DFDS launch "brexit bypass" Rosslare-Dunkerque freight ferry route

[Gloster]

For holidaymakers & private travel between Eire and the mainland a long ferry trip be very enjoyable, much better than two ferries and lots of driving in between

But will the new services really cater to the tourist market? Will there be enough to keep a family happy, or will it just be a self-service restaurant, a small cafe/lounge, an even smaller shop and - for entertainment - a couple of fruit machines. The ferry companies are not going to turn the space and staff time over to such things unless there are sufficiently large numbers of such passengers to justify it, something I doubt. There will always be a few who are happy to doze or read on their bunk in what is likely to be a fairly basic cabin, but large numbers of them?

 

[BayPaul]

But will the new services really cater to the tourist market? Will there be enough to keep a family happy, or will it just be a self-service restaurant, a small cafe/lounge, an even smaller shop and - for entertainment - a couple of fruit machines. The ferry companies are not going to turn the space and staff time over to such things unless there are sufficiently large numbers of such passengers to justify it, something I doubt. There will always be a few who are happy to doze or read on their bunk in what is likely to be a fairly basic cabin, but large numbers of them?

The old services cater well to this market, the Irish Ferries (WB Yates) and Brittany Ferries (Pont Aven and Armorique) ships in particular are excellent, with proper cruise facilities. I used to work on the route and it was packed with tourists in the summer.

 

[Gloster]

The old services cater well to this market, the Irish Ferries (WB Yates) and Brittany Ferries (Pont Aven and Armorique) ships in particular are excellent, with proper cruise facilities. I used to work on the route and it was packed with tourists in the summer.

True, but is there enough potential traffic available to make it worth the new operators trying to cater for it? Or would they be better just sticking to lorries with or without accompanying drivers, and leave the tourists to the existing operators?

 

[BayPaul]

True, but is there enough potential traffic available to make it worth the new operators trying to cater for it? Or would they be better just sticking to lorries with or without accompanying drivers, and leave the tourists to the existing operators?

I think they will stick to freight only TBH. CLDN ships are limited to 12 pax anyway, and the DFDS service, although well timed for freight, as it gives the drivers a full 24 hour rest break, for tourists it doesn't make sense. If Stena can find a Visentini ro-pax for their second ship, I could see them making a go of a daily Rosslare-Cherbourg route and opening it for passengers as well, as that would be a simple expansion of their existing route

 

[paul1609]

I think that passenger traffic would be very seasonal because of the weather, the various traffic seperation schemes mean that an awful lot of a France to Ireland route is likely to be through open ocean conditions. The ships wont be hanging around either to keep to schedule. Dublin to Dunkirk is around 500 nautical miles. Ultimately once brexit settles down I think the fuel costs mean that a lot of these new ferry routes wont survive.

 

[richw]

Obviously there are question marks as to how sustainable it all is

The rates currently being charged vary between £1200 per unit to £1800 per unit depending on route/operator. Dfds from Dunkirk reporting average 60 units a trip and they are the most expensive.

 

[BayPaul]

I think that passenger traffic would be very seasonal because of the weather, the various traffic seperation schemes mean that an awful lot of a France to Ireland route is likely to be through open ocean conditions. The ships wont be hanging around either to keep to schedule. Dublin to Dunkirk is around 500 nautical miles. Ultimately once brexit settles down I think the fuel costs mean that a lot of these new ferry routes wont survive.

Very much so - when I worked onboard we frequently had more crew than passengers onboard in the winter. Brittany Ferries only operate in the summer on their cruise ferry routes (but have started early this year for freight only).

 

[craigybagel]

Surely the issue is what the percentage of the Irish- UK ferry traffic goes on to the EU and vice versa. Obviously Im a regular on the M20 and whilst yes I do see Irish Lorries I wouldnt say they are a very high proportion of the Kent to EU traffic.

Don't forget there's also the EU registered trucks, it's not just Irish trucks that use the land bridge.

I suspect as well there's also going to be a reduction in NI - ROI - GB traffic. There are many flows where the quickest route from a place in North Ireland to one on Great Britain is via Dublin. This traffic now might be more likely to travel via Belfast or Warrenpoint to keep the paperwork down, even if the milage is slightly higher.

In any case, for routes like P&Is Liverpool services or Stena through Fishguard that are already thought to be marginal even a small reduction in traffic could be a death sentence.

True, but is there enough potential traffic available to make it worth the new operators trying to cater for it? Or would they be better just sticking to lorries with or without accompanying drivers, and leave the tourists to the existing operators?

