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East Midlands Railway short formed services

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I've just come off an East Midlands Rover last Week and can confirm it really is just random as to what turns up on the Reigonals. Don't think I saw a single 170 on Crewe/North Staffs all of the 3 days all 156/158. Didn't have a problem with crowding on any trains bar one (a 158 on a Norwich on Friday afternoon was reasonably loaded but not to a 'concerning' degree)
 
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embers25

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1257 from Norwich yesterday was a single 156 and left late due to a fault and arrived at Nottingham late and was cancelled there, 7 mins after the restarted Liverpool portion left!!
 

dk1

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1257 from Norwich yesterday was a single 156 and left late due to a fault and arrived at Nottingham late and was cancelled there, 7 mins after the restarted Liverpool portion left!!
All over the shop again today. Multiple EMR units platformed in Norwich again all day.
 

Failed Unit

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I think the thing that will upset passengers most is consecutive departures going in the bin. I saw earlier 2 Norwich - Liverpool’s cancelled leaving a 3 hour gap between services. Hope they sort it quick and it doesn’t become another GTR
 

ChrisC

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Like most EMR routes there have been quite a few cancellations these last few days on the Robin Hood Line. In addition to this time keeping on that route has been appalling since the full time table was restored on 16th May. Some days there has hardly been a single train running on time and some trains have been 20 or more minutes late. I know that with the long single line section, one delayed train can upset the timetable for an hour or two, but currently it seems to be late trains all day, every day. Considering the restraints of the the long single line section timekeeping on the Robin Hood Line has mostly been very good. There were not these problems pre Covid and indeed for the last 20 years so what is going wrong now?
 

Killingworth

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There were not these problems pre Covid and indeed for the last 20 years so what is going wrong now?
The loss of a lot of old trains and the late arrival of replacements. Crew training issues. Then the sudden return of lots more passengers than we've seen for many months, confounding doomsters and testing all systems for handling them!
 

RH Liner

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Like most EMR routes there have been quite a few cancellations these last few days on the Robin Hood Line. In addition to this time keeping on that route has been appalling since the full time table was restored on 16th May. Some days there has hardly been a single train running on time and some trains have been 20 or more minutes late. I know that with the long single line section, one delayed train can upset the timetable for an hour or two, but currently it seems to be late trains all day, every day. Considering the restraints of the the long single line section timekeeping on the Robin Hood Line has mostly been very good. There were not these problems pre Covid and indeed for the last 20 years so what is going wrong now?
This is a virtual ‘like’ button. Most of the single track section could readily be doubled if the Will is there, and maybe paying for that should have been the quid pro quo by the NET for their having taken over what was previously the down line between Highbury Vale and Hucknall, which was handed over far too easily.
 

bunnahabhain

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This is a virtual ‘like’ button. Most of the single track section could readily be doubled if the Will is there, and maybe paying for that should have been the quid pro quo by the NET for their having taken over what was previously the down line between Highbury Vale and Hucknall, which was handed over far too easily.
The double track on the modern day RHL never extended as far as Hucknall, it ended just beyond Bulwell Station. When first opened to Newstead it was operated using a huge brass staff from Bestwood Park Junction signalbox. A popular story told by some old hands has it that the staff landed on the signalmans head and knocked him clean out.
 

ChrisC

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The double track on the modern day RHL never extended as far as Hucknall, it ended just beyond Bulwell Station. When first opened to Newstead it was operated using a huge brass staff from Bestwood Park Junction signalbox. A popular story told by some old hands has it that the staff landed on the signalmans head and knocked him clean out.
As I said in my earlier post I know the long single line section can cause a few problems if there is any late running but I don’t think that is the main reason for the current problems. Once again today there has hardly been any trains on time passing through Hucknall in both directions. Most have been been running between 5 and 10 minutes late. This only used to happen very occasionally and time keeping on the line pre Covid timetables was always very good. Why has this happened now that the full timetable has been restored again when they managed to run on time to a similar timetable for the previous 20 years. Is it the 170’s that cant keep time with lots of stops and the long continuous gradient up through Bulwell, Hucknall and Newstead? It really is happening every day.

Anyway, sorry for bringing this subject up as this is a straying way off the thread of EMR short formed services.
 

WesternLancer

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As I said in my earlier post I know the long single line section can cause a few problems if there is any late running but I don’t think that is the main reason for the current problems. Once again today there has hardly been any trains on time passing through Hucknall in both directions. Most have been been running between 5 and 10 minutes late. This only used to happen very occasionally and time keeping on the line pre Covid timetables was always very good. Why has this happened now that the full timetable has been restored again when they managed to run on time to a similar timetable for the previous 20 years. Is it the 170’s that cant keep time with lots of stops and the long continuous gradient up through Bulwell, Hucknall and Newstead? It really is happening every day.

Anyway, sorry for bringing this subject up as this is a straying way off the thread of EMR short formed services.
would seem hard to imagine it is primarily a 170 fault, after all they worked the route in Central Trains days.
 

RH Liner

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As I said in my earlier post I know the long single line section can cause a few problems if there is any late running but I don’t think that is the main reason for the current problems. Once again today there has hardly been any trains on time passing through Hucknall in both directions. Most have been been running between 5 and 10 minutes late. This only used to happen very occasionally and time keeping on the line pre Covid timetables was always very good. Why has this happened now that the full timetable has been restored again when they managed to run on time to a similar timetable for the previous 20 years. Is it the 170’s that cant keep time with lots of stops and the long continuous gradient up through Bulwell, Hucknall and Newstead? It really is happening every day.

