can apply to a better location for you, before you get sent somewhere), so most people are quite content with where they are. Which by the sounds of it, the people on the Met didn't have much say on it and/or aren't very happy.

NWR signalling grades means that a location with a higher workload will be graded higher than a location with smaller workload. And if for whatever reason the workload in that area increases, they can apply for re-grading. My understanding is that with LU controllers most of the lines are on the same grade/pay level, so why would anyone want to work on a more difficult line for the same amount of money?

Many signalling locations on NWR have come closed to shutting some panels due to staff shortages during the pandemic (Some have closed panels for few hours), most only kept running by utilising the meal relief person or other members of staff such as the SSM or LOM's (In many cases resulting reduced breaks or no breaks at all for the signallers on duty), and on a lot of goodwill from staff. Larger signalling centres will normally have a much larger number of staff that will be off, and may be willing to come in. Also, some areas with CCTV crossings, trainees out of signalling school have been qualified on and used to cover it, whilst the signaller booked on that panel gets moved to cover a signalling panel, as signing a CCTV LX panel is a lot more straight forward than a signalling panel. So whilst there may not have been a lot of panel closures it doesn't mean it hasn't been smooth sailing.

From what I heard, trainee LU controllers on some lines have a huge failure rate. Not only during initial training, but also whilst training on the desk. Which in my experience NWR doesn't really have (Especially once they pass signalling school). Which probably doesn't help with the whole situation neither.
 

Horizon22

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I think the situation is quite different between LU and NWR. I think it would be like comparing apples to oranges.

In most cases, NWR staff have chosen where they work, as they normally apply for a vacancy in a specific location or area (Other than displacements but even then you can apply to a better location for you, before you get sent somewhere), so most people are quite content with where they are. Which by the sounds of it, the people on the Met didn't have much say on it and/or aren't very happy.

NWR signalling grades means that a location with a higher workload will be graded higher than a location with smaller workload. And if for whatever reason the workload in that area increases, they can apply for re-grading. My understanding is that with LU controllers most of the lines are on the same grade/pay level, so why would anyone want to work on a more difficult line for the same amount of money?

Many signalling locations on NWR have come closed to shutting some panels due to staff shortages during the pandemic (Some have closed panels for few hours), most only kept running by utilising the meal relief person or other members of staff such as the SSM or LOM's (In many cases resulting reduced breaks or no breaks at all for the signallers on duty), and on a lot of goodwill from staff. Larger signalling centres will normally have a much larger number of staff that will be off, and may be willing to come in. Also, some areas with CCTV crossings, trainees out of signalling school have been qualified on and used to cover it, whilst the signaller booked on that panel gets moved to cover a signalling panel, as signing a CCTV LX panel is a lot more straight forward than a signalling panel. So whilst there may not have been a lot of panel closures it doesn't mean it hasn't been smooth sailing.

From what I heard, trainee LU controllers on some lines have a huge failure rate. Not only during initial training, but also whilst training on the desk. Which in my experience NWR doesn't really have (Especially once they pass signalling school). Which probably doesn't help with the whole situation neither.

That's good background too thanks. I suppose it doesn't reflect the fact that this could have been solved by adequate recruitment in good time if we know these issues could occur, but of course nobody would have predicted Covid. New recruits probably wouldn't have so much of an issue working on the same grade as they don't have a comparator. That being said I'm sure there's a plethora of NWR signalling locations where signallers complain their Grade 5 box is harder than Y's Grade 5 box!

Sounds overall that the role needs a huge review as there are countless problems with it judging by the evidence here.
 

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That's good background too thanks. I suppose it doesn't reflect the fact that this could have been solved by adequate recruitment in good time if we know these issues could occur, but of course nobody would have predicted Covid. New recruits probably wouldn't have so much of an issue working on the same grade as they don't have a comparator. That being said I'm sure there's a plethora of NWR signalling locations where signallers complain their Grade 5 box is harder than Y's Grade 5 box!

Sounds overall that the role needs a huge review as there are countless problems with it judging by the evidence here.

