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Detection of fraudulent reuse of tickets

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DB

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Whilst remembering that there is no right to keep a ticket, for expenses or any other reason.

As I pointed out to them at the time, all they need to do is write the date on the ticket if they want to make sure it can't be used again.

If an employer wants tickets as evidence, then you need the tickets!
 
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221129

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As I pointed out to them at the time, all they need to do is write the date on the ticket if they want to make sure it can't be used again.

If an employer wants tickets as evidence, then you need the tickets!
Again, there is no right to keep tickets as they belong to the railway. The employers questionable policy is of no concern to the gateline staff.
 

DB

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Again, there is no right to keep tickets as they belong to the railway. The employers questionable policy is of no concern to the gateline staff.

That does show the inflexible attitude I would expect from some on the railways, certainly! The railways could of course avoid the issue in most cases by having receipts (from ticket offices and machines) which actually show more than the amount paid - in any other business, the receipt will state what it's for. As it is, it's only the actual tickets which state what journey is being made.

And what about delay repay, then? Been in that position as well. How can you claim without the ticket?
 

py_megapixel

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Again, there is no right to keep tickets as they belong to the railway. The employers questionable policy is of no concern to the gateline staff.
Does the railway provide an alternative means to prove that one held the ticket when making a compensation claim, then?
I've claimed from several TOCs, and I am yet to find one which doesn't require either the physical ticket to be posted, or an image of the ticket torn in half or otherwise defaced.

This is the source of most of the resistance to ticket-eating gates. It prevents DR claims.
 

island

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That does show the inflexible attitude I would expect from some on the railways, certainly! The railways could of course avoid the issue in most cases by having receipts (from ticket offices and machines) which actually show more than the amount paid - in any other business, the receipt will state what it's for. As it is, it's only the actual tickets which state what journey is being made.

And what about delay repay, then? Been in that position as well. How can you claim without the ticket?
All the receipts I get from booking offices state the journey made, as of course do my online purchases. Perhaps your local TOC has a different system to mine.

221129 is correct in saying that employers’ inflexible attitudes requiring you to keep and present a piece of a third party’s property to obtain an expense reimbursement are a problem of the employers, not of the railway. The conditions of travel which you choose to accept when purchasing a ticket state that tickets are the property of the railway and must be given up upon request.
 

Watershed

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Whilst remembering that there is no right to keep a ticket, for expenses or any other reason.
That's not correct - see NRCoT 33.1:
In order to make a claim under the industry arrangements set out at paragraph 32.1.1 above, you must write to the relevant Train Company within 28 days of completing the relevant journey unless informed otherwise by the relevant Train Company. You will need to state the timetabled departure time of the train or trains you intended to use for your journey and provide a Ticket or other authority to travel which was valid for that journey. A Train Company will allow you to retain a Ticket after use for this purpose.
So a TOC could refuse to return a ticket if merely for expenses claims, but not if you intend to make a DR claim.
 

nanstallon

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Again, there is no right to keep tickets as they belong to the railway. The employers questionable policy is of no concern to the gateline staff.

A reminder of the old jobsworth BR staff mentality! Customers are doing the railway a favour (not the other way round), and the railways should accommodate the needs of their customers. Just as any other business has to.
 

DB

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221129 is correct in saying that employers’ inflexible attitudes requiring you to keep and present a piece of a third party’s property to obtain an expense reimbursement are a problem of the employers, not of the railway. The conditions of travel which you choose to accept when purchasing a ticket state that tickets are the property of the railway and must be given up upon request.

I wasn't disputing it - merely pointing out that it's inflexible and not customer friendly - all of which I expect from some (certainly not all) staff on the railways, of course. It really makes no difference to them if you keep the ticket; if it has the date written on it then it can't be used again anyway.

Employees don't get to decide thier employers' expenses policies either - and the one about tickets is by no means uncommon.

A reminder of the old jobsworth BR staff mentality! Customers are doing the railway a favour (not the other way round), and the railways should accommodate the needs of their customers. Just as any other business has to.

Quite - there is something of a culture of self-importance among some railway staff, and aspects of the railways generally.
 

30907

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Except the employer refusing to believe their employee had used the train without being provided with the ticket? That seems extremely inflexible to me.
Question: what happened about expense claims back in the 60s when tickets were routinely collected as one left the platform?
Afterthought: it was into the 00s before I had to submit a physical/facsimile ticket on my expenses (for a large nationwide organisation before you ask). And (OT) I wonder how many mileage claims are checked...
 
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sheff1

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Again, there is no right to keep tickets as they belong to the railway.
Where is this documented now ?

