Disruption on Southern's mainline due to a fatality [28/05]

[infobleep]

Hi there

Someone is under a train at Horley, leading to delays on the Brighton line. It was a fatality. My thoughts are with those involved, including the driver and victim. Appears to have happened around 17.05. My following comments regarding Southern's response in keeping passengers informed is insignificant compared to this but that doesn't mean they can't improve the communications to passengers in future events. I'd prefer no future events but sadly that is unlikely.

This evening, someone, possibly Network Rail were telling passengers a rail replacement bus to Gatwick Airport was operating from East Croydon. Speaking to a passenger it was also announced on their train. East Croydon staff were blissfully unaware of this and said no such thing had been arranged.

Once I reached East Croydon, from Clapham Junction, prerecorded announcments were being made about the disruption but no one was announcing any train departures. I missed 3 trains because of this and I kept running between platforms in the hope to catch the next listed delayed train, which could have left at any time. There had been a gap with no trains running so I was kind of expecting them to announce that trains were now running again. I actually wasn't expecting the trains to start running again so soon.

Had I boarded the first train my evening plans would not have been disrupted. That was on a different platform to the one I arrived in on. This makes it extremely frustrating. I'm an hour later than that train, yet I only left East Croydon 15 minutes later if that. To be fair we were only 2 minutes late leaving East Croydon and they left 30 minutes late. However I do get the impression lots of other trains over took us on the quarry line, as we were unusually routed via Redhill and kept stopping.

One member of staff around the gate line couldn't comment as to why announcements were not being made but said to wait there for announcements. I wasn't keen on that since announcements were not being made. I decided to advise one or two other customers around me that no announcements were being made because the staff clearly weren't doing that and were not repaired to do that. He did suggest may be the trains were considered to be full so announcements were not made. Perhaps they could have made that public announcement instead then. Just something to tell us what was going on.

Does anyone know why trains might not be announced as departing or be announced as due to passenger numbers we will only announce the next train that has space to board?

Eventually the 18.09 to Brighton was announced and I was able to board that. It only left 2 minutes late. Clearly the journey was slow. On top of that I think they let the slower stopping service to Brighton leave Gatwick Airport first so we got even more delayed. It's not easy being a signalman in such circumstances though. We arrived 63 minutes late into Haywards Heath.

I had considered heading back to Guildford via Clapham Junction but given no fast trains stop at Clapham Junction during evening peak rush hour I decided that might be just as long and take my chances carrying on. I probably wouldn't have got into Guildford until 19.23. I only arrived into Haywards Heath 18 minutes after that. Shows how bad the service is from Clapham Junction in the evening peak heading south. No fault of anyone in particular, just the infrastructure can't cope with anything stopping.

At 18.40 the driver of the First Capital Connect train had just been informed of the reason for our delay by the signalman. He said earlier we would know more than him with our smart phones. I don't think that's fair on drivers but given drivers are busy driving the train, can they do anything about it whilst not distracting them from their work.

Unfortunately this did disrupted my evening plans but that's nothing compared to the driver and what he's been through. Not to mention everyone else connected with it, including the victim. Still doesn't make it any less frustrating though. I do regular Hydrotherapy classes and missed it. It's one of the highlights of my week. But like I say insignificant compared to what happened.

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[infobleep]

To be fair and to my surprise, only 1 train over took us. A short term planned train from London Bridge. Also the train to leave in front at Gatwick Airport was timetabled to leave first and there often good reasons for doing that, even if it delays a faster service beind.

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[TunnelRat]

Real time information is difficult to obtain when it comes to service disruptions regarding Southern staff at stations or on board the trains. Their twitter feed is probably your best bet to find out any alterations etc, as proven tonight when my train was diverted due to the incident at Horley.

One thing I will say is the response on Twitter from some people regarding the fatality earlier was absolutely disrespectful to the staff and family of the person involved. I was just delayed tonight, as was thousands of others but the lack of common sense was just amazing……

 

[ah-media]

Firstly, my thoughts to the driver and the family of the deceased.

