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Driving a train with minor irritations

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Egg Centric

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Rather depends on what part of a plane you're pushing and pulling. If its the throttle then this is generally inaccurate in its most basic form.

Seems accurate to me. Or at least, it's more accurate than the opposite*. True for the (admittedly few) planes I've flown IRL and also true in the many, many more that I've flown in a simulator.

It's accurate for the yoke/joystick too, in fact!

*In the short term. Clearly if you pull back and do nothing at sufficient altitude, then you will eventually be going very fast. Then infinitely slow.
 
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robbeech

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Seems accurate to me. Or at least, it's more accurate than the opposite*. True for the (admittedly few) planes I've flown IRL and also true in the many, many more that I've flown in a simulator.

It's accurate for the yoke/joystick too, in fact!

*In the short term. Clearly if you pull back and do nothing at sufficient altitude, then you will eventually be going very fast. Then infinitely slow.
I think the implication IF they referred to the throttle was that pushing it forward makes you go faster, which, as you'll know isn't strictly the case if you (or the aircraft) is controlling nothing else and that pulling back will make you go slower.
 

Egg Centric

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I think the implication IF they referred to the throttle was that pushing it forward makes you go faster, which, as you'll know isn't strictly the case if you (or the aircraft) is controlling nothing else and that pulling back will make you go slower.

Yup, I doubt there's any real rail analogy to e.g. phugoids; but I think (best thing about this thread is it's very, very silly so we can all interpret it how we like) we should probably only consider the instant reaction - after all if you ram the throttle in a train open it's going to end with deceleration at some point too, possibly much more quickly than pulling it back!
 

pint

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Daft question time from someone who has never been in the driving side of a train...
When approaching a junction/points doe the train driver have any control over the direction in which the train "steers" onto the other track - e turn left/right/carry on straight ahead ?
Next up: As i understand it train drivers will do some pretty long shifts in the cabs - are there limits on how long a train driver can drive for in the same way as lorry drivers? wand what comfort facilitys are there in the cabs, sucha s toilets/aircon and music or radio to listen to to keep the driver active, awake and as an aid to concentration - do drivers bring their own radio/music to listen to to the cab?
 

seagull

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To answer your first query: no, the driver has no control whatsoever about the direction in which the train goes at a junction or set of points (other than of course when low-speed shunting in a depot where the driver may be the one having to get out, change the direction of points, then proceed over them). This is why route knowledge (something not required of car drivers) is essential as the only indication of which route a train will take at a junction is on the signal preceding it: the train driver has to know whether the route is a) permitted for the train, b) permitted for the schedule and c) permitted for the route knowledge - going the "wrong way" could cause all manner of problems, not least of which is an unwelcome meeting with the manager.

To answer the second query: yes, train drivers can spend several hours in the same cab. There are restrictions on length which vary by company but generally around the 4-5 hours mark continuously driving. There are precious few comfort facilities in any cabs, most modern train cabs will have air-con, but no toilets, no music allowed, no electronic devices of any kind basically. Which, following a 1.30 a.m wake-up for a 3.00 a.m start and a two or three hour drive in the dark when fighting the natural urge to return to sleep, can be very challenging. Drivers are however allowed to eat and drink while on the move which does help alleviate the problem a bit.
 

ComUtoR

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Daft question time from someone who has never been in the driving side of a train...

There are no daft questions :)

When approaching a junction/points doe the train driver have any control over the direction in which the train "steers" onto the other track - e turn left/right/carry on straight ahead ?

No, This is all done by the signalling system. The Signaller will "set" the road ahead and the signal will display a route indication.

Next up: As i understand it train drivers will do some pretty long shifts in the cabs - are there limits on how long a train driver can drive for in the same way as lorry drivers?

At my TOC its 4hr 15min per block of driving with 6hrs between breaks

wand what comfort facilitys are there in the cabs, sucha s toilets/aircon

Depends on the trraction/unit. Some barely have a fan for 'aircon' Not seen one with a toilet as yet.

and music or radio to listen to to keep the driver active, awake and as an aid to concentration -

Seen more as a distraction rather than aid for concentration. Therefore they are not allowed (at least passenger side) not sure on freight.
 

Egg Centric

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also pint, the above answers are for UK mainline practice. Some trams permit drivers to set the route. Some locos have a toilet. Some drivers are allowed to listen to the radio.

The latter two as far as I know are not true in the UK though, whilst I know they're both allowed in other anglo-commonwealth countries. As for selecting a route in a tram honestly I'm not sure if it can be done in the UK or not - it is in some places. Definitely not in a proper train tho!

