Discussion on systemic racism and inequality.

[Darandio]

Just playing devil's advocate. I'm no supporter of Trump but I don't think everything he did has been negative.

Mods note: Separated from this thread:

Donald Trump and the aftermath of his presidency

Donald Trump's inauguration takes place today. Thoughts?

www.railforums.co.uk

I'm not convinced. The majority of your recent replies in this thread are straight out of the Trump supporters playbook.

 

[ainsworth74]

but rather to get to the root of the problem and sort out why so many black people are turning to crime, probably due to unstable or broken family backgrounds, poor living conditions and drugs/alcohol problems, rather than racism.

And why, do you think, that Black Americans might find that they are more likely to have broken families, poor living conditions, drug issues and other social issues. Could it, just possibly, be because of racism? Wild thought I know but you may find it rather hard to do anything about those problems if you don't also acknowledge that racism both past and present has an awful lot to do with why they exist in the first place...

 

[DynamicSpirit]

So the side that is calling out entrenched racism and inequality is just as responsible as the side who says that systemic racism doesn't exist? Okay then.

I think it's a little more complex. One side is saying that systemic racism doesn't exist - which is clearly wrong. The other side is basically blaming everything on systemic racism - which is also wrong. The reality is going to be somewhere in between, with things like people's life choices also playing a role. Trump was totally wrong on the several occasions that he sought to excuse white supremacists, and then you have things like the Tulsa rally that was so moronically insensitively timed that you can't help wondering whether there was some direct racism motivating the plans. But on the other hand, personally I did feel a bit uneasy at the failure of many Democrats to - for example - unambiguously condemn the rioting and looting that followed George Floyd's death. And I wouldn't be surprised if that kind of thing was one contributing factor to why the predicted Blue Wave at the elections didn't happen in the end.

None of that of course changes that Trump is truly awful, and I'd choose Biden seeking to bring people together over Trump driving people apart by a mile any day.

 

[hst43102]

I'm not convinced. The majority of your recent replies in this thread are straight out of the Trump supporters playbook.

Honestly, I'm absolutely not a Trump supporter, but I try to see both sides of the picture, hence why I'm currently taking Trump's side in this discussion. It might also be a side effect of the disinfectant I drank yesterday.

And why, do you think, that Black Americans might find that they are more likely to have broken families, poor living conditions, drug issues and other social issues. Could it, just possibly, be because of racism? Wild thought I know but you may find it rather hard to do anything about those problems if you don't also acknowledge that racism both past and present has an awful lot to do with why they exist in the first place...

Historical racism has a lot to play into why there is racial inequality in America, for instance why black families tend to live in poorer areas of cities and therefore have more crime, health problems and ultimately shorter lifespans. However, many of the issues appear to come from within the community itself. Most of the murder statistics that I quoted in post #2465 are committed by black Americans against other black Americans. It is also worth noting that 72% of African-American children grow up without a father in their household - which is a terrible start to a young person's life and is possibly a major cause behind the crime statistics. Historical racism does affect black Americans, but there are lots of other issues that hold them back in society.

 

[najaB]

Historical racism has a lot to play into why there is racial inequality in America

It's not historical. It's a lived experience for many today.

 

[hst43102]

It's not historical. It's a lived experience for many today.

I'm not so sure. Going by a dictionary definition of racism, what areas of modern life are institutionally racist?

 

[nlogax]

I'm not so sure. Going by a dictionary definition of racism, what areas of modern life are institutionally racist?

https://www.racialequitytools.org/resourcefiles/institutionalracism.pdf

Solid Ground defines Institutional Racism as “the systematic distribution of resources, power and opportunity in our society to the benefit of people who are white and the exclusion of people of color.” Present-day racism was built on a long history of racially distributed resources and ideas that shape our view of ourselves and others. It is a hierarchical system that comes with a broad range of policies and institutions that keep it in place.

