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Differences in style/leadership/etc between the RMT and ASLEF

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Randomer

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They should not be called a union, a better description would be conservative club.

Sorry but the primary purpose of a union is the betterment of conditions for its members. Be that through pay negotiations, working conditions, representation as part of any discipline process, enhanced employment opportunities for member not currently employed or more political actions involving things that impact on the other three. Just because a union does this in a way that some would find unpalatable in terms of labour relations for non-members doesn't mean the union is not being effective for its primary constituents.

That does not mean a Union can't choose to take a stance more in line with a policy in the international labour movement if its members choose to do so. However, it does mean that generally a union has to get its members opinion of doing so if it will disadvantage them.

To be clear I'm not saying unions can't take political stances on issues that do not directly involve members but saying that they aren't a union because they have been historically more effective in advocating for its primary concern post privatisation is disingenuous.
 
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dctraindriver

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Sorry but the primary purpose of a union is the betterment of conditions for its members. Be that through pay negotiations, working conditions, representation as part of any discipline process, enhanced employment opportunities for member not currently employed or more political actions involving things that impact on the other three. Just because a union does this in a way that some would find unpalatable in terms of labour relations for non-members doesn't mean the union is not being effective for its primary constituents.

That does not mean a Union can't choose to take a stance more in line with a policy in the international labour movement if its members choose to do so. However, it does mean that generally a union has to get its members opinion of doing so if it will disadvantage them.

To be clear I'm not saying unions can't take political stances on issues that do not directly involve members but saying that they aren't a union because they have been historically more effective in advocating for its primary concern post privatisation is disingenuous.

Blimey, what a well written reply.
 

dk1

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ASLEF do not want nationalisation. They would loose all the power they have, that which has seen massive increases in salaries way beyond any other rail workers salaries.

ASLEF tried to demand massive pay rises under nationalisation and Sir Peter Parker told them to get back to work otherwise he would shut the railway down.
Are you referring to the flexible rostering dispute of 1982? If so that was rather unprecedented.
 

dk1

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It was. The redundancy letters were printed though.
Remember it well seeing the station full of trains days on end as I went to school. On the plus side many of the railways staff frequented my parents public house & spent much more time (& money) in there whilst not working.
 

Carntyne

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ASLEF is a competent organisation, RMT is not. That's the main difference.

RMT spend too much time banging on about nationalisation, and not enough time representing its members.
 

Scottychoo

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Or if in doubt the old ASLEF favourite of "the members won't like the deal but we will agree it anyway and hope they will have forgotten in a year - if they really, really won't like it best not even have a referendum" :lol:
What he said
 

Gems

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ASLEF are only interested in what they can get out of it for their members. That's fair enough. But they know nationalisation will end the gravy train. ASLEF are not a proper trades union in my view. They have stitched up other grades far too often for my liking.

The RMT is led by a manchild. Sending out emails crying about how stressed he was because his executive council was trying to oust him. Mick Cash is a idiot. Come out into the field Mick and see how your members are stressed about working trains in a pandemic full of school kids, college students, and Saturday night drunks. Mick Cash protects the interests of Mick Cash and his loony left leanings. Like all lefties they are easily bought and sold, and the prices is never that high.
 
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Bald Rick

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ASLEF are only interested in what they can get out of it for their members. That's fair enough. But they know privatisation will end the gravy train. ASLEF are not a proper trades union in my view. They have stitched up other grades far too often for my liking.

The RMT is led by a manchild. Sending out emails crying about how stressed he was because his executive council was trying to oust him. Mick Cash is a idiot. Come out into the field Mick and see how your members are stressed about working trains in a pandemic full of school kids, college students, and Saturday night drunks. Mick Cash protects the interests of Mick Cash and his loony left leanings. Like all lefties they are easily bought and sold, and the prices is never that high.

