Deltics on the ECML

[Clarence Yard]

No.

 

[Whistler40145]

No.

No what?

 

[SteveM70]

Dictionary defintion of despair - It is 1980, you have cycled to a bridge on the ECML, it is a lovely sunny day, you have your camera ready, the 12:05 Kings Cross to York is due any minute, the tension is building and then suddenly you see a flat yellow front approaching in the distance.

I have been there, felt that.

Dictionary definition of excitement- it’s a Saturday evening in the winter of 1977/78, and the 7 year old me is with his dad in Grantham. (I’ve no idea why we were there). Dad suggests we get to the station early for our train home (Peterborough then Nuneaton) because we might see a Deltic, something he’d told me about a lot. As we approached the station I could hear what seemed the most incredible, booming sound and our walk turned into a run. Onto the platform just in time to see 55008 make its getaway. It seems like yesterday

 

[Clarence Yard]

No what?

No, you are not correct. The only double heading was the assisting of failures.

 

[Sultan1056]

There were two distinct eras - pre 1978 and 1978-81 : essentially before and after the Deltics were replaced on the premier services by HST.

IIRC

Before HST, I believe there were more distinct diagrams for Deltics and 47s to take into consideration the 5mph difference in top speed etc.. So for example I think you could get a London to Newcastle train / or a London to Leeds train on a Deltic timing and another one later in the day on a 47 timing. Generally speaking the more prestige trains were Deltics.

In practice the non-availabilty of a Deltic on a Deltic diagram could often lead to a 47 replacement.


After HST, the Deltics were relegated mainly to the York and Hull semi-fast trains. These were timed for Deltics. The most common pattern was for the HST to leave Kings Cross at XX:00 and then the Deltic semi fast at XX:05. The Deltic had to make it to York stopping at all the stations Huntingdon, Peterborough, Grantham etc before the next HST - so the timings were quite tight. When the 47s finally replaced the Deltics in 1981 on these services the timings were relaxed.

Again, in practice the non-availabilty of a Deltic on a Deltic diagram could often lead to a 47 replacement.

Dictionary defintion of despair - It is 1980, you have cycled to a bridge on the ECML, it is a lovely sunny day, you have your camera ready, the 12:05 Kings Cross to York is due any minute, the tension is building and then suddenly you see a flat yellow front approaching in the distance.

I have been there, felt that.

I would agree with your reply. Just to add further and based only on observations, pre HST services I would say most of the KX-ED services were Deltic hauled. KX-NEW and KX-LEEDS services were split 50/50 with Deltics and 47. The KX-Hull and Cleethorpes were in the hands of 47s. The up Hull Pullman was booked a Detic too.

Am I correct that the Hull services double headed because of reliability issues

No, there was very little double heading on the ECML. Occasionally you might get a pair of 31s on an overnight from KX if there was a shortage of power. Boiler failures sometimes meant pairing up the troublesome loco with a 31.

 

[tbwbear]

Dictionary definition of excitement- it’s a Saturday evening in the winter of 1977/78, and the 7 year old me is with his dad in Grantham. (I’ve no idea why we were there). Dad suggests we get to the station early for our train home (Peterborough then Nuneaton) because we might see a Deltic, something he’d told me about a lot. As we approached the station I could hear what seemed the most incredible, booming sound and our walk turned into a run. Onto the platform just in time to see 55008 make its getaway. It seems like yesterday

Lovely image !

It does seem like yesterday - picture of number 8 at Grantham here on my blog - https://trainstobeyond.com/2017/08/02/1980-uk-deadline-for-obsession/


Dictionary Definition of anger - the 12:20 to York is a 47 as well ! (that only happened once)

 

[Whistler40145]

No, you are not correct. The only double heading was the assisting of failures.

Cheers, I think I saw a photo of a double headed Hull Executive because one Deltic had blown one engine and the train required assistance

 

[hexagon789]

There were two distinct eras - pre 1978 and 1978-81 : essentially before and after the Deltics were replaced on the premier services by HST.

IIRC

Before HST, I believe there were more distinct diagrams for Deltics and 47s to take into consideration the 5mph difference in top speed etc.. So for example I think you could get a London to Newcastle train / or a London to Leeds train on a Deltic timing and another one later in the day on a 47 timing. Generally speaking the more prestige trains were Deltics.

In practice the non-availabilty of a Deltic on a Deltic diagram could often lead to a 47 replacement.


After HST, the Deltics were relegated mainly to the York and Hull semi-fast trains. These were timed for Deltics. The most common pattern was for the HST to leave Kings Cross at XX:00 and then the Deltic semi fast at XX:05. The Deltic had to make it to York stopping at all the stations Huntingdon, Peterborough, Grantham etc before the next HST - so the timings were quite tight. When the 47s finally replaced the Deltics in 1981 on these services the timings were relaxed.

Again, in practice the non-availabilty of a Deltic on a Deltic diagram could often lead to a 47 replacement.

