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Demise of Traveline website

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Mainline421

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I’d expect that the remaining Traveline sites will close when the hosting and software contracts end, possibly the national site will outlive the regional ones. I believe the idea is for ‘the market’ , that is operators’ and developers , to provide travel information and the huge, expensive Traveline service will be become obsolete within the next year or so.
Traveline is not obsolete, I was using the South East site regualrly until last week. This now means it will be very hard to get good timetable information unless you already know the operator of services in the area. Sites likee Google Maps are useless for less frequent services as they rely on you knowing when and exactly where you want to travel. Traveline has generally been more accuarte than most operators sites even in 2020 since most larger groups now rely on auto-generated timetables which then appear to not even be checked! (Same in the distant past but because they didn't update their website)
 
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markymark2000

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Traveline is not obsolete, I was using the South East site regualrly until last week. This now means it will be very hard to get good timetable information unless you already know the operator of services in the area. Sites likee Google Maps are useless for less frequent services as they rely on you knowing when and exactly where you want to travel. Traveline has generally been more accuarte than most operators sites even in 2020 since most larger groups now rely on auto-generated timetables which then appear to not even be checked! (Same in the distant past but because they didn't update their website)
I don't think what you are saying is entirely true here. Traveline has been quite far behind during Covid mainly because there is a middleman (The council) and that middleman was dealing with reduced staffing and wasn't able to keep up with so many changes at last minute. This meant that councils, PTEs and bus operators had information online much quicker. (Councils had info online quicker as it is quick to update a website whereas data to Traveline could be waiting upto a week to be updated onto the Traveline database)
If Traveline relied less on the councils and did more with OpenData, their site would be more updated. Ever since Bustimes.org came out, I have relied heavily on that since it combines Traveline and OpenData so it's generally more uptodate and it has more information as they have jumped on bus operators tracking data.

Large groups auto timetables, First seem to do quite well. Even while they may be auto generated, their site seemed pretty on the ball. Arriva was great before the update. Stagecoach and GoAhead depended on the area but in my local area, Stagecoach were great (if you went to the service update and didn't just use the normal timetable search)
 

Andy Pacer

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I'm not sure if it's the case across the board but i always found it frustrating that you had to download a timetable to actually view it.

Out of all the sites i find Bustimes.org the most convenient to use especially since it has live vehicle tracking, it's only downside is the lack of journey planner.
Agreed Bus Times is good, but I have noticed lately for some companies that entire services are missing though. Not knowing the process I dont know where the blame lies for that.

And remember never to 100% trust the tracker!
 

Andy Pacer

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I've never been too sure on the process. Even when I was compiling registrations and TransXchange files for local authorities (and various internal purposes) I was never sure how the information found it's way to the likes of Google Maps and Traveline etc.
 

Bletchleyite

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Bustimes, interestingly, is incredibly simple - does that show that while journey planners have their value, the Traveline planners just overdid what was needed?
 

Andy Pacer

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Bustimes, interestingly, is incredibly simple - does that show that while journey planners have their value, the Traveline planners just overdid what was needed?
Indeed, and has 2 or 3 different ways of finding the same information which is always welcome.
 

Bletchleyite

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Indeed, and has 2 or 3 different ways of finding the same information which is always welcome.

Indeed.

I hate to give "fat bus bloke"[1] too much credit, but he does have a point that a very simple site that just contains timetables (the crosslinking is also useful) is very much needed alongside the fancy journey planners[2], and Bustimes is that site.

[1] http://publictransportexperience.blogspot.com/ if you haven't come across him
[2] Google Maps is far better than any of them in my experience
 

Robertj21a

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Indeed.

I hate to give "fat bus bloke"[1] too much credit, but he does have a point that a very simple site that just contains timetables (the crosslinking is also useful) is very much needed alongside the fancy journey planners[2], and Bustimes is that site.

[1] http://publictransportexperience.blogspot.com/ if you haven't come across him
[2] Google Maps is far better than any of them in my experience

FBB has always had his uses!

I'm increasingly using Bus Times in preference to other sources as it's generally more up to date, and certainly quicker.
 