I think that’s unfair on Cash. Whilst he is (obviously) left leaning, his issue is trying to contain the (very) ‘loony left’ in the National Exec Committee. If you want to see a model for diversity, have a look at the NEC for how it should not be done. It’s hardly surprising they come out with what they do, as they are in a complete bubble.
 

swt_passenger

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ASLEF are only interested in what they can get out of it for their members. That's fair enough. But they know privatisation will end the gravy train. ASLEF are not a proper trades union in my view. They have stitched up other grades far too often for my liking.
I think you meant “nationalisation”?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Modern Railways (Oct, p89) reports a major bust-up within the RMT, and the resignation of Mick Lynch (Asst Gen Sec).
It also reports Gen Sec Mick Cash is on sick leave, as a result of "harassment and bullying by the union's National Executive Committee".
It seems all is not well at the RMT.
 

dk1

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Modern Railways (Oct, p89) reports a major bust-up within the RMT, and the resignation of Mick Lynch (Asst Gen Sec).
It also reports Gen Sec Mick Cash is on sick leave, as a result of "harassment and bullying by the union's National Executive Committee".
It seems all is not well at the RMT.
Got your copy early mate. Hopefully mine is in tomorrows post.
 

Bald Rick

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Modern Railways (Oct, p89) reports a major bust-up within the RMT, and the resignation of Mick Lynch (Asst Gen Sec).
It also reports Gen Sec Mick Cash is on sick leave, as a result of "harassment and bullying by the union's National Executive Committee".
It seems all is not well at the RMT.

Cash is back, and Lynch is on sick leave.
 

Dunfanaghy Rd

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My abiding memory of my time in the RMT was the full page in every month's magazine extolling the virtues of Cuba (socialist paradise, and all that rot). Quite what that had to do with EWS and its staff was, and remains, a mystery. Got promoted, moved across into TSSA and, guess what, Cuba again. What is it with these guys?
Pat
 

Railwaysceptic

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Modern Railways (Oct, p89) reports a major bust-up within the RMT, and the resignation of Mick Lynch (Asst Gen Sec).
It also reports Gen Sec Mick Cash is on sick leave, as a result of "harassment and bullying by the union's National Executive Committee".
It seems all is not well at the RMT.
What he goes on to say is more interesting and incisive.
 

father_jack

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What he goes on to say is more interesting and incisive.
See here http://howiescorner.blogspot.com/2020/09/the-rmt-union-at-breaking-point.html?m=1
It seems that in-fighting between the leaders of the RMT union has reached crisis levels as the hard left dominated National Executive continue to undermine both the General Secretary Mick Cash and the Assistant General Secretary Michael Lynch.

The following letter outlines the situation and shows the effect that the activities of the hard left have had on one of the unions leading directly elected members. The involvement of the rather unpleasant Steve Hedley comes as no surprise.

Having had dealings with the far-left at various levels in the main civil service union PCS I empathise with both Mick Cash and Michael Lynch. The way these people behave does have an effect on one's health. The hard left are an extremely intolerant and authoratarian tendency with no time for dissent or any difference of opinion. It's why no matter how they define themselves a form of Stalinism is always inevitable.
(Sorry mods, can't quote the pdfs in the post)
 

A0wen

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I think that’s unfair on Cash. Whilst he is (obviously) left leaning, his issue is trying to contain the (very) ‘loony left’ in the National Exec Committee. If you want to see a model for diversity, have a look at the NEC for how it should not be done. It’s hardly surprising they come out with what they do, as they are in a complete bubble.

But who elects the NEC (not just of the RMT but any union) ? The members of course. The problem is a large chunk of the membership isn't that interested in the union or their political positions, so don't bother voting in such elections and those that do are the 'extremists and nutters' who are trying to effect political change via their union.

In a different sector, I recall speaking to the shift manager of a warehouse, blunt Yorkshireman he was, his comment about the members of the T&G as it was at the time was 'they're only members of the union so they've got some protection to get themselves out of the ****' - basically not interested in the wider, national behaviour of their union.

Similar story in teaching - virtually all teachers are a member of a union for the legal protection they have as a necessity - but in many cases they have little or no interest in the union's actual political positions or behaviour.
 

Meerkat

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But who elects the NEC (not just of the RMT but any union) ? The members of course. The problem is a large chunk of the membership isn't that interested in the union or their political positions, so don't bother voting in such elections and those that do are the 'extremists and nutters' who are trying to effect political change via their union.

In a different sector, I recall speaking to the shift manager of a warehouse, blunt Yorkshireman he was, his comment about the members of the T&G as it was at the time was 'they're only members of the union so they've got some protection to get themselves out of the ****' - basically not interested in the wider, national behaviour of their union.