Equally, drivers here are allowed to take mobile phone calls. That's not the case in some other countries.
 

Undiscovered

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comfort facilitys are there in the cabs, sucha s toilets/aircon and music or radio
There is aircon in the cabs. Mostly either arctic expedition or desert journey settings. Some older units merely have a small desk fan screwed to the ceiling, which serves to blow the hot air around alot. Coupled with dashing, grey shirts, they make for some lovely sweat patterns in summertime.

No toilets in the cab. This very much influences those of us who love spicy food. This is now a treat for rest days only- 90minutes in an enclosed area with no means of relief is not an experience i would like to repeat. Now, if you were to put a comfy seat on an Eldis Porta Potty, you might be on to a winner...
 

Lee Rambo

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Well, I imagine it's not such a silly question to someone who has no idea of the mechanics of driving a train. I would think that a lot of people from outside the industry would imagine that a driver has to constantly use both hands when driving a train.

The train is controlled by a power and brake control handle. On older trains, these are separate handles, and on newer trains, they are combined into one handle. (Push it forward to apply the brake, pull it back to apply power, middle position is coasting.) The controls are not sprung, so once they are in the desired setting, you don't have to keep hold of them. So for the vast majority of the time, a driver is hands free, and only needs to use the hands to adjust the power/brake, operate the doors, radio, PA etc. The only thing the driver has to maintain constant control with is the DSD pedal, operated with the feet. That involves keeping the pedal pressed down all the time until the vigilance device beeps, at which point the driver releases the pedal and then presses it down again to cancel the beeps. If that's not done, the train's emergency brake applies.
Is the DSD pedal held down with one foot, or both feet?
 

D6130

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Equally, drivers here are allowed to take mobile phone calls. That's not the case in some other countries.
Not true for most, if not all passenger operating companies, and a potential dismissal offence if caught....certainly in the company for which I drove latterly.The only exception being in an emergency or degraded working situation, if there was no other means of contacting the signaller or control....and then only permitted when the train was at a stand with the driver's key removed.
 
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choochoochoo

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Not true for most, if not all passenger operating companies, and a potential dismissal offence if caught....certainly in the company for which I drove latterly.The only exception being in an emergency or degraded working situation, if there was no other means of contacting the signaller or control....and then only permitted when the train was at a stand with the driver's key removed.
Think the whole key removed thing is a bit excessive.

I like to use the company mobile to call 'fleet' so that the GSM-R is free for the signaller to get in touch should they need to, and I can have both on the line at the same time should I need to relay information between the two. Besides the GSM-R handset doesn't reach the non-driver's side MCBs/'cocks' should I need to do anything with them.

I think as long as the train is at a stand, brake at full service and direction switch at neutral, the use of a mobile in the cab should be ok. (There's varying opinions on putting in the DRA at this point too - It could lead to it's overuse if every time you took/made a call you used it and reduce it's effectiveness when there is truly a potential signal at danger ahead. But some argue that is it not then over used every time you get in a cab after relieving another driver (or even maybe when you first liven up the desk) ?)
 

ComUtoR

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I like to use the company mobile to call 'fleet' so that the GSM-R is free for the signaller to get in touch should they need to, and I can have both on the line at the same time should I need to relay information between the two.

The GSMR has a priority call system so of the Signaller did need you or there was an emergency, the GSMR will prioritize the call.

The GSMR also has a 'hold' function and can also create multiparty calls.

It's a clever piece of kit.
 

choochoochoo

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The GSMR has a priority call system so of the Signaller did need you or there was an emergency, the GSMR will prioritize the call.

The GSMR also has a 'hold' function and can also create multiparty calls.

It's a clever piece of kit.

It is very clever, but do we get any training on all the functionality. We only ever got taught the basics. And never given an instruction manual to go learn things for ourselves. - I was aware of the priority system, but didn't realise it'd put the other caller on hold.

The one time I tried to learn about it whilst I had massive dwell time in a depot, I can't remember exactly what I pressed (something like 'nearest trains') and I expected a list of nearest trains...instead it proceeded to call them all. - Decided it pack in playing about with it after that !!!

The thing with multiparty is you may not really know if you're going to need it at the start of a call. Can you add parties to an existing call ?

GSM-R doesn't solve the limited reach of the handset. - Also it's possible to use Teams to video call fleet.

Not sure about the quality of GSM-R line either. I often hear my echo on the line. Most off-putting !! Can GSM-R be 5G'd ?
 

