Differences in style/leadership/etc between the RMT and ASLEF

[Journeyman]

My dad was born into abject poverty in 1933, and would appear to be the sort of person you'd expect to naturally vote Labour. Right up until his death in 1995, he voted Tory every single time, despite it blindingly obviously not doing him much good at all. However, I can completely understand why he did it.

He was a proud man who believed in hard work. He left school at fifteen with no qualifications, and he never had a particularly well paid job, but he managed to afford to buy a house, a car and (just about) support his family. I was briefly privately educated and my parents moved heaven and earth to try and get me into the best school possible. He made some foolish decisions money-wise, but tried to buy into Thatcher's vision of the property and share owning democracy. I think he was somewhat misguided, and it drove him to an early grave with little more than a pot to piss in, but there you go.

The point I'm making here is that he was aspirational, and wanted a better life than the one he was born into, and he saw voting Conservative as the best way to achieve that. He didn't want handouts, he didn't want a council house, and he didn't want to be part of a union that just seemed to destroy everything for trivial reasons. To be fair, back in the seventies, he had a point there. He considered those on the hard left - the sort of organisation that the RMT supports today - to be completely beyond the pale and the complete antithesis of his value system.

I've never voted Conservative in my life, and never intend to because they've crossed far too many red lines in my opinion, and are leading us to absolute disaster with the kind of Brexit we're heading for, but I can understand their appeal to the sort of man my dad was. I suspect if he'd lived longer, he might have supported Blair - my mum certainly did - because Blair recognised the aspirations that a lot of working class people have to better themselves, and the world their kids will inherit.

Corbyn came along and pissed all over that - promising loads of freebies and preaching class war and revenge on the rich is not what people like my dad want. They want to be able to claim a stake in society for themselves, off their own backs.

However obnoxious I find the Tories to be, I won't judge anyone who votes for them, whatever their background, because people are motivated by different things and want different things for themselves and their families. Most people want the world to be better, and will vote accordingly for the party they think will deliver on that.

There's a lot about my dad I don't want to emulate, but I admire his basic decency, and the good start he struggled to make sure I got in life. I'm better off than he ever was, so he must have got a few things right.

I appreciate this is rather long and a bit tangential, but I post it in response to the "turkeys voting for Christmas" comments about those deemed working class voting Tory.

 

[Egg Centric]

What do you want, names?

This is all I'll say:


I just found it to be an odd/amusing situation. I like the blokes, but I don't know how I'd reconcile that if it were me, though I was very glad they supported the industrial action! But it's precisely why I wouldn't actively advocate/preach for any political party, though particularly the Tories as rail staff, as how can you trust them, or any political party, that much to think they won't actively act against you?

We as staff have done well out of the Tories, but it's not like that was intended, it was an accident. Our pay was never intended to be inflated like it has been under privatisation, it was never anticipated our T&Cs (for 'new entrants' post BR) would be protected in the long term. We've done well out of a botched system. I'm one of those who points out to people what we've gained from Privatisation. Nationalisation makes sense, but more for the public than us. I don't disagree regarding the Unions positions, but their thinking is at least theoretically for 'the greater good', even if it does come with its own risks, which I believe they think they'll be able to control.

Mate, your position makes no sense but it's a common one and I see the misconception so let me state things plainly.

Us Tories want people to do well. Same as (sensible, not Corbynites) Labour guys do. We just have different beliefs about how that's achieved. We want you to make money. We want you to have a high salary.

In the case of guards in particular, then yes, sure we may want DOR if it's more efficient. But we don't want the guard on the dole or selling his body to pay the rent in his terraced flat. We want the guard doing a similarly skilled job elsewhere on the railway (driver?) and making more money than they did as a guard! Or if it's all they've known for decades and they're approaching retirement, then a nice transitional arrangement where they're a ticket seller or something on the same wages or better than as a guard.

We're not heartless bastards out for enriching fatcats. Just the mere fact that most of this country isn't a fatcat should demonstrate that quite clearly.

 

[LowLevel]

Mate, your position makes no sense but it's a common one and I see the misconception so let me state things plainly.

Us Tories want people to do well. Same as (sensible, not Corbynites) Labour guys do. We just have different beliefs about how that's achieved. We want you to make money. We want you to have a high salary.

In the case of guards in particular, then yes, sure we may want DOR if it's more efficient. But we don't want the guard on the dole or selling his body to pay the rent in his terraced flat. We want the guard doing a similarly skilled job elsewhere on the railway (driver?) and making more money than they did as a guard! Or if it's all they've known for decades and they're approaching retirement, then a nice transitional arrangement where they're a ticket seller or something on the same wages or better than as a guard.

We're not heartless bastards out for enriching fatcats. Just the mere fact that most of this country isn't a fatcat should demonstrate that quite clearly.

Guards don't necessarily make good drivers and drivers don't necessarily make good guards. It is a common misconception that it's easy to switch people between the two jobs.

Driving is largely process based with an element of recognising and responding to risks and reading the way a machine is operating and making alterations accordingly. It's about excellent recall skills and physical reactions.

Being a guard is a lot more about thinking on your feet and innovation. Most of the job is effectively managing human factors whilst also being able to function well in a crisis.

The two only really come together when it comes to completing repetitive tasks effectively and responding to emergency situations.