In the United States, institutional racism has been responsible for slavery, settlement, Indian reservations, segregation, residential schools (for American Indians), and internment camps. While most of these institutions no longer exist, they have had long-term impacts on our society. As a result of institutional racism, racial stratification and disparities have occurred in employment, housing, education, healthcare, government and other sectors. While many laws were passed in the mid-20th century to make discrimination illegal, major inequalities still exist.

 

[hst43102]

https://www.racialequitytools.org/resourcefiles/institutionalracism.pdf

That's exactly what I said in post #2470, historical racism affects the lives of people today. I don't think many (if any) western countries have a racist society.

Anyway, I think I've had enough of trying to make sense of America. I'll be moving back over to the railway side of the forums!

 

[RichT54]

I don't think many (if any) western countries have a racist society.

Then you are very much mistaken.

 

[najaB]

I don't think many (if any) western countries have a racist society.

Whoever made you spectacles used way too much rose tint.

 

[hst43102]

Then you are very much mistaken.

Any evidence of current racism in modern society? I'm not talking about fringe groups or individuals, but mainstream society as a whole.

Whoever made you spectacles used way too much rose tint.

I'm speaking about the present. There was clearly racism in the past, which has been acknowledged by Trump, and it clearly influences various aspects of modern life, but I'm not looking back to the past here.

 

[najaB]

I'm not talking about fringe groups or individuals, but mainstream society as a whole.

Society is nothing but a large group of individuals.

I'm speaking about the present. There was clearly racism in the past...

And there still is today. A couple of years ago I was told to "Go back where you came from" while I was walking to the office in Belfast.

 

[hst43102]

Society is nothing but a large group of individuals.

And there still is today. A couple of years ago I was told to "Go back where you came from" while I was walking to the office in Belfast.

I should have been clearer - I meant fringe individuals such as Tommy Robinson - the type that are frowned upon by 99% of people. I've never seen evidence for societal racism in the sense of what is implied by some organisations ("Western culture/society is racist and must be torn down") and such like.
I'm really sorry you experienced that - but surely that was a fairly isolated incident and it would be condemned by almost everyone (bar the fringe groups/individuals that I mentioned earlier?)

 

[Darandio]

I should have been clearer - I meant fringe individuals such as Tommy Robinson - the type that are frowned upon by 99% of people. I've never seen evidence for societal racism in the sense of what is implied by some organisations ("Western culture/society is racist and must be torn down") and such like.
I'm really sorry you experienced that - but surely that was a fairly isolated incident and it would be condemned by almost everyone (bar the fringe groups/individuals that I mentioned earlier?)

Spend a couple of days on Twitter or Facebook and in particular comments directed at the accounts of famous sportspeople and celebrities, you will see countless examples on a daily basis. These incidents aren't isolated, someone hiding behind a device is equally as abhorrent as someone doing it to someone in the street.

 

[najaB]

I've never seen evidence for societal racism in the sense of what is implied by some organisations

I'm going to go out on a limb here and make an assumption - I'm guessing that you are a caucasian male? If I'm correct in that assumption, I would rather suggest that you are in less of a position to say if society is racist towards ethnic minorities than a member of an ethnic minority.

These incidents aren't isolated, someone hiding behind a device is equally as abhorrent as someone doing it to someone in the street.

And nothing is said on Twitter that hasn't been thought in person.

 

[hst43102]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and make an assumption - I'm guessing that you are a caucasian male? If I'm correct in that assumption, I would rather suggest that you are in less of a position to say if society is racist towards ethnic minorities than a member of an ethnic minority.

I'm of a minority ethnic background myself, but I don't think that matters. I believe that anyone has the right to say what they want, as long as it doesn't interfere with the rights of others.

It's also worth noting that Twitter and Facebook aren't a good representation of society as a whole - people with a minority view or mindset - such as racism - will go on social media to make their voice much more widespread. It is true, however, that as @Darandio says, the person behind the keyboard is abhorrent and wrong. However, they probably would not say such things in person - it's much easier to say such things online.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Any evidence of current racism in modern society? I'm not talking about fringe groups or individuals, but mainstream society as a whole.

