Discussion on systemic racism and inequality.

[hst43102]

In theory, yes. However ethnic minorities are underrepresented in higher education.

I'm not entirely sure where you are getting your data from - the government seems to disagree. In 2019, 30% of white UK state school students got into higher education, compared with 45% of black, 50% of asian and 68% of chinese students. It surprises me to learn that white students actually have the lowest entry rate into higher education, well under the average of 43%.
In the USA, 61% of high school students went on to higher education. 65% of white students, 55% of black students, 39% of Latino students and 71% of Asian students. So, a slight underrepresentation of black students, a higher underrepresentation of Latino students but not shockingly underrepresentation.

 

[najaB]

I'm not entirely sure where you are getting your data from - the government seems to disagree. In 2019, 30% of white UK state school students got into higher education, compared with 45% of black, 50% of asian and 68% of chinese students. It surprises me to learn that white students actually have the lowest entry rate into higher education, well under the average of 43%.

Ah, statistics. Choose the right ones and you can prove any point.

Entry to higher education isn't what you need to focus on, you need to pay attention to outcomes:

30.9% of White graduates achieved a first class degree, compared with 14.0% of Black graduates (the highest and lowest percentages respectively out of all ethnic groups)

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures...education/undergraduate-degree-results/latest

Black students are also more likely to drop out.

 

[hst43102]

Ah, statistics. Choose the right ones and you can prove any point.

Sorry to bring it up - I just needed some evidence to prove my point. I'm not picking and choosing specific results.

Entry to higher education isn't what you need to focus on, you need to pay attention to outcomes:

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/education-skills-and-training/higher-education/undergraduate-degree-results/lates
Black students are also more likely to drop out.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe your original point was that "ethnic minorities are underrepresented in higher education." In that case, entry figures are the focus. But going with your source, it's clear to see that, although black students have a higher percentage of drop out rates, the same cannot be said about Asian students or other ethnic minorities. I don't know about you, but I don't see any proof of racism in higher education. The same can be said for the police - I'll have a look into the figures on employment and see if anything sticks out.

Edit : Are you trying to explain that the higher dropout rates if black students are due to racism? I can say first hand that university professors are typically much more left-wing in their views on diversity and racism than the participants of this thread!

 

[najaB]

Are you trying to explain that the higher dropout rates if black students are due to racism? I can say first hand that university professors are typically much more left-wing in their views on diversity and racism than the participants of this thread!

Yes. But not among the academic staff, in society generally - they are more likely to drop out because they're more likely to have to.

 

[hst43102]

Yes. But not among the academic staff, in society generally - they are more likely to drop out because they're more likely to have to.

It's possible that it's due to racism, but I don't know very much about that area and I have no personal experience, so I honestly have no idea.

 

[najaB]

Going back to this:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe your original point was that "ethnic minorities are underrepresented in higher education." In that case, entry figures are the focus.

What really matters isn't how many people get in to higher education, what matters is what they achieve while they are there.

(Hyperbole warning): That's like saying that Caribbean sugar plantations in the 18th Century were a model of a racially progressive society since they provided work for at least 50 black people for every white person.

Getting back to the point I was making, what do you suppose the overall poorer results on first degrees means for black representation in graduate programs?

although black students have a higher percentage of drop out rates, the same cannot be said about Asian students or other ethnic minorities

That's largely because Chinese and Indian students are overrepresented in higher education, though other Asian groups are also somewhat underrepresented, particularly Bangladeshi and Pakistani.

 

[hst43102]

Getting back to the point I was making, what do you suppose the overall poorer results on first degrees means for black representation in graduate programs?

My point wasn't that there isn't disparity between ethnic groups, it's just that we shouldn't be blaming ALL the disparities or inequalites on racism. In answer to your question, I think the poorer results are probably an effect of the students having gone to less prestigious schools than some of their counterparts - due to the immigration problems I outlined in post #27.

 

[najaB]

My point wasn't that there isn't disparity between ethnic groups, it's just that we shouldn't be blaming ALL the disparities or inequalites on racism.