As long as the ferries are able to fill themselves with freight traffic, there's no need to bother offering to passengers as well. So far that seems to be the case.

The rates currently being charged vary between £1200 per unit to £1800 per unit depending on route/operator. Dfds from Dunkirk reporting average 60 units a trip and they are the most expensive.

Thanks. I'm sure I read somewhere that the DFDS break even figure requires a pretty high load as well - though with the longest journey them charging more sense justifiable anyway.

 

[richw]

Thanks. I'm sure I read somewhere that the DFDS break even figure requires a pretty high load as well - though with the longest journey them charging more sense justifiable anyway.

The Dunkirk route has the benefit over the more western ports that the crossing gives a 24 hour driver rest for accompanied freight drivers

 

[richw]

DFDS have announced that a 4th ferry will be added to their France- Ireland route from April due to its success.

On the 1st April, we will introduce a fourth freight ferry to the direct ferry service between Rosslare Europort in Ireland and the Grand Port of Dunkerque in Northern France.
The freight ferry will be DFDS’ “Ark Dania” with capacity of 188 truck units (including 12 driver accompanied units and 176 trailers).
The direct service is favoured by haulage companies because it offers greater efficiency and more capacity as it avoids the timely delays, border checks and complicated paperwork using the UK as a land-bridge

Rosslare – Dunkirk ferry route expands capacity

DFDS introduces a fourth freight ferry on the Rosslare – Dunkirk route

social.dfds.com

#dfds #fourthferry #ArkDania #Ireland #france

Source ‘DFDS - shipping and logistics’ Facebook page. Sorry I can’t copy paste url from my Facebook on mobile.

 

[BayPaul]

Ark Dania is an interesting choice - she is only a 12 passenger pure freight ferry, while the other 3 vessels have significant accommodation for accompanied drivers, which appeared to be the main market for this route. I would guess that it was all that DFDS have available at short notice, but it could be an indication that the hauliers have begun to change their practices, and there is a shift to unaccompanied freight on the ex-landbridge trade - i.e. rather than one driver taking the load all the way from Ireland to Europe (previously via the UK), more hauliers now have separate drivers for the Ireland and mainland legs.

 

[richw]

I understood Ireland to Spain and Brittany was predominantly unaccompanied. I read somewhere that a major french haulier had partnered with a major Irish haulier to haul each other’s loads either side of the ferry.
I imagine DFDS would be aware of the load factors of their 3 ships already to calculate if the market was there for a fourth vessel that is just unaccompanied

 

[BayPaul]

I understood Ireland to Spain and Brittany was predominantly unaccompanied. I read somewhere that a major french haulier had partnered with a major Irish haulier to haul each other’s loads either side of the ferry.
I imagine DFDS would be aware of the load factors of their 3 ships already to calculate if the market was there for a fourth vessel that is just unaccompanied

That would certainly make sense - and yes I have no doubt that DFDS knows what they are up to!

 

[berneyarms]

I don't think anyone saw this one coming - Irish Ferries to launch a Dover-Calais service.

Irish Ferries launches new Dover-Calais route

Shares in Irish Ferries, which is owned by Irish Continental Group, sailed 7.9% higher in Dublin today after it said it will start a new service on the Dover to Calais route from June.

www.rte.ie

Irish Ferries launches new Dover-Calais route and new ferry for Rosslare-Pembroke route​

Irish Ferries, a subsidiary of Irish Continental Group, is to start a new service on the Dover to Calais route from June.

Irish Ferries said it will use the Isle of Inishmore ferry on the route. It said that additional capacity will be added in the coming months.

It said that as part of its commitment to the movement of freight on and off the island of Ireland, the additional capacity on the Dover-Calais route will significantly strengthen the capacity and reliability of the landbridge for exporters and importers.

Hauliers will now have one operator providing an inclusive service on the Dublin-Holyhead, Rosslare-Pembroke and Dover-Calais routes.

This will allow exporters and importers easier, cheaper, and quicker access to European markets via the Common Transit Convention, Irish Ferries said.

Irish Ferries also said it intends to offer passenger services on the route, adding that the initial level of passenger services offered will be dependent on the easing of Covid-19 travel restrictions.



Doug Bannister, chief executive of Port of Dover, said today's news gives the millions of customers across the UK and the Republic of Ireland who value the intrinsic benefits of the shortest sea crossing to Europe, the prospect of even more choice.

"We believe the inclusive landbridge product will be popular with Irish exporters and will strengthen the just in time supply chain into the European Union," Mr Bannister said.

"This is a clear signal of market confidence in the Dover route and will complement the resilient services currently provided," he added.

