Do the diagrams in signalboxes show whether lines are electrified. and do train descriptions indicate electric trains

[Ken H]

This was inspired by https://railforums.co.uk/threads/has-an-emu-ever-run-out-of-traction-rail.225915/page-3#post-5449415

Some of the anecdotes on that thread seem to indicate a signaller sent an electric train into non electrified route.

So, as per the title
1. do the signalling diagrams in signalboxes show whether the line is electrified. and in the case of places like Euston, does it have DC, AC or both?

2 does a signaller know which trains are electric? Even if a DMU has been substituted for an EMU?

Would it help if it could be organised?

 

[The Planner]

This was inspired by https://railforums.co.uk/threads/has-an-emu-ever-run-out-of-traction-rail.225915/page-3#post-5449415

Some of the anecdotes on that thread seem to indicate a signaller sent an electric train into non electrified route.

So, as per the title
1. do the signalling diagrams in signalboxes show whether the line is electrified. and in the case of places like Euston, does it have DC, AC or both?

2 does a signaller know which trains are electric? Even if a DMU has been substituted for an EMU?

Would it help if it could be organised?

No a panel/VDU wouldn't show it and a signaller is just going to see the headcode of the train, that doesn't identify what traction it is and I don't see how it could. Not sure of the overall benefit either.

 

[matchmaker]

Train describer codes don't as far as I know indicate the type of train now. However, when the North Clydeside lines were electrified in the 1960s, the sections using Track Circuit Block (mostly the fringe boxes to the panels at Hyndland and Dumbarton) had describers using codes which did indicate the type of train. It's many years since I saw one, but working from memory a typical code would be BEBC which would translate as class B Electric for Balloch via Clydebank.

 

[The exile]

2 does a signaller know which trains are electric? Even if a DMU has been substituted for an EMU

In terms of “ running out of juice” this wouldn’t matter of course. EMU substituting for DMU would be more risk- prone, but I doubt it happens that often. That said, my first attempt to do Nuneaton- Coventry after reopening was stymied when a 310 rolled in from Stafford - and was diverted to terminate at Rugby instead.

 

[rower40]

On one particular modern control system, there's a soft-key that can be clicked to turn on/off the "limit of electrification" blue lines. But mostly they're left switched off to prevent too much clutter on the screen. The signallers usually know which bits are wired/3rd-railed and which bits are not.

There is a function within the Timetable Processor to prevent ARS routeing electric trains onto non-electrified lines; and to prevent it routeing diesel trains into "electric-only" tunnels. It's rarely used "in anger", but at least once it has cut in to prevent a train getting stranded, when the Timetable Planners made a typo. This does, however, rely on the stock diagrammed for a particular service actually forming that service.

 

[Tempest Malice]

1. do the signalling diagrams in signalboxes show whether the line is electrified.

Yes, though typically by showing the limits of electrification, rather than being continuously indicated across the electrified area.

and in the case of places like Euston, does it have DC, AC or both?

For euston which is a bit of an edge case, see a photo of the controlling panel here, where the the DC tracks are shown by the tiny black squiggles next to those tracks, whereas the AC of the area is implied by being inside the limits shown where the AC ends, so on that panel see the little black text in the bottom of this photo though usually AC limits on many panels are a bit more obvious.

2 does a signaller know which trains are electric? Even if a DMU has been substituted for an EMU?

The signaller might typically know what type is usually used for a particular service, and can probably assume that if a train is timetabled to use only electrified lines on it's journey then it should be electrified unless told otherwise. But there is no system while trains are running to directly inform them (I mean they could probably check the train's unit number in TRUST and work out from what class it is, but I would doubt doing such is standard practice)

 

[Horizon22]

Train describer codes don't as far as I know indicate the type of train now. However, when the North Clydeside lines were electrified in the 1960s, the sections using Track Circuit Block (mostly the fringe boxes to the panels at Hyndland and Dumbarton) had describers using codes which did indicate the type of train. It's many years since I saw one, but working from memory a typical code would be BEBC which would translate as class B Electric for Balloch via Clydebank.

They often do where it is critical to do so. As an example, TfL Rail have taken over a number of GWRT services in Dec '21 timetable. These services are booked into P14 and are 7-cars instead of the usual 9-cars which is important as P14 can only fit 8-cars. As a result these have been coded as 3xxx services from the depot in the evening to signify this. Often the letter in the describers will determine a route to aid signallers, where possible.

 

[Falcon1200]

The signaller might typically know what type is usually used for a particular service, and can probably assume that if a train is timetabled to use only electrified lines on it's journey then it should be electrified unless told otherwise. But there is no system while trains are running to directly inform them (I mean they could probably check the train's unit number in TRUST and work out from what class it is, but I would doubt doing such is standard practice)

Substituting a diesel train for a service booked electric is not a major issue, except perhaps in terms pf performance. Substituting an electric train for a service booked diesel can however cause major issues, if say Control fail to advise the Signaller, the train is signalled onto a non-wired line and the Driver takes the route......