Dictionary defintion of despair - It is 1980, you have cycled to a bridge on the ECML, it is a lovely sunny day, you have your camera ready, the 12:05 Kings Cross to York is due any minute, the tension is building and then suddenly you see a flat yellow front approaching in the distance.

I have been there, felt that.

So there was a pattern to the workings even if it didn't always work in practice.

I can understand the pain of a 47 turning up vice 55, particularly towards the end but it wouldn't have bothered me - I like 47s!

Cheers, I think I saw a photo of a double headed Hull Executive because one Deltic had blown one engine and the train required assistance

They could manage 100 on one engine particularly on the so-called Deltic+8 formations, though acceleration wouldn't be great.

 

[tbwbear]

So there was a pattern to the workings even if it didn't always work in practice.

I can understand the pain of a 47 turning up vice 55, particularly towards the end but it wouldn't have bothered me - I like 47s!


They could manage 100 on one engine particularly on the so-called Deltic+8 formations, though acceleration wouldn't be great.

We had 47s on our local line at Blackpool so there was none of the same excitement attached to them. When a 47 vice 55 came into view I rarely pressed the shutter. Film was relatively expensive in those days so you had to conserve it.

My biggest regret is that I never took any photos of the 125s that were flashing past whilst I was waiting for the Deltics to appear. For every picture I have of a 55 all the way along the ECML, I could probably have got one of a 125 as well. At the time I respected the 125s but they didn't interest me a great deal. It seems a bit odd now looking back. With digital cameras of course the world is so different.

But even with a digital camera, I still don't think I would have taken too many shots of 47s, to me they were like lads who tried to run off with your girlfriend.

 

[Fleetwood Boy]

We had 47s on our local line at Blackpool so there was none of the same excitement attached to them. When a 47 vice 55 came into view I rarely pressed the shutter. Film was relatively expensive in those days so you had to conserve it.

My biggest regret is that I never took any photos of the 125s that were flashing past whilst I was waiting for the Deltics to appear. For every picture I have of a 55 all the way along the ECML, I could probably have got one of a 125 as well. At the time I respected the 125s but they didn't interest me a great deal. It seems a bit odd now looking back. With digital cameras of course the world is so different.

But even with a digital camera, I still don't think I would have taken too many shots of 47s, to me they were like lads who tried to run off with your girlfriend.

And then got them up the duff? Don’t worry, I’m reaching for my coat ...

 

[hexagon789]

We had 47s on our local line at Blackpool so there was none of the same excitement attached to them. When a 47 vice 55 came into view I rarely pressed the shutter. Film was relatively expensive in those days so you had to conserve it.

My biggest regret is that I never took any photos of the 125s that were flashing past whilst I was waiting for the Deltics to appear. For every picture I have of a 55 all the way along the ECML, I could probably have got one of a 125 as well. At the time I respected the 125s but they didn't interest me a great deal. It seems a bit odd now looking back. W

I can definitely understand the familiarity thing, even today it's more interesting seeing something less common.

And digital photography is a godsend, no wasted film and you don't need to worry about the first shot being out of focus because you can just take another. I'm sure many people wish it was around about 30, 40, 50 years ago.

But even with a digital camera, I still don't think I would have taken too many shots of 47s, to me they were like lads who tried to run off with your girlfriend.

That's fair enough, but for me I can't get enough of them!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

But even with a digital camera, I still don't think I would have taken too many shots of 47s, to me they were like lads who tried to run off with your girlfriend.

That's fair enough, but for me I can't get enough of them!

Agreed. Love the class 47s. Living backing onto the WCML saw pairs of D400ers (Class 50s) all day long so Brush 4s (Class 47s) were welcome so grew to love them. But the shear thrill of going to the East and seeing Deltics was an absolute thrill. Still remember my first one like yesterday. August Bank Holiday Monday 1970 D9010 on York Station. People could not understand that I cleared all my locos so I set out to get a photo of them all. I have multiple photos of every single Deltic in many locations but I got close to all 47s too. I double checked recently and only missed a photo of 10 of them. Great memories

 

[CW2]

Early October 1979, and I'm moving south from York to London to go to University. I've arranged to meet a mate who is going to the same Uni, so we stand on the platform at York to await our train south. Of course I've persuaded him that he doesn't want to travel in an HST - there will be much more room for our luggage in a loco-hauled train, for example the 1215 York - Kings Cross, booked a Deltic, and a pretty regular performer.
Departure time comes and goes, with no stock in the station to form the train. Eventually it arrives, not a Deltic, not even a Duff, but 31410 on 8 air cons.
My words to my mate on seeing the 31 staggering into the platform were "We aren't in a hurry are we? That thing will never get us there!" And so it proved. a 10 minute late start turned into 35 minutes late by Peterborough, where the ghastly device finally expired in a shimmering haze of steam. Eventually 47200 appeared from the fuelling point and took us forward to Kings Cross, arriving 73 minutes late.
Where are all the Deltics when you really need one!?