Nobody is. However you claimed that there's no racism and the problems faced by ethnic minorities were their own fault:

the root of the problem and sort out why so many black people are turning to crime, probably due to unstable or broken family backgrounds, poor living conditions and drugs/alcohol problems, rather than racism.

 

[Senex]

That's largely because Chinese and Indian students are overrepresented in higher education, though other Asian groups are also somewhat underrepresented, particularly Bangladeshi and Pakistani.

So why is it that those of a Chinese or Indian background not only come to be over-represented but also do very well?

 

[najaB]

So why is it that those of a Chinese or Indian background not only come to be over-represented but also do very well?

That's a question that couldn't possibly hope to answer with any certainty, I suspect it's an active area of research. My gut feeling is that it's partially cultural - Chinese parents in particular drive their children very hard academically - but that it's also because the larger number of Chinese and Indians in colleges and universities makes it easier for them to form formal and informal support networks.

This is going back a bit but I certainly know what it's like to be the only black child in a school year (for most of my primary education), and then saw the opposite side with my secondary and university education being in a majority-black country and seeing how the white minority naturally banded together to a degree. That said, I can't say that I experienced overt racism in my primary education (probably too early) nor were we overtly racist towards the white guys in our secondary school (though I've no doubt there were probably some unintentionally racist behaviours).

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Yes. But not among the academic staff, in society generally - they are more likely to drop out because they're more likely to have to.

Could I point out another rather compelling suggestion: That the higher drop-out rate for blacks might be largely explained by the higher admission rate.

We know that the rate of admission to University is significant higher for blacks than for whites (44.5% vs 30.3% for people from state schools - meaning state-educated blacks are an astonishing ~50% more likely than whites to start at University). There are of course many possible underlying reasons for that difference, but you can boil it down to two possibilities: Either blacks are on average significantly more academically gifted then whites, or some factor (affirmative action in selection policies?) is making it significantly easier for blacks to enrol at University. If - as seems plausible - the latter is a significant factor, that would imply that many black students are starting University who would have never made it there if they had been white and had the same academic ability. Since people with lower academic ability are presumably more likely to drop out, that by itself would lead to a higher drop-out rate amongst black students (and would also lead to lower average degree qualifications and lower rates of progression to postgraduate studies).

 

[najaB]

Either blacks are on average significantly more academically gifted then whites, or some factor (affirmative action in selection policies?) is making it significantly easier for blacks to enrol at University. If - as seems plausible - the latter is a significant factor, that would imply that many black students are starting University who would have never made it there if they had been white and had the same academic ability.

That is a possibility, but I've seen nothing to suggest that there's a positive selection bias in university admissions. Although, along the same lines, it's also conceivable that black students are more likely to buy into the idea of a university education as a "way out" and hence are more likely to apply. The net result would be the same - a higher dropout rate and lower average outcomes.

The only way to be sure would be demographic figures showing what percentage of secondary school leavers actually apply rather than are accepted into further education. I'm not sure if that is readily available but will have a look.

 

[Butts]

Is the Caste System in India an example of systemic racism that discriminates against people based upon their skin colour ?

As I understand it the higher castes are paler than the lower ones generally.

This brings me onto an interesting parallel namely that most of the black or asian people who have broken through in the media and other fields tend to be lighter skinned derivatives of their race.
Is this unconscious selection , merely a coincidence, or systemic racism ?

I feel it is a common misconception to view racism as only being prevalent amongst Caucasians.

 

[najaB]

Is the Caste System in India an example of systemic racism that discriminates against people based upon their skin colour ?

Not specifically on skin colour but yes, it's largely based on ethnic origin.

Is this unconscious selection , merely a coincidence, or systemic racism ?

There definitely used to be a conscious bias towards people with lighter skin. So much so that skin lightening creams (basically bleach) is very commonly used in many African countries. It seems that in recent years the "black ceiling" has been broken and we're seeing more dark-skinned people in the limelight.

