E ticket. Decryption failed

[mikeg]

Hi I bought an e ticket from Northallerton to York, CDR any permitted. Just now on the train the guard scanned it and it came up 'This is not a valid ticket, decryption failed'. Given that it most definitely is valid, what is the cause of this?
He let me off as he'd seen it in the Chiltern app but this is rather concerning.

 

[Adam Williams]

You bought it from Chiltern? I'd contact their customer services.

It's possible that the data in the e-Ticket was read incorrectly by the reader which is why the decryption failed.. but the Aztec barcodes make use of error-correcting Reed Solomon to try and prevent this so it seems unlikely. Did the guard try it multiple times?

 

[alistairlees]

Hi I bought an e ticket from Northallerton to York, CDR any permitted. Just now on the train the guard scanned it and it came up 'This is not a valid ticket, decryption failed'. Given that it most definitely is valid, what is the cause of this?
He let me off as he'd seen it in the Chiltern app but this is rather concerning.

Maybe new keys, not yet distributed. Not your problem, if that is the case, though it is rather bad if it's the case.

 

[mikeg]

Hi yes the guard tried multiple times on both the pdf and in app. Will contact chiltern

 

[Joe Paxton]

Maybe new keys, not yet distributed. Not your problem, if that is the case, though it is rather bad if it's the case.

If that is indeed the case, then it's another win for the forward looking railway industry...

 

[yorkie]

Hi I bought an e ticket from Northallerton to York, CDR any permitted. Just now on the train the guard scanned it and it came up 'This is not a valid ticket, decryption failed'. Given that it most definitely is valid, what is the cause of this?
He let me off as he'd seen it in the Chiltern app but this is rather concerning.

Another Guard making things up as they go along, I see.

It could be the Guard's company's supplier not having updated the security key.

Or it could be Chiltern's TIS supplier not having provided the security key.

 

[Haywain]

Another Guard making things up as they go along, I see.

A bit harsh given that the guard apparently stated what his TIS told him but accepted the ticket as valid regardless.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Another Guard making things up as they go along, I see.
...

A bit harsh given that the guard apparently stated what his TIS told him but accepted the ticket as valid regardless.

Agreed.

 

[yorkie]

OK I'd like to know more information about what was said, but if any suggestion was made that either the ticket was "invalid" and/or that the customer was "let off" then I wouldn't see either of those as being acceptable.

If the Guard was clear that they were not suggesting the ticket was invalid and did not in any way suggest the customer was being "let off" then fair enough.

In my experience, every time a customer is "let off" the customer's ticket has been valid; but that makes absolutely no sense, as you cannot "let someone off" for not doing anything wrong in the first place. Sorry but I'm sick of it, and it needs calling out.

 

[LowLevel]

OK I'd like to know more information about what was said, but if any suggestion was made that either the ticket was "invalid" and/or that the customer was "let off" then I wouldn't see either of those as being acceptable.

If the Guard was clear that they were not suggesting the ticket was invalid and did not in any way suggest the customer was being "let off" then fair enough.

In my experience, every time a customer is "let off" the customer's ticket has been valid; but that makes absolutely no sense, as you cannot "let someone off" for not doing anything wrong in the first place. Sorry but I'm sick of it, and it needs calling out.

If the TIS specifically states that the ticket is invalid then that is a matter for the back office and not the guard.

I've seen this but know nothing about it and for the less technically minded guards out there their machine telling them on scanning "ticket not valid" (it does indeed say pretty much that) it seems unreasonable to criticise them for taking that on face value. The guard is entitled to rely on the equipment they are given and it failing to be designed or maintained correctly, whatever the problem root cause is, is hardly their problem. I do agree that is is the TOC or app owner's problem, whichever is responsible, and there should be redress against them.

It doesn't say "error" or "decryption failed - error #1234" as would be sensible, it specifically says not valid.

 

[yorkie]

I agree that the back office is at fault for that, but everyone within any company has to ensure that customers are treated fairly and appropriately and lawfully.

It's an internal railway industry matter and the error is not really of the customers concern. I would have no issue with the Guard sharing the exact error message providing they do so in a manner that does not in any way incorrectly suggest wrongdoing on the part of the customer, and should definitely not be suggesting the customer was "let off".

Anyone working in a customer-facing role is representing the company and must act appropriately; sadly the rail industry has a terrible track record in this area.

 

[PupCuff]

Unfortunately, if the rail industry let everyone off who claimed their ticket was valid when it wasn't, there wouldn't be any point in issuing tickets at all, we might as well just make it a free service! The duty is on the customer to provide a valid ticket. The correct course of action in this case would have been for the conductor to take down the customer's details and complete a Travel Irregularity Report which would allow the train company to conduct an investigation into whether it was an issuing error/problem with the reader, or whether the ticket was fraudulent. If it doesn't get investigated, if there is a problem it won't get fixed and potentially hundreds of other people could be faced with the same issue, which is hardly good customer service.

 

[yorkie]

Unfortunately, if the rail industry let everyone off who claimed their ticket was valid when it wasn't, there wouldn't be any point in issuing tickets at all, we might as well just make it a free service!