A lot of drivers are the opposite of "people persons". On the other hand, despite naturally being a bit of an introvert, I am hugely skilled at bringing people around to my way of thinking as a guard particularly when everything is collapsing around them without them noticing I'm doing it (if I was to totally change career, which I don't want to, I would probably like to work as a police officer) and it is a matter of record on my personal file that those kind of interventions have had significant impacts both for my employer and my customers. I could earn a lot more money sat in a cab driving a train but you would lose a lot of my key skills.

 

[the sniper]

I appreciate this is rather long and a bit tangential, but I post it in response to the "turkeys voting for Christmas" comments about those deemed working class voting Tory.

Which, taking into account the context of the full sentence or the subsequent further clarification I've provided in later posts, is a colourful but inaccurate interpretation of what was said. Class is irrelevant.

Mate, your position makes no sense but it's a common one and I see the misconception so let me state things plainly.

Us Tories want people to do well. Same as (sensible, not Corbynites) Labour guys do. We just have different beliefs about how that's achieved. We want you to make money. We want you to have a high salary.

In the case of guards in particular, then yes, sure we may want DOR if it's more efficient. But we don't want the guard on the dole or selling his body to pay the rent in his terraced flat. We want the guard doing a similarly skilled job elsewhere on the railway (driver?) and making more money than they did as a guard! Or if it's all they've known for decades and they're approaching retirement, then a nice transitional arrangement where they're a ticket seller or something on the same wages or better than as a guard.

We're not heartless bastards out for enriching fatcats. Just the mere fact that most of this country isn't a fatcat should demonstrate that quite clearly.

I must just lack the ideological vision to overlook the immediate issue of any specifically targeted worker supporting any party that has quite clearly engaged in a prolonged, focused campaign to specifically undermine a group of their colleagues or who's leader has made repeated threats to eliminate the jobs of people with whom I am in a union. Maybe I should just view the union as being akin to purchasing an issuance policy from a bank in case I screw up, or an expensive magazine subscription that I can get angry about. But perhaps foolishly, I willingly entered into the terms of being a union member and show (don't get triggered folks, dirty word coming) solidarity to my colleagues.

Again, I just find it funny. No hard feelings. Under Mr Johnson's analogy in the link above, the Prison Guards are voting for the "Prisoners" to take control of the Prison. I'm sure the Prison Guards will find good jobs elsewhere, so it doesn't really matter.

If you're in the union, you are the union, whether you like it or not. You're free to go to the branch meeting and argue that we should refocus the union on taking "the whole economy forward" rather than focusing on protecting our own positions. I'm sure it'd be an interesting debate. Maybe we should align the union with the Conservative Party and send funds their way, then they'd leave us alone and I could vote for them too.

 

[father_jack]

Mick Cash gone

 

[Journeyman]

Mick Cash gone

Wow. Wonder if they'll finally get someone with an ounce of sense? I won't hold my breath.

 

[ainsworth74]

Wow. Wonder if they'll finally get someone with an ounce of sense? I won't hold my breath.

Be careful what you wish for. I have the sense that the "factional groupings" he refers to are within the National Executive Committee of the RMT and are a problem because they are the extreme elements. I would therefore be somewhat concerned what might emerge if such individuals continue to get more control over the Union.

 

[Journeyman]

Be careful what you wish for. I have the sense that the "factional groupings" he refers to are within the National Executive Committee of the RMT and are a problem because they are the extreme elements. I would therefore be somewhat concerned what might emerge if such individuals continue to get more control over the Union.

Yeah, that thought crossed my mind. Whoever emerges is likely to have some very hard-left views.

 

[Sunset route]

Wow. Wonder if they'll finally get someone with an ounce of sense? I won't hold my breath.

I was never a great fan of Mick Cash in my capacity as either just an ordinary member or while serving as a local REP. But this rings alarms bells all the way as a hard left stance by the militants will lose is members hand of fists if they push that type of agenda.

 

[father_jack]

I was never a great fan of Mick Cash in my capacity as either just an ordinary member or while serving as a local REP.

I think that's a common consensus amongst members and reps. Mick did well as Bob Crow's right hand man but he is/was certainly no Bob.

But this rings alarms bells all the way as a hard left stance by the militants will lose is members hand over fists if they push that type of agenda.

However Mick was elected fairly and squarely by the membership but there's no doubt that those who have "deposed" him did not respect the ballot result. And therein lies the huge breakdown in respect of democracy. It's a pity TSSA are so impotent because they would certainly gain members from this fiasco.

 

[6Z09]

They have very different membership.
The RMT representing many lower paid staff, so many more issues arise for the RMT than are likely to arise amongst ASLEF members who are in Driving grades .

 

[mpthomson]

I think that's a common consensus amongst members and reps. Mick did well as Bob Crow's right hand man but he is/was certainly no Bob.

However Mick was elected fairly and squarely by the membership but there's no doubt that those who have "deposed" him did not respect the ballot result. And therein lies the huge breakdown in respect of democracy. It's a pity TSSA are so impotent because they would certainly gain members from this fiasco.

TSSA are at least as far left as a lot of the RMT National Exec. They're one of the unions who have said that they'll remove funding from Labour unless Corbyn is reinstated.

 

[Dunfanaghy Rd]

Didn't ASLEF have a similar bust-up some years ago? GS voted in by the membership and driven out by the Executive. I think the name was Sean Brady, but no doubt my memory has failed me (again!).
Pat

 

[Wyrleybart]

Didn't ASLEF have a similar bust-up some years ago? GS voted in by the membership and driven out by the Executive. I think the name was Sean Brady, but no doubt my memory has failed me (again!).
Pat

The infamous barbecue