The train in question was 1T40 - Unit 319219. I was in the front carriage as it hit the person.

I have to give credit to the driver who constantly kept passengers informed through the incident. Due to the position of the incident we were able to disembark through coach 4 onto the platform.

East Croydon was chaos and the platform staff were not well informed - trains were being turned around yet no-one had told the Southern staff, which was a shame and for those stuck was a frustrating experience.

 

[infobleep]

I got the impression from the one staff member I spoke to they were not interested in finding out what was happening but perhaps it's too complicated for each staff member to ask what is going on. I did hear one staff member ask on his walkie talkie about the replacement buses but there was no announcement about them not running. So some staff were interested in finding out more.

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[infobleep]

Still some trains delayed at East Croydon. Suspect most of these were cancelled. I know the station departure boards had the 17.43 as cancelled.

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[Minstral25]

I got the impression from the one staff member I spoke to they were not interested in finding out what was happening but perhaps it's too complicated for each staff member to ask what is going on. I did hear one staff member ask on his walkie talkie about the replacement buses but there was no announcement about them not running. So some staff were interested in finding out more.

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My thoughts with all involved. These incidents are very sad.

The centralisation of signals means that a few people in a signal control centre are trying to reorganise a whole network of trains totally disrupted and it is virtually impossible for them to inform the station staff on all stations on the network. It seems worse at East Croydon because there are more passengers and trains but an equivalent disruption is happening everywhere along the line.

The train companies are not able to ask drivers to take trains on unfamiliar routes, or after their working periods have ended because of health and safety rules, which are there for good reason. Which inevitably means drivers ending shifts at odd locations with no crew to take over trains, the complexity is horrendous to calculate.

This confusion is amplified by the automatic systems which plough on trying to make sense of the situation reporting increasingly inaccurate information.

What I'm trying to say is that on our busy railways incidents such as these cause chaos by there nature and I don't think there is a magic wand to solve it. If anyone has a great idea to solve it then please put it forward, I'm sure the Rail Companies would like to hear it. Meanwhile please appreciate that they are doing their best to put it all back together and get us home.

 

[sarahj]

Its been a fun night. Could not have happened at a worse place, at a worse time. All four lines were shut for just under an hour with the slows opening first, then the fasts about 30 mins later. Southern cancelled the Londons from Brighton and gatex's were cancelled, but FCC's to Beford were still being shown, but as delayed. There was a attempt to get buses going, but not easy to due the rush hour etc, but some did start running, mainly it seems Redhill to the Heath. Ticket acceptance with SWT and SET started almost straight away. Messages were coming in fast into staff, my phone was buzzing all night, but it takes time to scrol through them all.
I was running seafords at the time (went up to london later on the 21.02) and was very naughty as I held my Brighton bound train at Lewes for 1 1/2 mins to allow passengers on a late running Vic to Eastbourne to connect. Quite a few did, but I'm still expecting a please explain. My 21.02 was 5 mins late (needed to find stock), but my trains down from Victoria, 23.32 to Brighton and then the later one to Brighton and worthing both ran on time. Some FCC's were still running late, but that seemed to be due to emergency works north of Blackfriers.
Thoughts to the driver and all involved.

 

[infobleep]

Well done SarahJ and other for holding your trains. They wouldn't expect you to run down the platform to change ends if your train was late so equally allowances should be made at times for late running connecting trains.

When we were told all the lines had reopened I guess they hadn't. Given the number of cancellations there was no other reason to send us via Redhill. I assume the trains had to run slowly passed Horley for a time as we kept stopping for quite a while every so often rather than just moving very slowly all the time under caution signals.

I now think more than one train overtook my service but they must have been lucky with the reopening of the quarry line. We were never routed onto the fast lines until after Gatwick or Three Bridges.