Similar story in teaching - virtually all teachers are a member of a union for the legal protection they have as a necessity - but in many cases they have little or no interest in the union's actual political positions or behaviour.
See Unite the Union. One of the most influential men in British politics, Len McCluskey, was elected by less than 60,000 people - the entire turnout was only 12%!
 

Bald Rick

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But who elects the NEC (not just of the RMT but any union) ? The members of course. The problem is a large chunk of the membership isn't that interested in the union or their political positions, so don't bother voting in such elections and those that do are the 'extremists and nutters' who are trying to effect political change via their union.

In a different sector, I recall speaking to the shift manager of a warehouse, blunt Yorkshireman he was, his comment about the members of the T&G as it was at the time was 'they're only members of the union so they've got some protection to get themselves out of the ****' - basically not interested in the wider, national behaviour of their union.

Similar story in teaching - virtually all teachers are a member of a union for the legal protection they have as a necessity - but in many cases they have little or no interest in the union's actual political positions or behaviour.

From my discussions with those in the RMT and ASLEF, it’s exactly the same. It’s effectively insurance for many.
 

A0wen

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From my discussions with those in the RMT and ASLEF, it’s exactly the same. It’s effectively insurance for many.

And therein lies the problem.

Arguably one further change to legislation around unions which could be made - though the unions would squeal like stuck pigs about it - would be to make elections to positions such as General Secretary and NEC levels be subject to a threshold i.e. needs at least 50% of the members to vote for the result to be legitimate.

The union reforms about strike ballots etc pushed through in the 80s were, and still are, noisily objected to by a few hard left nutters, but most sensible union leaders recognised it actually cleaned alot of things up and when they got a strike ballot passed it was a fairly good reflection of how their members felt, not because they had been press-ganged into voting for it on the factory gate at the behest of the local union convener.
 

whoosh

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In ASLEF there are:

Local Level Reps (LLRs or sometimes called LDC - Local Departmemtal Committee)
One member one vote for each position at each depot.

Company Council (sometimes called Divisional? Functional Council - DFC)
Elected via a controversially outdated 'block vote' whereby each branch votes to back a candidate and that candidate is then said to have ALL the members of that branch's vote. Members can ask for an individual vote, but it has to actually be returned or they are still counted as one of the block of the branch.
Big depots therefore carry a lot of weight as to who gets in.

Executive Committee - EC.
I can't remember how these are voted in.

General Secretary.
One member one vote.


As you can see, some areas are a hassle to get your voice heard as to who you'd like to back.

The block vote of Company Council reps comes up at every Annual Assembly of Delegates where changes to the union's rule book can be made, but it gets voted down every time.


Is the RMT similar does anyone know?
 

Mr Micawber

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And therein lies the problem.

Arguably one further change to legislation around unions which could be made - though the unions would squeal like stuck pigs about it - would be to make elections to positions such as General Secretary and NEC levels be subject to a threshold i.e. needs at least 50% of the members to vote for the result to be legitimate.

The union reforms about strike ballots etc pushed through in the 80s were, and still are, noisily objected to by a few hard left nutters, but most sensible union leaders recognised it actually cleaned alot of things up and when they got a strike ballot passed it was a fairly good reflection of how their members felt, not because they had been press-ganged into voting for it on the factory gate at the behest of the local union convener.

What do you propose happens if the 50% threshold is not achieved?
 

dk1

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If you get it electronically like I do and your time zone is 5 hours behind Greenwich/BST it means reading stuff very early. I got mine 9pm Wednesday evening and have already read the vast majority.
Arrived this morning through the Royal Mail :D
 

InOban

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As did mine, or rather this afternoon since it's years since our mail was delivered in the morning.
 

greatkingrat

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In ASLEF there are:

Local Level Reps (LLRs or sometimes called LDC - Local Departmemtal Committee)
One member one vote for each position at each depot.

Company Council (sometimes called Divisional? Functional Council - DFC)
Elected via a controversially outdated 'block vote' whereby each branch votes to back a candidate and that candidate is then said to have ALL the members of that branch's vote. Members can ask for an individual vote, but it has to actually be returned or they are still counted as one of the block of the branch.
Big depots therefore carry a lot of weight as to who gets in.

Maybe it varies at different TOCs but our DFC reps were elected by one member one vote, same as the local reps.
 
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