That isn't a valid excuse for suggesting a valid ticket may not be valid or "letting people off", nor would this wash if the company were to be in breach of contract & consumer laws by making an incorrect charge.

There are ways and means to do to this. Yes the matter can be investigated but it must be done in a sensible and appropriate manner.

It's the rail industry's responsibility to get the encryption keys sorted. I was aware of an issue about a year ago where Avanti staff at a particular location (it may have been across the company, I don't know) were unable to read any tickets issued by a particular retailer, and the reason was because their supplier had not loaded the encryption keys, which had been supplied to then many weeks prior. A member of staff contacted me and I was able to get some relevant people onto the case and it was then resolved promptly. As far as I am aware, no accusations were made, and the matter was handled sensitively, at least by the staff member who contacted me.

I am not saying things shouldn't be investigated but they need to be done in the right way.

 

[Mag_seven]

The duty is on the customer to provide a valid ticket.

In this case they did provide a valid ticket.

 

[Wallsendmag]

If you want to send me a private message I can try scanning it for you.

 

[fishquinn]

The correct course of action in this case would have been for the conductor to take down the customer's details and complete a Travel Irregularity Report which would allow the train company to conduct an investigation into whether it was an issuing error/problem with the reader, or whether the ticket was fraudulent. If it doesn't get investigated, if there is a problem it won't get fixed and potentially hundreds of other people could be faced with the same issue, which is hardly good customer service.

Are you serious? If there's ANY doubt over the validity of a ticket then it should be accepted and the customer in no way penalised for what may be a lack in training/software malfunction. A customer who has bought their ticket in good faith through an app (or any medium) should never have their details taken down for questioning and I'd despise any guard/RPI that would.

 

[alistairlees]

This is all getting a bit out of hand. Those who are flinging accusations around, jumping to conclusions, or making baseless assertions should stop doing so until the facts are established.

Given that the message referred to a problem decrypting the barcode, then it is likely that the scanner being used didn’t have the correct key, for whatever reason. It’s also possible that the scanner simply couldn’t read the barcode (screen reflection, or some other reason).

However, neither of these things mean that the ticket was not valid. A quick check of the barcode, as has been proposed, will determine whether it is or not, and whether the key is in circulation or not.

After looking at the barcode it can be determined what the cause of the problem was.

 

[yorkie]

Given that the message referred to a problem decrypting the barcode, then it is likely that the scanner being used didn’t have the correct key, for whatever reason. It’s also possible that the scanner simply couldn’t read the barcode (screen reflection, or some other reason)

Very much agreed.

 

[mikeg]

@Wallsendmag please only scan the outward portion as I've yet to use the return, you have a pm

The guard said he'd never seen the error before and that he did not suspect the ticket was fake on the basis that i showed him it in the app. I fear it may have been different if I'd merely had a printout

 

[Starmill]

It's questionable for the machine to ever say that the ticket isn't valid in my view. It could either say that it is valid or say why it might not be valid. A member of staff can then take a decision on the validity or otherwise of the ticket held. Why give any retail training to revenue staff if that's not possible?

I've heard of guards scanning family and friends tickets, which almost always don't work correctly, and telling the customer that the ticket isn't valid, only to realise, once prompted to read the ticket using their eyes rather than a machine, that it is valid.

 

[mikeg]

I'm also having trouble finding adequate contact details other than phone or post for Chiltern... I'll send an email to tpe though, who operated the service I was on.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I'm also having trouble finding adequate contact details other than phone or post for Chiltern... I'll send an email to tpe though, who operated the service I was on.

Chiltern have a web contact form at https://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/contact-us - Though you have to scroll quite a way down the page to find it.

 

[mikeg]

That seemed only to be for refunds, I guess I could give it a try anyway.

 

[CyrusWuff]

There's a section headed "Enquiry Details", which has a dropdown labelled "Enquiry Type" to choose where the issue is. One of the options there is "Online Bookings".

As is often the case these days, everything goes through a central system, hence the lack of individual email addresses.

 

[mikeg]

Ah thanks, @CyrusWuff

That said, it appears not to be Chiltern's problem but TPE's. @Wallsendmag has checked and the ticket definitely shows as valid and okay on his system.

If anyone is wondering why I buy from Chiltern despite travelling with TPE, it's for cashback purposes by the way.

 

[yorkie]

Yes this is definitely a TPE issue, so not really much point in contacting Chiltern; that said if TPE don't take this seriously then it could be worth contacting Chiltern, on the basis that Chiltern could contact TPE and ask them to get their act together.

I have contacts at Chiltern so if it comes to it, let me know.

 

[Hadders]

If anyone is wondering why I buy from Chiltern despite travelling with TPE, it's for cashback purposes by the way.

Chiltern cashback via Topcashback has recently been reduced to 0.85% if purchasing tickets for travel on another TOC so they have lost my custom now.

 

[mikeg]

1% on Quidco and that must be very recent. I'll let you know how I get on with TPE.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Could always be one rogue machine that hasn't updated for whatever reason, we look after Star Mobile for TPE at Newcastle but I haven't had much interaction with it.

 

[alistairlees]

So basically it’s not a key distribution problem, but a key updating problem.