The conditions of travel which you choose to accept when purchasing a ticket state that tickets are the property of the railway and must be given up upon request.
That statement was removed from the National Rail Conditions of Travel in October 2016.
 
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35B

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Except the employer refusing to believe their employee had used the train without being provided with the ticket? That seems extremely inflexible to me.
Employers are extremely inflexible on expenses policies, frequently because the teams managing expenses administration are focused solely on cost and fraud containment. I have seen people subject to very onerous reimbursement arrangements, totally disproportionate to the value of the ticket - in one case having to provide a paper screenshot to prove that they’d purchased the cheapest ticket possible.

The difference is that the railway operator is selling a service to a customer, whereas an employer is conducting its business. The onus should be on the railway to focus on its customers’ needs in a proportionate way.

As for itemised receipts, not all operators provide them and they aren’t always helpful - I have used the old ccst receipt format to avoid managerially approved but “off policy” tickets (typically first class on long journeys) which would cause time wasting scrutiny in review, but where proof of expenditure was sufficient for my employer.
 

Merle Haggard

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Question: what happened about expense claims back in the 60s when tickets were routinely collected as one left the platform?
The answer (I worked at a station then) is as follows;
Many employers of staff who travelled by rail regularly used B.R. Travel Warrants; the employer would have a book of warrants, and give one to the employee. On this, the details of the journey and date were entered and the employee would present this at the booking office. A ticket appropriate to the exact journey being made (e.g. day return) would be issued to the passenger (obviously, without charge) and the warrant passed to the BR Accounting Centre, which then billed the employer. The booking clerk would account for the value of the warrant to explain the cash shortage. Obviated the need for the employee to spend his own money and then refunded some time later.
Alternatively, when the ticket itself was required to be retained for some purpose and had been bought for cash, a statement of this fact to the ticket collector at final destination would result in the ticket being endorsed as used and returned to the customer.
 

CyrusWuff

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Rail Warrants are still around, though now generally only used by the MOD for Season Tickets, and things like Social Services, Prisons, Courts, and the Probation Service.

Companies that would previously have used warrants have generally moved to using Travel Management Companies, Online Retailers or just buying tickets on the day of travel.
 

PG

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Alternatively, when the ticket itself was required to be retained for some purpose and had been bought for cash, a statement of this fact to the ticket collector at final destination would result in the ticket being endorsed as used and returned to the customer.
Which hopefully should still be the case nowadays. In extremis possibly involving opening up the barrier to retrieve the ticket if the gateline operator has no way of endorsing the ticket, though I'd have thought tearing it in half would suffice.
 

Merle Haggard

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Rail Warrants are still around, though now generally only used by the MOD for Season Tickets, and things like Social Services, Prisons, Courts, and the Probation Service.

Companies that would previously have used warrants have generally moved to using Travel Management Companies, Online Retailers or just buying tickets on the day of travel.

I didn't know that, thought that they went out with B.R..

Interestingly, although they removed the risk to the employer of the employee fraudulently reclaiming more than had been expended, the system gave an opportunity for fraud by the booking clerk - although, in those days, being caught would result in instant dismissal without recourse to any appeal.

Manned barriers did not always manage to ensure those with devious intent always gave up their tickets. There were refund claims (which could then be made, and instantly settled, at the booking office) on return tickets when only the outward half was cancelled, the reason being the assertion that 'I returned by car'. Never having been offered a lift home when in a distant town myself I had a cynical view of this claim. Some satisfaction could be obtained, however, to view the look of surprise when the calculation was made; in the case of, for instance, a day return the refund was for the difference between the price of that and a single (not, as was sometimes expected, of half of the price) to which was added the administration charge. Because the difference in price between the two was small and the admin. charge significant, usually the total was a negative amount (i.e., the passenger owed us some cash) but I always offered, as a gesture of goodwill, to waive this charge :lol:
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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Quite - there is something of a culture of self-importance among some railway staff, and aspects of the railways generally.
I couldn’t agree more and this seems to have increased even more since COVID-19. It isn’t pleasant for the customer.

I have had my ticket torn accidentally and was accused of doing it on purpose at first, for similar reasons to what the OP has suggested here.

Personally as far as re-using tickets go, it’s not right but I wish they would at least create a ranger or unlimited travel ticket if it isn’t allowed. I don’t mean a season. I would use a one day ticket like that very much, not only for train haulages but non-enthusiast purposes to, such as if I was booked into a hotel just outside a city centre and wanted to make three or four back and forth trips a day. Even if buying several returns was cheap it’d be far easier to have one ticket.
 
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