Andy Pacer

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I like the way you can get stop specific information quicker and easier on bus times as well as finding out alternative service options.
 

-Colly405-

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Traveline Sw works well up to date. Maps, routes everything.
I'll stick to Traveline Mids I think...

TravelineSW
- The search result box is far too small, especially when the "effective from" date is always a scroll to the right, which invariably means you've lost sight of the route number.
National Traveline
- There seems to be no way of getting a list of all routes run by x company.
Bustimes
- One company can have more than one entry. e.g. Stagecoach West has an entry in that name covering Swindon and a separate entry of Stagecoach in Gloucester covering Gloucester, Cheltenham, FOD and N Bristol.
- Companies can show in an area away from their operations - e.g. HCT's Bristol operations show under London, even though their legal lettering and the DVSA address for their O licence PH1105011 is Bristol.
 

Statto

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Main issue with bustimes.org, they show route variations separately, like 12/12A Birmingham-Dudley, the 12A is a variation of the 12 but are shown as separate timetables on the bustimes.org site, National Express West Midlands site show it as one timetable when you click the pdf timetable, Network West Midlands site show the 12/12A as separate timetables too, with every stop listed on the pdf.
 

Deerfold

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Main issue with bustimes.org, they show route variations separately, like 12/12A Birmingham-Dudley, the 12A is a variation of the 12 but are shown as separate timetables on the bustimes.org site, National Express West Midlands site show it as one timetable when you click the pdf timetable, Network West Midlands site show the 12/12A as separate timetables too, with every stop listed on the pdf.

Presumably how bustimes shows timetables depends how the operator groups them - Ember bus's E1 and E2 timetables show together on bustimes.
 

markymark2000

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Main issue with bustimes.org, they show route variations separately, like 12/12A Birmingham-Dudley, the 12A is a variation of the 12 but are shown as separate timetables on the bustimes.org site, National Express West Midlands site show it as one timetable when you click the pdf timetable, Network West Midlands site show the 12/12A as separate timetables too, with every stop listed on the pdf.
As it does on Traveline.
Bustimes does link SOME routes together, they seem to go through phases or linking up routes and then when the databases update, the groups are lost. I know at some point you would see the timetable with extra trips on it and above the timetable it would show the route number on top in black and then trips in the other service group had the respective route number showing up with a blue link for you to switch. It didn't tell you though if it was a different operator.

Bustimes and Traveline are very good but at different things and that is why things are the way they are. Traveline is better for the journey planner (even if sometimes it does provide some weird journey options), Bustimes is better for slightly more upto date information.
Traveline because it relies on councils, shows connecting services which are under the same route number (like the Interconnect routes in Lincolnshire) but as BusTimes uses OpenData for these routes, Stagecoach have to legally split the route for driving hours and as everything comes from their scheduling system straight to open data with no one inbetween checking it, it means that routes are split (Lincoln to Hornchurch and Hornchurch to Skegness) and you end up with weird notes like on the 56 where it instructs people to 'pick up the Lincoln mail bag'.
 

Staffordian

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The Midlands version in particular is all but identical to the now closed South East version. There are minor differences on the front page - a reference to Tunbridge Wells is changed to Norwich - but that's about it. The two websites were undoubtedly built by the same developer(s) at the same time, so what has actually been achieved by closing the South East one? The development cost was sunk a decade ago, while the hosting cost is pocket money and will still be incurred anyway. Or asking the same question from the other end, since they contain the same information presented in the same way, why didn't the South East version just redirect to the Midlands version years ago?