Maybe have a look at some of the things our own PM has said in relatively recent history and tell me again that there isn't any evidence of racism in mainstream modern society.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

https://www.racialequitytools.org/resourcefiles/institutionalracism.pdf

I'd hesitate about using that definition. It's basically a definition of 'institutional racism' created as part of a political campaign in order to further a certain cause and although the explanation does cite some examples of current racism, it also seems to encapsulate a lot of things that would until 6 months ago have been perfectly correctly described as 'inequality'.

The very first statement specifies "to the benefit of people who are white and the exclusion of people of color." - in other words, it's specifically refusing to acknowledge the possibility of racism other than racism by white people. That's simply not credible: There are numerous examples around the World of racism by non-whites (think for example of the racism by China against the Uighurs or historic racial tensions between ethnic Chinese and Malayans in Malaysia).

More generally, the term 'racism' has always implied specific prejudice or intentional discrimination against a particular person or group because of that person's ethnic (or in some cases, national/religious) identity. The mere fact that someone happens to be poor/badly educated/in poor health/etc. does not by itself provide proof that racism has occurred. Of course it might be the result of racism, but unless you know more details, it might equally be that the person is badly educated because they chose not to take advantage of the education available, or they are in bad health because they chose to smoke, etc. Unfortunately, that definition of institutional racism quoted cites lots of examples this kind of disadvantage/inequality disproportionately affecting minority groups without providing evidence that the cause is current racism.

To my mind, using the term 'racism' to describe what is actually inequality that exists without there being any present-day racist intent not only devalues the term 'racism' but it amounts to a rather misleading use of language. I don't doubt that some racism exists, or that it exists to a greater extent in the US than in the UK (a lot of the stuff that Trump himself has done and said amply demonstrates that!) But this definition exactly illustrates the problem on the other side - of trying to ascribe just about everything that impacts minorities to racism.

 

[najaB]

It's also worth noting that Twitter and Facebook aren't a good representation of society as a whole

A large part of that is due to digital exclusion which means that ethnic minorities are under represented. However, as far as opinions that are expressed social media platforms lay to waste the notion that we live in an egalitarian society - the currents of racism and misogyny run deep.

I'm of a minority ethnic background myself, but I don't think that matters.

Then I must say that I'm both surprised and glad for you that your life experiences have been positive enough to leave you with the mistaken impression that racism doesn't exist. The experiences of millions of others has not been so lily-scented.

 

[hst43102]

Then I must say that I'm both surprised and glad for you that your life experiences have been positive enough to leave you with the mistaken impression that racism doesn't exist. The experiences of millions of others has not been so lily-scented.

I didn't say that racism doesn't exist, I said that it doesn't exist on a nationwide, society-wide level like it did back in the 1970's. Look at the speed that people jump to confront racism when it does happen, online or in person.
That's not to say that I haven't had different experiences based on my ethnicity. I've had plenty of older people ask me where I'm from or if I'm British, but I certainly wouldn't count that as any form of racism, they just grew up and lived a lot of their lives in a society that was much less diverse than it is now.

 

[ComUtoR]

Deleted

 

[hst43102]

I think that racism in todays society is much worse than it was in the 70s.

That's interesting. What makes you think that? The 70s were a major time of racial progress in the UK, with black and asian communities facing all kinds of discrimination.

 

[ComUtoR]

Deleted

 

[najaB]

The president of the United States should know better. It's pure hatred. The fact that it has inflamed an entire nation shows that these attitudes and values still exist but just been suppressed. Trump has reignited peoples ideals and fanned the flames.

If this forum had a "Like" button, it would just have been pressed.