 

[Efini92]

They often do where it is critical to do so. As an example, TfL Rail have taken over a number of GWRT services in Dec '21 timetable. These services are booked into P14 and are 7-cars instead of the usual 9-cars which is important as P14 can only fit 8-cars. As a result these have been coded as 3xxx services from the depot in the evening to signify this. Often the letter in the describers will determine a route to aid signallers, where possible.

If it has less cars now why is it important to distinguish it?

 

[Horizon22]

If it has less cars now why is it important to distinguish it?

To differentiate it from a normal 9-car train that runs as 9xxx

 

[Efini92]

To differentiate it from a normal 9-car train that runs as 9xxx

If it’s coming from the depot it won’t be a class 9 though.

 

[TheEdge]

If it has less cars now why is it important to distinguish it?

Because you don't want to put a 7 car train into a 9 car platform then not have a 9 car platform available for a 9 car train.

If it’s coming from the depot it won’t be a class 9 though.

Presumably the normal 9 cars run as class 5. Class 3 is really just being used as a special ECS identifier.

 

[Horizon22]

If it’s coming from the depot it won’t be a class 9 though.

No but the 3 emphasises it is a particular train of a 7-car instead of what they might expect a usual 9xxx or a 5xxx from Old Oak Depot to be.

 

[Eloise]

It's not unheard of to do local ops a favour and give them a favourable headcode to stand out. Though Class 3 is normally used (note the word normally) to signify a high priority ECS these days, going on to form a passenger service. The issue becomes you make so many one-offs they become common. You do one 3XXX then another then everyone wants one.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Train describer codes don't as far as I know indicate the type of train now.

The report of the 1957 Lewisham disaster noted that the signalboxes in the area had describers which identified the train type (but not the destination). There were two indications only - steam and electric - other means such as reading headcodes or telegraphic messages would presumably be necessary to identify trains if they were running out of sequence.
On the evening in question the signalman at Parks Bridge Junction was offered an "electric" train, and as he was expecting a train for the Hayes branch shortly, he assumed it was this and not the main line Hastings service that was also due, and consequently held it at the signals for the junction until a suitable opportunity arose to send it across the Up Fast to reach the Hayes branch. However, when the signal for the Hayes branch cleared, the driver phoned the signalman to report a "wrong stick" as he was in fact the Hastings train.
There had been a misunderstanding between the signalmen - the signalman in the previous box used the "electric" code for all multiple unit trains, including the new-fangled DEMUs just appearing on the Hastings route - it seems no instructions had been issued about these: they were long distance trains, still running to steam timings, so some signalmen used the "steam" code, but others used the "electric" code to reflect their different performance and terminal handling requirements.
By the time the signals and points had been re-set and the DEMU sent on its way, the real Hayes train had been held at the next signal behind for some time, where it was a sitting duck for a steam-hauled Thanet express to run into it after its driver missed the signals in the fog.

 

[Andyjs247]

Train headcodes are specified to an increasing degree in the timetable planning rules to indicate the route and/or destination. Signallers can therefore identify a particular service group from the headcode 2nd letter and 3rd/4th digits and what type of stock operates that service.

At some of the larger stations signallers may use a station workings docker or simplifier which matches headcodes to the diagrammed stock so they know what trains fit which platforms etc, where a train has come from and is going to and, for terminating trains, the previous and next workings.

 

[Sunset route]

In general signalling diagram and control desks don’t show the extent of electrification, but on the former Southern Region they will show the locations of Sub Stations and TP Huts. As for whether the signallers know if the train is diesel, AC or DC electric, well most won’t know unless they are a rail enthusiast and read and understand the stock No. via the “Trains/Mobile” menu if the GSMR or if they have access to a trust terminal.

 

[alangla]

In terms of “ running out of juice” this wouldn’t matter of course. EMU substituting for DMU would be more risk- prone, but I doubt it happens that often.

Surely pretty common with Avanti? Inconsequential if it’s Glasgow to Euston via Birmingham, unless the diagram then has the units splitting and going to Chester or somewhere!

I know GNER and their successors would occasionally turn out a mk4 set for something going to Aberdeen or Inverness via a set swap at Edinburgh, you could see that running into trouble if it was unexpectedly sent via the joint line or Carlisle with everyone assuming it was an HST because of the destination. The multiple types of Hitachi 80x probably cause similar issues if they turn up in the wrong place and it’s probably less obvious with them that they can’t do what’s expected.

 

[Signal_Box]

Deleted.