Jean-Marc Puissesseau, Chairman of Port of Calais, said the commencement of the service operated by Irish Ferries emphasises the strategic position of the port of Calais in the trade between Ireland, the UK and the continent.

Irish Ferries also said today it would add the RoRo passenger ferry Blue Star 1 to its Rosslare to Pembroke Dock route.

The ship is being chartered from the Attica Group and delivery is expected early next month.

Blue Star 1 was built in 2000 by the Van der Giessen de Noord shipyard in the Netherlands, the same shipyard that in 1997 built Irish Ferries Isle of Inishmore.

The Blue Star 1 has the capacity to carry up to 1,500 passengers, 100 freight vehicles and up to 700 cars depending on freight volume.

Andrew Sheen, Irish Ferries Managing Director, said the new ship will be the fastest RoRo Passenger ship operating between Britain and Ireland, which will help ensure schedule integrity.

"The introduction of this ship underlines our commitment to the Rosslare to Pembroke route, the primary shipping corridor between Ireland and South Wales," Mr Sheen said.

"It also underlines our commitment to the significant contribution that this route makes in facilitating trade for both exporters and importers as well as facilitating essential passenger movements and future tourists as the country re-opens post Covid-19," he added.

 

[richw]

Assuming it will mean they can offer a ‘through’ ticket on the land bridge option.

 

[alex397]

Quite surprised about that, especially as there is already DFDS and P&O on this route.
Id like to see another route from Dover launched, but Calais of course makes the most sense as it is the shortest distance from Dover.

 

[berneyarms]

Quite surprised about that, especially as there is already DFDS and P&O on this route.
Id like to see another route from Dover launched, but Calais of course makes the most sense as it is the shortest distance from Dover.

As above it appears that the primary purpose will be marketing it as a through route from Ireland to Europe via the Landbridge through Holyhead.

 

[BayPaul]

I don't think anyone saw this one coming - Irish Ferries to launch a Dover-Calais service.

Irish Ferries launches new Dover-Calais route

Shares in Irish Ferries, which is owned by Irish Continental Group, sailed 7.9% higher in Dublin today after it said it will start a new service on the Dover to Calais route from June.

www.rte.ie

Wow! I saw rumours they were chartering Blue Star 1 - I assumed it was for an extra Dublin - Cherbourg ship or similar. This does seem a bit crazy - I understand most hauliers have standing accounts with DFDS, Eurotunnel and P&O, so they can just drive to Kent and take the most efficient route - I can't see how a 4 times daily service, which would be about the max they could offer with Inishmore would really be able to compete with that, even with through tickets - I guess they could try to time to match the arrivals in Holyhead + the driving time, but I would have thought the driving time was too variable for that to work.

Good luck to them, though. They are an ambitious company, and I wonder if this is less to do with the through services, and more that they have seen an opportunity in Dover - there traditionally have normally been three operators on the route, so if they can run the service well there probably is space. Inishmore is pretty suitable for the route, though they would need at least one more ship to run the route competitively.

 

[Flying Snail]

Wow! I saw rumours they were chartering Blue Star 1 - I assumed it was for an extra Dublin - Cherbourg ship or similar. This does seem a bit crazy - I understand most hauliers have standing accounts with DFDS, Eurotunnel and P&O, so they can just drive to Kent and take the most efficient route - I can't see how a 4 times daily service, which would be about the max they could offer with Inishmore would really be able to compete with that, even with through tickets - I guess they could try to time to match the arrivals in Holyhead + the driving time, but I would have thought the driving time was too variable for that to work.

Good luck to them, though. They are an ambitious company, and I wonder if this is less to do with the through services, and more that they have seen an opportunity in Dover - there traditionally have normally been three operators on the route, so if they can run the service well there probably is space. Inishmore is pretty suitable for the route, though they would need at least one more ship to run the route competitively.

According to reports they are planning on adding two more ships, no announcement what these are though.

There is no way this could be commercially viable with just landbridge traffic to/from Ireland so they definitely will be looking for a slice of the UK-France market as well.

Whatever they are at it is a big risk, in comparison to P&O and especially DFDS they are a very small company, this going badly wrong could be a disaster for them.

Unconfirmed reports also that they will be taking foot passengers, maybe as they will be looking to build custom they might even be proactive and try to provide a more useful service by running shuttles to/from Dover and Calais towns/rail stations. All just speculation at this point but it would be good if there was a significantly better passenger service on this route.