 

[hst43102]

In the 70's and many years before. Racism was blunt and in your face. Everything was very visible and very clear and obvious. Racism back then also came from a place of ignorance and inheritance. Move forward 50 odd years and you still get clear cut racism but the attitudes and ideals are still there. There has been almost no progress other than the removal of the more violent aspects of it. There are communities who are persecuted every day, there is still institutionalised racism in the police, there is still rampant racism in recruitement and people are still treated differently because of the colour of their skin. Yes, its less visible but its still very pervasive.

What makes the current climate worse is that there is no excuse for ignorance. Keeping on topic, some of the language used by Donald Trump is shocking. The president of the United States should know better. It's pure hatred. The fact that it has inflamed an entire nation shows that these attitudes and values still exist but just been suppressed. Trump has reignited peoples ideals and fanned the flames.

If I look at my company and take a genuine objective view of the demographics I am stunned by the lack of diversity. Not just the lack of colour in positions of responsibility but the sheer lack of any diversity. Previously you would know its because they are just racists. Now its just been hidden behind closed walls.

I'm not going to disagree with your ideas on Trump - he really should have been a lot more professional and less inflammatory, but I can't recall him saying anything that I would describe as "hatred".
Don't get me wrong, I'm not doubting you here, but you're also making a lot of big claims without any evidence. How are the police institutionally racist? I know this is just my view, but I have had a fair few experiences with the police in different cities in the UK and every single officer has been polite and helpful to me (a British Asian).
Diversity is a completely different topic to racism in my opinion. What use is it to have entirely equal racial representation in a company if there is a lack of ideological, philosophical and religious differences? Furthermore, the office workplace is naturally becoming more ethnically diverse for one simple reason. Most people from ethnic minorities are descended from people who immigrated into this country in the past 65 years or so. Their ancestors came to this country for a variety of reasons, primarily because there were much better job opportunities here. They weren't necessarily very skilled workers, so as a result many lived in poverty, and its taken a few generations for people in ethnic minorities to get into higher education and therefore office-type jobs.
It's also a very subjective view of one company - in many areas of the country jobs such as taxi and bus drivers, barbers, chefs are dominated by ethnic minorities.

 

[najaB]

in many areas of the country jobs such as taxi and bus drivers, barbers, chefs are dominated by ethnic minorities...

And why do you suppose that is - minorities dominating in low-paying, high hours jobs?

 

[hst43102]

And why do you suppose that is - minorities dominating in low-paying, high hours jobs?

I explained it - it's just the way mass immigration has always worked, and will always work. People immigrated to Britain to look for better jobs and a better life, took whatever was available, and now can afford to send their descendants to higher education and therefore move into higher paying jobs. Those jobs aren't necessarily low-paying jobs either, I know an immigrant who runs a fish and chip business, has a nice house and drives a big Mercedes.

 

[Darandio]

I explained it - I think it's historical. People immigrated to Britain to look for better jobs and a better life, took whatever was available, and now can afford to send their descendants to higher education and therefore move into higher paying jobs. Those jobs aren't necessarily low-paying jobs either, I know an immigrant who runs a fish and chip business, has a nice house and drives a big Mercedes.

You made quite a jump there. From taxi and bus drivers, barbers, chefs to owning their own fast food business.

 

[hst43102]

You made quite a jump there. From taxi and bus drivers, barbers, chefs to owning their own fast food business.

Sorry about that, rather off topic and beside the point. My point was that it's just the normal way immigration works into any country. It takes at least a generation or two, or three, for a large community from another part of the world to get established and get into the higher paying sectors of the economy. Nothing to do with racism - most grandchildren of Asian/Caribbean immigrants who came over in the 60's are earning more than eastern European immigrants that came over ten years ago.

 

[najaB]

People immigrated to Britain to look for better jobs and a better life, took whatever was available, and now can afford to send their descendants to higher education and therefore move into higher paying jobs.

In theory, yes. However ethnic minorities are underrepresented in higher education.