I know it's difficult but I do think a message saying trains now running again is useful. That message did reach Twitter, which I forgot to check myself at the time, so it must be possible to broadcast a similar system wide message to all staff. Yes they may not all check it being busy but hopefully the one making the manual CIS announcements at places such as East Croydon can then make an announcement.

In periods of disruption South West Trains have a policy of only listing the running trains. Southern don't do such a thing but it actually didn't seem to matter so much. Perhaps if they had, the trains that did suddenly leave may not have been listed at all.

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[talldave]

My thoughts to the driver and the family of the victim.

I was caught up in the this incident in a rather abstract way. I was making my first trip using my "Key" smartcard and had decided to break my return journey at Crawley to visit a couple of shops.

When I returned the network was at a halt, so I went off to find a bus (as they were meant to be accepting rail tickets) and ended up waving my smart card at the bus driver - who had to take my word that there was a ticket on it (I wasn't the only one doing that).

Another example of where paper is so much more flexible.

 

[Evvy73]

I too was caught up in the disruption, but I had been made aware before I left the Office so chose to stay put until things started moving again.

On the question of alternative ticket acceptance, could anyone tell me exactly how flexible it is? I travel from London Bridge to Wivelsfield/Burgess Hill - could I have jumped on a South Eastern train to Hastings from London Bridge and worked my way back along the coast, or alternatively a SWT from Waterloo to Dorking and then get back via Horsham and Three Bridges, or would this have been viewed as a 'non acceptable route'?

I accept these are quite extreme diversions and would have taken a while, but at least I would have kept moving!
As it happens yesterday, I was back home at 8pm, so only 90mins later than normal, but at 5pm when everything was showing as cancelled or delayed I didn't know how long it would be before everything would start again.

 

[colchesterken]

mmmm..it would be good if they had a sort of by pass route to Brighton.it could run via the old Lewis line that they closed some time ago..It could be called BML2...well well

 

[infobleep]

Three people in the carriage I was in had to get to Jersey and Guernsey on the last flights of the day. They were clearly business users. Needless to say unless their flights were delayed, those going to Jersey were looking for a hotel for the night at Gatwick and the one to Guernsey wasn't looking that promising either.

That's the kind of problems that result from these sad incidents. One might argue that they should have allowed more than an hour for the airport but in another thread on here about sleeper services, people have talked about how fast it is to fly to Scotland. It's only exceptionally fast if you cut down the waiting around time.

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[mirodo]

Met a friend in the pub last night who was alighting at East Croydon amidst all the chaos. Out of kindness, she rang for taxis and pre-agreed fares for several groups of foreign tourists who were trying to get to Gatwick and didn't have a clue what was going on. The staff clearly hadn't been briefed and were equally in the dark.

 

[infobleep]

I know one can't contact a every member of staff but in these situations there should be a chain of command as to who gets information and gives it out. All you need is one or two people at a station to know what is happening and to disseminate the information.

Hopefully the new franchise will include provisions for improvement communications.

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[RichJF]

I too was caught up in the disruption, but I had been made aware before I left the Office so chose to stay put until things started moving again.

On the question of alternative ticket acceptance, could anyone tell me exactly how flexible it is? I travel from London Bridge to Wivelsfield/Burgess Hill - could I have jumped on a South Eastern train to Hastings from London Bridge and worked my way back along the coast, or alternatively a SWT from Waterloo to Dorking and then get back via Horsham and Three Bridges, or would this have been viewed as a 'non acceptable route'?

I'm not an expert on this. but SE definitely had ticket acceptance going from LBG all the way to Hastings. That's what their guard & platform staff told me.

I got to Bridge & nothing was moving. was told SE were accepting tickets; so hopped on to Tonbridge via Sevenoaks & worked back to Redhill from there.
It was a long detour but trouble-free.

Plus the rare event of an 8-coach Southern 377 at Tonbridge due to a non-split at Redhill!!!

 

[LBSCR Times]

mmmm..it would be good if they had a sort of by pass route to Brighton.it could run via the old Lewis line that they closed some time ago..It could be called BML2...well well

Or better still......
Via Dorking and Arundel, with a route that is already open, and electrified!