ComUtoR

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It is very clever, but do we get any training on all the functionality. We only ever got taught the basics. And never given an instruction manual to go learn things for ourselves. - I was aware of the priority system, but didn't realise it'd put the other caller on hold.

When you get another incomming call it should give you the option. I've never seen it live. The training is something that differs wildy across all TOCs and Trainers. I know some DIs who will have a good hour going through the GSMR functions and others who ignore it completly. The GSMR handbook is available in the Rulebook app.

The one time I tried to learn about it whilst I had massive dwell time in a depot, I can't remember exactly what I pressed (something like 'nearest trains') and I expected a list of nearest trains...instead it proceeded to call them all. - Decided it pack in playing about with it after that !!!

It's good to have a nose around it when you have the time.

The thing with multiparty is you may not really know if you're going to need it at the start of a call. Can you add parties to an existing call ?

I'm not 100% and probably like everyone else. I'd prefer a person to person call and then call the other person back.

GSM-R doesn't solve the limited reach of the handset. - Also it's possible to use Teams to video call fleet.

Agreed. ITs limited to the cab/handset but from the CSR days its a huge improvement. The need for a mobile has been mitigated by its improved use but its still just a cab based system.

Not sure about the quality of GSM-R line either. I often hear my echo on the line. Most off-putting !! Can GSM-R be 5G'd ?

There is an echo test function but again, I've never really used it in anger and just know it as an existing feature. Maybe play with the volume settings. As to 5G. Ive heard that it isn't possible to upgrade it and I always thought it would be a simple simcard change. The technical side I tend to leave to the experts.
 

Dieseldriver

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whilst I had massive dwell time in a depot, I can't remember exactly what I pressed (something like 'nearest trains') and I expected a list of nearest trains...instead it proceeded to call them all. -
Yeah errm, you’re not the only Driver that’s done that!......
 

XAM2175

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Agreed. ITs limited to the cab/handset but from the CSR days its a huge improvement. The need for a mobile has been mitigated by its improved use but its still just a cab based system.
It is possible to obtain fully-mobile GSM-R handsets; they're used (or at least were used) by a few railways on the continent.

There is an echo test function but again, I've never really used it in anger and just know it as an existing feature. Maybe play with the volume settings. As to 5G. Ive heard that it isn't possible to upgrade it and I always thought it would be a simple simcard change. The technical side I tend to leave to the experts.

The "echo test" function - if similar to most other telecommunications systems - won't actually test for echo in the call; it tests your transceiver and handset by recording you saying something and then echoes it back to you.

There is at least one 4G implementation (called "LTE-R") being rolled out in South Korea, and the UIC's Future Railway Mobile Communication System working group is laying out plans for a 5G system, but the upgrade path for existing GSM-R systems will vary depending on the minimum specifications set by the network operator.
 

Stigy

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(There's varying opinions on putting in the DRA at this point too - It could lead to it's overuse if every time you took/made a call you used it and reduce it's effectiveness when there is truly a potential signal at danger ahead.
I wouldn’t say it’s overuse of the DRA, after all, using the phone in this situation is a rarity.
 

Highlandspring

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It is possible to obtain fully-mobile GSM-R handsets; they're used (or at least were used) by a few railways on the continent.

GSM-R mobile handhelds are used in the UK too. Made by Funkwerk they look like they’ve come straight from the mid 1990s.
 

physics34

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I'm sure that Richard Branson would say that the train driver has to keep their hands on the steering wheel at all times...
Ha ha i remember that fluff by Branson after the pendolino derailment lol

There is aircon in the cabs. Mostly either arctic expedition or desert journey settings. Some older units merely have a small desk fan screwed to the ceiling, which serves to blow the hot air around alot. Coupled with dashing, grey shirts, they make for some lovely sweat patterns in summertime.

No toilets in the cab. This very much influences those of us who love spicy food. This is now a treat for rest days only- 90minutes in an enclosed area with no means of relief is not an experience i would like to repeat. Now, if you were to put a comfy seat on an Eldis Porta Potty, you might be on to a winner...

There is aircon in the cabs. Mostly either arctic expedition or desert journey settings. Some older units merely have a small desk fan screwed to the ceiling, which serves to blow the hot air around alot. Coupled with dashing, grey shirts, they make for some lovely sweat patterns in summertime.

No toilets in the cab. This very much influences those of us who love spicy food. This is now a treat for rest days only- 90minutes in an enclosed area with no means of relief is not an experience i would like to repeat. Now, if you were to put a comfy seat on an Eldis Porta Potty, you might be on to a winner...
Same here.. i will not eat curry if iam early shift next morning.
 
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