I feel it is a common misconception to view racism as only being prevalent amongst Caucasians.

Oh, definitely. I grew up on a Caribbean island and heard people saying things like "Your daughter is so pretty, shame she's so dark" and my father says that in is day they used to say "If you're white, alright. If you're brown, stick around. If you're black, stand back." One of the most beautiful women I have ever had the pleasure to have met had genuinely been convinced that she was ugly when she was younger because of comments about her very dark skin.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

This brings me onto an interesting parallel namely that most of the black or asian people who have broken through in the media and other fields tend to be lighter skinned derivatives of their race.
Is this unconscious selection , merely a coincidence, or systemic racism ?

I feel it is a common misconception to view racism as only being prevalent amongst Caucasians.

That reminds me of this story

Asian marriage website, Shaadi.com, has removed a skin tone filter following pressure from users.
Hetal Lakhani from Dallas, USA, started an online petition against the option, which led to the company removing it.
She started it after speaking to another user, who questioned the filter in light of anti-racism protests.

Seems to perfectly illustrate two of your points: It suggests that, yes, there has been bias in some asian communities against darker skin tones. And - as for the misconception about racism only being prevalent amongst caucasians... I remember reading that story earlier this year and marvelling that apparently no-one involved could see the irony of a dating site that specifically excludes non-asians removing a skin tone filter in order to avoid being racist!

 

[scotrail158713]

I was in China in 2018 and had a very interesting conversation with someone who said there is a tendency of preference towards lighter skinned people.
It might not be the case right across Asia, but is apparently the case in China. I was told a darker shade of skin indicates you do lots of manual work outside, and are therefore less well off than a person who has a higher-paying office job, and thus spends more time inside. It means in general more tanned people are looked down upon, whereas in our western culture a tan is considered the complete opposite.

 

[hst43102]

I was in China in 2018 and had a very interesting conversation with someone who said there is a tendency of preference towards lighter skinned people.
It might not be the case right across Asia, but is apparently the case in China. I was told a darker shade of skin indicates you do lots of manual work outside, and are therefore less well off than a person who has a higher-paying office job, and thus spends more time inside. It means in general more tanned people are looked down upon, whereas in our western culture a tan is considered the complete opposite.

I can confirm that, it's part of the culture all over most of Asia. I would say that in our culture a lot of tan has negative connotations!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I was in China in 2018 and had a very interesting conversation with someone who said there is a tendency of preference towards lighter skinned people.
It might not be the case right across Asia, but is apparently the case in China. I was told a darker shade of skin indicates you do lots of manual work outside, and are therefore less well off than a person who has a higher-paying office job, and thus spends more time inside. It means in general more tanned people are looked down upon, whereas in our western culture a tan is considered the complete opposite.

My understanding is that modern Western culture celebrating the tan is historically very recent. Go back a century or two, to before the time when people would go on holiday sunbathing, and the situation in the UK was much as you describe it in China: If you had a tan, that could only mean you had a low-paying job doing manual work outside. Therefore pale skin was considered good, and darker, tanned, skin was something to look down on.

 

[najaB]

Therefore pale skin was considered good, and darker, tanned, skin was something to look down on.

Which is why Elizabethan women poisoned themselves with white lead to try and make themselves as white as possible.

 

[Senex]

My understanding is that modern Western culture celebrating the tan is historically very recent. Go back a century or two, to before the time when people would go on holiday sunbathing, and the situation in the UK was much as you describe it in China: If you had a tan, that could only mean you had a low-paying job doing manual work outside. Therefore pale skin was considered good, and darker, tanned, skin was something to look down on.

Does the suntan cult even go back any further than WW1. Certainly up till then (and I wonder if even into the 20s) it was a class/pay thing as you say. I don't know my twentieth-century literature well enough to say when characters described as sun-tanned came to be associated with good health and enough money to travel to sunny climes.

 

[najaB]

Does the suntan cult even go back any further than WW1.

I suspect it started to be a thing in Victorian times - tanned skin would have been associated with being out in the warmer parts of the Empire.