Indeed, the last two posts are a pretty accurate summary IMV.

I’m not sure it’s necessarily the case that workload is that much different across the system - the Vic Line for example runs around half the number of trains some other lines do, but the intensity of the service means it’s still hard work.

I think the Met issue is that their line seems to go up the wall disproportionately more often than anywhere else, then when it does there’s a lot more people in the loop because of the way the line itself and its control structure is laid out.

You can then add to this that Hammersmith is simply an unpopular location.

Covid has simply amplified issues which were already there.

Take a hypothetical example. If on a Saturday you come to work as a controller and are more-or-less guaranteed to have a list of 50 cancellations to have to work through. Is this or isn’t this normal workload, considering that (1) you’re still going to get your daily diet of incidents ranging from infrastructure failures, people stuck in lifts, train issues, passenger issues, et cetera), and (2) the list of cancellations is largely because there simply aren’t enough drivers. At some point you’re going to get the hump when it’s happening day after day, and you’re essentially being dumped with the tail end of a problem. Then Covid comes along and turbocharges all this.

If it were me, I’d do two things more or less straight away:
1) Split up the Met control function to even up the workload. Have an H&C controller for everything inwards of Baker Street, and a Met controller for everywhere else. This would need some very careful protocols for the Baker Street area itself though.
2) Make recruitment location specific. At the moment things are not helped by the fact people are being put off applying for the *role* because they might end up at one of the less desirable locations, or somewhere on the opposite side of London to where they live. You then end up left with the “applying for the money” candidates rather than necessarily those with a sparkle for the job. So say you have someone prepared to take on a role at Neasden, Highgate or Northumberland Park (north London), but not prepared to take on Wood Lane or Hammersmith (west London). At present there’s no guarantee they’ll end up where they want, which is stupid for a shift-based job as somewhere like Hammersmith may well be almost physically impossible for them to reach in reasonable terms at certain times. So they pull out of the job, and the whole grade is now one down. To me this is cutting the nose to spite the face. Once left with the “doing it for the money” candidates, you can bet there’s a higher likelihood of them failing the training. It’s completely counter-intuitive - we have TOCs who impose strict limits on how far a driver can live from their work location, yet LU is actively placing people at a location where they might incur an extra hour’s travel-to-work time. It’s insane IMO.
 

juliet_papa

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That's good background too thanks. I suppose it doesn't reflect the fact that this could have been solved by adequate recruitment in good time if we know these issues could occur, but of course nobody would have predicted Covid. New recruits probably wouldn't have so much of an issue working on the same grade as they don't have a comparator. That being said I'm sure there's a plethora of NWR signalling locations where signallers complain their Grade 5 box is harder than Y's Grade 5 box!

Sounds overall that the role needs a huge review as there are countless problems with it judging by the evidence here.
Yep. That is what happens when companies let their staffing levels get too low, then add other historical issues in the mix and you get what is happening.

I do agree that the role needs some serious review.

If the role of a controller is like other LU roles, being short-staffed also means that when they put in for another role within LU, they won't be released with "business needs" being cited. Meaning that people then are stuck in a role that they aren't happy with and not many others wants or are able to do.
 

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Yep. That is what happens when companies let their staffing levels get too low, then add other historical issues in the mix and you get what is happening.

I do agree that the role needs some serious review.

If the role of a controller is like other LU roles, being short-staffed also means that when they put in for another role within LU, they won't be released with "business needs" being cited. Meaning that people then are stuck in a role that they aren't happy with and not many others wants or are able to do.

Spot on. NR’s recruitment process treats people like adults, LU’s seems to treat people like children. It goes without saying that you get a lot more out of happy staff.

The SSR will (IMO) come good once the upgrade is finished, as this *should* sort out the workload problems by taking an element of work away from the controllers and on to the signallers — however for this to happen the SSR will need an element of cultural shift. The problem is it’s a very long road to reach that point, and with descoping already on the table it may be a point which is never reachable. There will still need to be a total re-think of resourcing though.
 
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