Of course that doesn't suit those that want the other long winding way to the coast......

 

[samogers]

Thoughts with everyone involved. East Croydon was jam packed and Victoria was even worse. Unfortunately for me, (I live in Uckfield) I had decided to go to Victoria instead of London Bridge. When I get there around (1830) it was so busy. As the train I had planned to get (the 1902 to Bognor) was cancelled, I decided to get the first train to east croydon, then wait there. As I arrive, I notice that there is a service departing at 1847 to Ore. Despite being a 12 car train, it is a like a sardine can (everyone crammed in) so I try to board a service to East Grinstead (1853.) So I boarded this service and stupidly decided to change at East Croydon, forgetting I could change at Oxted. At East Croydon, it was hell on earth. Nobody knew which platforms the trains were leaving from, and the announcements informing passengers about platform alterations often took place after the said train had left. Luckily for me, the Uckfield train departed from platform 6 (it's booked platform) but I only just realised that it was on platform 6 after going on a wild goosechase around the station and then noticed the 171 on the platform.

I appreciate that I may have rambled on and that others personal experiences may have been worse, but I am just sharing my experience.

P.s. I made a mental note NEVER to change at East Croydon when there's disruption if I can help it

 

[Julian Hornby]

Indeed there was. I was on the 16:59 FGW Bristol service from Brighton to Southampton and when we stopped at Chichester the Guard told the train manager there was a fatality. Thankfully our train was not delayed however services to London Victoria, Brighton etc. were delayed.
My deepest condolences for the family.
Julian

 

[Stats]

If us rail savvy and seasoned travellers have difficulty in navigating our way through the disruption caused by this tragic incident, spare a thought for all the foreign tourists on the 1700 GatEx, which was full and standing, as it terminated at Purley. Not exactly the best place for people heading to Gatwick to be left. Most were looking very lost not knowing what to do.

 

[Chrisgr31]

It is the same every thing every time the mainline is closed unexpectedly. Chaos at all the stations and next to no announcements and a very good impression that no member of staff has a clue as to what is going on. It really must be possible to come up with an emergency plan, which everyone knows, and therefore can explain.

The other great unexplained mystery is how on Twitter the use @SouthernsGreatestFan can post more information about delayed, cancelled etc trains than Southerns own feed.

 

[paul1609]

mmmm..it would be good if they had a sort of by pass route to Brighton.it could run via the old Lewis line that they closed some time ago..It could be called BML2...well well

The Brighton Line already has a bypass via Dorking and Horsham if all the money wasted on feasability studies in to fantasy schemes to reopen the Lewes to Uckfield line had been invested in the Arundel curve it would be have been available yesterday!

 

[Bald Rick]

The Brighton Line already has a bypass via Dorking and Horsham if all the money wasted on feasability studies in to fantasy schemes to reopen the Lewes to Uckfield line had been invested in the Arundel curve it would be have been available yesterday!

I think you mean that if all the money spent on feasibility studies into reopening Uckfield - Lewes had been invested in a 100-1 long shot nag at Plumpton races, and it had come in, there might now be enough to build the Arundel chord.

 

[Yabbadabba]

The Brighton Line already has a bypass via Dorking and Horsham if all the money wasted on feasability studies in to fantasy schemes to reopen the Lewes to Uckfield line had been invested in the Arundel curve it would be have been available yesterday!

Well you will also need to invest in the line between Dorking to Horsham to increase the amount of signal sections as well as a new Arundel curve to get any benefit of using it as a diversionary route. It only has the capictirty for about two fast trains an hour and that's with the stopping service being suspended to make way for them with the current signal spacing.

 

[JB_B]

The Brighton Line already has a bypass via Dorking and Horsham if all the money wasted on feasability studies in to fantasy schemes to reopen the Lewes to Uckfield line had been invested in the Arundel curve it would be have been available yesterday!