 

[Harvester]

My most memorable journey with Deltic haulage was on 31 Dec 1981, the last day of normal Deltic service. I was travelling from York to Grantham on the 15:50 York to Kings Cross hauled by 55 015 Tulyar. The train was about 20 minutes late departing, but worse was to follow when a broken rail caused a line blockage at Barkston Junction. The train was held for around two hours before we finally restarted and arrived at Grantham two and a half hours late. Apparently the 16:03 Kings Cross to York hauled by 55 017 was terminated at Grantham, and returned south in the path of the delayed 15:50. However 55 017 failed south of Peterborough, on its very last working.

 

[6Gman]

What i find amazing ( with hindsight) is you never tired of Deltics on the ECML. There are many places where you could tire of the almost monotomy of say 47's or on WCML 86's and 87's, yet on the ECML you never tired on seeing these majestic beast in action. Glad some have been preserved but you had to be there to really appreciate them in their finest glory

Well, part of that might have been that there were only 22 of them and therefore there were few trains on which you could guarantee one.

I remember a very, very cold trip to Newark (from Crewe, I think on the 05.55 to Derby - ouch!) where 12 trains were scheduled to pass while I was there. I reckoned 4 were pretty definite for a Deltic, 4 were 50/50, and 4 would definitely be 47s.

The actuality? 11 47s and just 1 Deltic!

Still a good day, but my photographic portfolio wasn't quite what I'd hoped for.

 

[Western Sunset]

What i find amazing ( with hindsight) is you never tired of Deltics on the ECML. There are many places where you could tire of the almost monotomy of say 47's or on WCML 86's and 87's, yet on the ECML you never tired on seeing these majestic beast in action. Glad some have been preserved but you had to be there to really appreciate them in their finest glory

Sometimes I just close my eyes and recall sitting by the lineside at High Dyke on a beautiful June day, listening to Deltics drone out of Grantham on the climb up to Stoke tunnel.

 

[nedchester]

Am I correct that the Hull services double headed because of reliability issues

No

 

[marsker]

Worth remembering that in the 1979 summer timetable, the down Hull Executive had the fastest scheduled start to stop run in the country at 91.3 mph from Kings Cross to Retford. Trin in those days was a Deltic+8.
My main memories are from the 1960s when virtually all Kings Cross - Newcastle and Edinburgh services were Deltic hauled. In the middle of the decade my memory is that ECML timekeeping was of a very high standard, and substitutions by classes 46 or 47 (as they were later called) were quite rare. Maybe I'm just looking back through rose-tinted glasses!

 

[Master Cutler]

In the Deltic Deadline, the journal of the Deltic Preservation Society, there has been a superb series of articles by Paul James "Tales From A King's Cross Secondman" recalling his days on the Deltics.
The main thing I've gleaned from his accounts is, even as the thoroughbreds of BR traction, how labour intensive these locomotives were, both prior to setting off and during service, when charged with meeting their demanding operating schedules.
As a non-railway man I, and no doubt many others, wrongly assumed the mainline diesel days were and possibly are quite easy compared to the hard labour of the Top Link steam crews.
Completely wrong, I'm sure.

 

[hexagon789]

Worth remembering that in the 1979 summer timetable, the down Hull Executive had the fastest scheduled start to stop run in the country at 91.3 mph from Kings Cross to Retford. Trin in those days was a Deltic+8.
My main memories are from the 1960s when virtually all Kings Cross - Newcastle and Edinburgh services were Deltic hauled. In the middle of the decade my memory is that ECML timekeeping was of a very high standard, and substitutions by classes 46 or 47 (as they were later called) were quite rare. Maybe I'm just looking back through rose-tinted glasses!

It even kept that overall booking with a Newark North Gate call inserted as I recall but from May 1981 4 or 5 mins recovery was added I seem to recall.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Sometimes I just close my eyes and recall sitting by the lineside at High Dyke on a beautiful June day, listening to Deltics drone out of Grantham on the climb up to Stoke tunnel.

Yes indeed. I loved seeing Class 26 on Haymarket depot but boy oh boy the Deltics still gave me the greatest thrill. Remember ( and I have a photo) of 7 Deltics on Haymarket depot on one occasion. Easter Sunday 1976. Beautiful machines. Fins bury Park likewise

 

[matchmaker]

Did the ECML sleepers not get converted to ETH in the mid-70s? Obviously the LMR cars all needed to be done by the mid-1960s when electrification came along (and dual heat for the ones that ran on to Inverness etc); I thought the ECML ones were done before the WR cars were done, which latter led directly to the 1978 Taunton sleeper fire. The Deltics were not withdrawn until the early 1980s.

A bit of a thread drift, but some LMS design 12 wheel 1st class sleepers were fitted with ETH for use on the WCML.