Funnily enough there were rumours late last year about P&Os now laid-up former Dover-Calais ships Pride of Burgundy and Pride of Calais being sold to Irish Ferries, rumours which P&O went out of their way to publicly deny. Maybe just an odd coincidence but considering that pair are almost useless for anything other than the Dover-Calais route...

 

[paul1609]

Unconfirmed reports also that they will be taking foot passengers, maybe as they will be looking to build custom they might even be proactive and try to provide a more useful service by running shuttles to/from Dover and Calais towns/rail stations. All just speculation at this point but it would be good if there was a significantly better passenger service on this route.

They may well be taking foot passengers but the rail/sail market is far too small to support dedicated bus links. The Dover to Port Bus in its last few years had so few passengers that on average they would have fitted in to one taxi. The majority of services ran empty. In Calais the number 19 bus leaves every 20 mins from the roundabout outside the ferry terminal to the SNCF station. You go up the ramp at the end of the ferry terminal building around the back of the car park its about 300 metres walk. Southeastern pre-covid only sold about 2 to 300 Calais tickets a year from all stations once the HS1 issue had been resolved.

 

[Aictos]

I've never used the Calais to Dover route to the best of my knowledge so how long does the journey take?

Equally when there was a regular service between Dover and Calais pre Eurostar, how busy were the ferries with the duty free day trippers? Could they as we have now left the EU form a source of income on top of the income from the freight?

I've done Portsmouth to Cherbourg on a school trip over 26 years ago! So no idea on the Dover to Calais route.

 

[craigybagel]

I'd be very surprised if IF went after foot passengers. With an already limited market catered for by P&O it's hard to see how the revenue would make up for the costs. Plus Isle of Inishmore doesn't have a rear passenger gangway like the purpose built Dover ships meaning the bus transfer bus would have to actually travel on the ferry itself (or would have to navigate around the other vehicles getting loaded and unloaded).

Put it this way - it would be a lot easier for DFDS to do it, at least on their Calais services, and yet they don't. So why would IF?

 

[Aictos]

I'd be very surprised if IF went after foot passengers. With an already limited market catered for by P&O it's hard to see how the revenue would make up for the costs. Plus Isle of Inishmore doesn't have a rear passenger gangway like the purpose built Dover ships meaning the bus transfer bus would have to actually travel on the ferry itself (or would have to navigate around the other vehicles getting loaded and unloaded).

Put it this way - it would be a lot easier for DFDS to do it, at least on their Calais services, and yet they don't. So why would IF?

The only reason I ask is they should focus more on freight but still be able to take foot passengers which although won't be much revenue, is still better then no revenue.

I've also looked at both DFDS and PO Ferries for foot passengers and neither cater for day trippers, the former doesn't accept foot passengers even in Oct while the latter doesn't seem to do day trips.

 

[craigybagel]

The only reason I ask is they should focus more on freight but still be able to take foot passengers which although won't be much revenue, is still better then no revenue.

I've also looked at both DFDS and PO Ferries for foot passengers and neither cater for day trippers, the former doesn't accept foot passengers even in Oct while the latter doesn't seem to do day trips.

A little revenue is worse then no revenue if the extra costs involved are greater then that extra revenue. Extending the service to foot passengers would not come without extra costs to IF, costs that I reckon they'd struggle to recoup.

 

[Aictos]

A little revenue is worse then no revenue if the extra costs involved are greater then that extra revenue. Extending the service to foot passengers would not come without extra costs to IF, costs that I reckon they'd struggle to recoup.

Fair enough, I was wrong with my thinking.

 

[BayPaul]

I've never used the Calais to Dover route to the best of my knowledge so how long does the journey take?

90 minutes

 

[Aictos]

90 minutes

I wonder why PO Ferries doesn't show same day tickets then for the route if the journey time is just 90 minutes, surely that's enough time to spend the day in Calais?

 

[paul1609]

The only reason I ask is they should focus more on freight but still be able to take foot passengers which although won't be much revenue, is still better then no revenue.

I've also looked at both DFDS and PO Ferries for foot passengers and neither cater for day trippers, the former doesn't accept foot passengers even in Oct while the latter doesn't seem to do day trips.

Pre-covid P&O did have day/short break foot passenger fares and there were often special offers in the local papers. There were also day rail/sail tickets to Calais from most stations up to London but they have not been very popular in recent years as I stated earlier in the thread. Calais its self has been in decline as a destination because of problems with the refugees around the ferry port and channel tunnel. Its a shame because there are a lot of nice places just down the coast and the French people in this area are generally very friendly and helpful towards the British. I think most Kent Coast people tend to use Le Shuttle now you can get really good offers on the early trains and use Tesco vouchers to pay for them.