Last time I found really major problems heading to Brighton from East Croydon (the burst water main and landslip incident back in 2011) there was absolutely no mention of West Croydon->Dorking then ->Horsham->Gatwick / Deepdene->Gatwick/ ->Horsham->West Coastway via Mid Sussex as alternatives. I ended up travelling to Brighton via Sutton/Horsham/Barnham which all looked like normal off-peak loadings.

I assumed that they hadn't been suggested as these routes would have saturated almost immediately (the queues for replacement buses southbound at East Croydon were incredible even though it was only mid-afternoon).

So, should ideas for BML resilience improvements actually focus on improving capacity on West Croydon->Dorking / Dorking->Horsham / or even Deepdene->Gatwick rather looking further south at Arundel Chord / Uckfield Lewes ?

 

[infobleep]

Or simply not bother due to costs and the fact problems don't occur that often.

Surely a much cheaper option would be to invest in better communications when problems do occur.

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[dcsprior]

Thoughts are with the deceased's family, as well as the driver and anyone else who witnessed it - I'm sure its a horrible thing to be directly involved in.

Out of interest, how does ticket acceptance work on Oyster? If a passenger travels by one or more of Bus/Tube/Tram in addition to train as a result of the disruption, and therefore pays more, will they get this refunded? If so, I'm guessing they'd have to call the helpline as it would be nearly impossible to do automatically

What I'm trying to say is that on our busy railways incidents such as these cause chaos by there nature and I don't think there is a magic wand to solve it. If anyone has a great idea to solve it then please put it forward, I'm sure the Rail Companies would like to hear it. Meanwhile please appreciate that they are doing their best to put it all back together and get us home.

Looking in from a layman's perspective, it seems like a partial solution would be to use the trains which would've been going Victoria -> Gatwick or Victoria -> Brighton were instead run as fast shuttles Victoria -> Clapham Junction -> East Croydon (->Redhill for perhaps every second train)

I'm guessing that this would fix things for about ~50% of passengers, and those with flights to catch from Gatwick would only be a relatively short taxi ride away.

However I'm guessing this could just move a problem from Victoria, which is at least roomy and well-staffed, to East Croydon or Redhill.

 

[paul1609]

Well you will also need to invest in the line between Dorking to Horsham to increase the amount of signal sections as well as a new Arundel curve to get any benefit of using it as a diversionary route. It only has the capictirty for about two fast trains an hour and that's with the stopping service being suspended to make way for them with the current signal spacing.

A stopping service from Horsham to Dorking takes 21 mins, it is double tracked throughout. Even if there were no intermediate signals at all its difficult to see that there is only capacity for 2 fast tph.
More likely it is part of Govias "withered arm" policy which seems to relate to everything thats not Brighton mainline or metro services.
The Arun Valley and Coastway services are all considerably worse than when Connex were sacked from the franchise.

 

[Yabbadabba]

A stopping service from Horsham to Dorking takes 21 mins, it is double tracked throughout. Even if there were no intermediate signals at all its difficult to see that there is only capacity for 2 fast tph.
More likely it is part of Govias "withered arm" policy which seems to relate to everything thats not Brighton mainline or metro services.
The Arun Valley and Coastway services are all considerably worse than when Connex were sacked from the franchise.

There are only three signal sections in the 10 miles of railway between Dorking and Horsham, while in contrast the 20 miles of railway between Horsham and Arundel Junction that has just recently been re-signalled there are 21 signal sections with oodles of capacity. We have never managed to run more than 2 trains per hour via the old main line between Dorking and Horsham as anymore than two and the timetable looses it's robustness.

 

[ushawk]

The Arun Valley and Coastway services are all considerably worse than when Connex were sacked from the franchise.

Being someone on the Coastway line, I couldnt disagree more.

More reliable services, better connections and in cases more frequent services too. Its the same with the West Coastway line too. Govia havent made anything worse, in some cases they havent made it better - but it certainly isnt "considerably worse".