In theory, traveline.info presents the same information as regards the Midlands and South of England, together with comparable information for the rest of Great Britain, but in a slightly different way. There's an issue somewhere though, because it claims that some places - Easingwold in North Yorkshire was the example that I stumbled across - have no bus services. Does this imply that Easingwold's bus services, which definitely do exist, are absent from the Traveline National Dataset? If so, who needs to know this so that they can put it right?
I'm not sure of the exact dates, but Traveline South East was the first site developed by MENTZ, and after it was implemented for TSE, at various times Traveline South West, Traveline West Midlands and Traveline East Midlands adopted the same format, with a great deal of co-operation between the separate regions. Since then, I believe Traveline South West has moved to a different developer. So if anything, the question is why didn't the Midlands version just redirect to the South East version in the first place, rather than being a separate site. All the above sites all provide(d) journey planning across the entire country and timetables for bus services within their combined area (basically all of England south of Yorkshire, Greater Manchester and Cheshire). That is why there are no timetables for Easingwold on any of them.
Despite what other commenters have said, Traveline South East and Traveline Midlands have been the only sites, as far as I know, which manage the three apparently simple tasks of
a) listing routes in a sensible order (1,1A,2, etc.) - the Traveline national site for example lists in the order 1, 100, 101, 1A, 2 etc.
b) combining related routes on the same table (e.g. 1,1A,1B) - Traveline doesn't combine them at all, and nor does bustimes.org
c) generating sensible PDF outputs. - bustimes.org doesn't provide PDF's at all.
(As an aside, the Arriva website can't manage any of the above)
As a simple example, Traveline West Midlands is now the only way that I can provide a sensible printout for my mother-in-law of her local route (Arriva 8/8A service between Stafford and Parkside) without generating multiple sheets of paper. In contrast, Traveline Midlands manages this very neatly on one side of an A4 sheet.
I agree that the site is now looking rather outdated, but I personally believe it still has many advantages over most of the other options available.
 
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freetoview33

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In normal times for buses in and around Bristol travelinesw has new timetable info and route maps long before it's on anything else.
 

Staffordian

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In normal times for buses in and around Bristol travelinesw has new timetable info and route maps long before it's on anything else.
Agreed. I have always found the same for Traveline Midlands and Traveline South East - generally updated timetables appeared on them well before they did on the operator sites.

Edit 28/09/2020. An example of this is Hulleys 171 (Bakewell - Hartington - Leek), which commences on October 26th and whose timetable is shown on both Traveline Midlands and Traveline South West (see attachment), and as far as I can see, can't be found anywhere else. Although the service is listed on bustimes, it only provides a timetable via the link to TSW, rather than in the standard bustimes format.
 

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TUC

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Sites likee Google Maps are useless for less frequent services as they rely on you knowing when and exactly where you want to travel.
That's not my experience. If anything, Google Maps is rather good at spotting where there is a bus to catch which is 40 mins walk away, but is still the earliest arrival for where you need to go.
 

Deerfold

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That's not my experience. If anything, Google Maps is rather good at spotting where there is a bus to catch which is 40 mins walk away, but is still the earliest arrival for where you need to go.

Google Maps is good if it's got the uo-to-date information. It's not clear where it pulls this from, or whose fault it is if it's wrong.
I've just looked up a trip for tomorrow and it's recommending a route which had its last day yesterday.
 

Baxenden Bank

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Google Maps is good if it's got the uo-to-date information. It's not clear where it pulls this from, or whose fault it is if it's wrong.
I've just looked up a trip for tomorrow and it's recommending a route which had its last day yesterday.
I always like too see a commencement date on a timetable (on-line or paper) and for on-line data - when it was last updated. So that I can do a cross-check with an operators website. Traveline has this with a date and the organisation responsible for input. But there is little indication of any future changes known about but not finalised / uploaded.

An issue I have with all online sources is the unwillingness to release information in advance. Some are better than others, some are inconsistent with timeliness, some like to keep things close to their chest until the very last moment. I have been nearly caught out a number of times relying on on-line data - be that last minute changes not being reflected or long planned changes simply not being uploaded / made visible. Pre-internet, companies produced notices to be displayed on vehicles, in travel shops etc. Arrival of the internet saw them dispense with that method but not feel the need to produce the information on the internet either.

Movement to electronic systems (scheduling etc) has allowed timetables to be revised quickly, on a daily basis (eg STP, VSTP paths on the railway) but without the corresponding push to keep the passenger informed - unless they constantly check and re-check their future journeys.
 

PeterC

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The national Traveline site gives me cross country routes to walk to bus stops. The SE site only ever suggested walking on paved roads.
 
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