Anyway, sorry for bringing this subject up as this is a straying way off the thread of EMR short formed services.
Some services have been skipping stations between Mansfield Woodhouse and Nottingham to try to make up time, even missing out Mansfield Town which is the main station on the line.
The blurb prior to the new timetable looked attractive - better quality trains, Mansfield to Nottingham in a fastest ever level half-hour etc. The reality has been a disaster and no-one seems able to do anything about it.
Two interpretations of explanations for delays on this line on the Network Rail site:
This train has been delayed by congestion = this train has had to sit and wait for a late runner coming off the hopelessly inadequate single track.
This train has been delayed by a late running train in front of this one = the late running train in front of this one was this one running in the opposite direction and arriving late at the terminus.
 

dk1

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Long distance services all over the place at the Norwich end today with delays & cancellations rife. GA conveying EMR passengers. Those I’ve seen running appear predominantly to be 156s with two 158s abandoned all day in Norwich Jubilee sidings.
 

LowLevel

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Long distance services all over the place at the Norwich end today with delays & cancellations rife. GA conveying EMR passengers. Those I’ve seen running appear predominantly to be 156s with two 158s abandoned all day in Norwich Jubilee sidings.
Driver sickness at Norwich.
 

Trainfan2019

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A couple of nights ago this week I'm sure I read in the EMR app - travel updates - that a Derby to Sheffield (or Sheffield to Derby) service was shortformed to 2 carriages. It was around 22:00ish. Is this a special service that comes off a Norwich/Liverpool train as I thought Derby/Sheffield services were all 222s?

As I'm typing this post, tomorrow's (Friday's) cancellations are appearing on the EMR app. Quite a lot again.
 

IceBlue

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Two of the five trains required for the Crewe - Newark service were cancelled today. Not looking good for my important trip to Derby on Saturday ...
I was on one today (thankfully catching the cancellations before I left and avoided being stuck in Stoke for an hour)- Only saw 156s on the route and for a mid afternoon train, it was pretty well loaded.

Hoping for better tomorrow for the return leg.
 

_toommm_

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A couple of nights ago this week I'm sure I read in the EMR app - travel updates - that a Derby to Sheffield (or Sheffield to Derby) service was shortformed to 2 carriages. It was around 22:00ish. Is this a special service that comes off a Norwich/Liverpool train as I thought Derby/Sheffield services were all 222s?

As I'm typing this post, tomorrow's (Friday's) cancellations are appearing on the EMR app. Quite a lot again.

There's 1C07, the 21:56 from Sheffield to Derby calling at Chesterfield, Belper and Derby. This comes off 1R84, the 17:50 Norwich to Sheffield arriving Sheffield at 21:32.

I'm guessing it's booked for four carriages, which sounds right if it's reporting a shortform of two carriages. It certainly won't be formed of a Meridian like the rest of the Derby services are.

For the life of me I can't remember this existing before the May 2021 TT, and if it did, it probably formed off a service ex. London so it would have been a Meridian. I remember it caught my eye hwen I was looking over Sheffield departures for post-May 2021 TT>
 

Killingworth

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There's 1C07, the 21:56 from Sheffield to Derby calling at Chesterfield, Belper and Derby. This comes off 1R84, the 17:50 Norwich to Sheffield arriving Sheffield at 21:32.

I'm guessing it's booked for four carriages, which sounds right if it's reporting a shortform of two carriages. It certainly won't be formed of a Meridian like the rest of the Derby services are.

For the life of me I can't remember this existing before the May 2021 TT, and if it did, it probably formed off a service ex. London so it would have been a Meridian. I remember it caught my eye hwen I was looking over Sheffield departures for post-May 2021 TT>
Wasn't it previously an ECS used for route knowledge?
 

dk1

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17:50 & 18:56 ex-Norwich have for as long as I can remember terminated Nottingham. Since May 17th when the new timetable started both have been extended to Sheffield & joined by a new 20:08 Norwich-Nottingham.
 

LowLevel

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17:50 & 18:56 ex-Norwich have for as long as I can remember terminated Nottingham. Since May 17th when the new timetable started both have been extended to Sheffield & joined by a new 20:08 Norwich-Nottingham.

Though I don't think the latter has ever actually managed to run owing to driver shortages - that whole driver diagram is currently planned to be cancelled every day.

Rumours abound that an amended timetable for the Regional operation will be introduced as soon as it is feasible to produce one because the current random pattern of cancellations can't continue.
 

dk1

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Though I don't think the latter has ever actually managed to run owing to driver shortages - that whole driver diagram is currently planned to be cancelled every day.

Rumours abound that an amended timetable for the Regional operation will be introduced as soon as it is feasible to produce one because the current random pattern of cancellations can't continue.
I don’t think many of them have run on time even if they where luck enough to run. The 17:50 has been awful & last night followed the 18:23 Norwich-Cambridge again.
 

londonmidland

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Mutual ticket acceptance with Northern between Nottingham and Sheffield due to overcrowding as a result of short forms.
 

trentvalley

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All this reminds me of the West Midlands Trains timetable change Cancellations, skipping stops, very late running etc.

stations not having a service for hours on end (Cannock/Stone/Penkridge etc)

Both timetables introduced by Abellio
 

Mugby

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Just had a look at the special timetable for the Norwich service, tomorrow and Sunday, nothing running between Grantham and Norwich due to engineering work, passengers between those two points will have almost a three hour bus journey.

It's got me wondering, is there really engineering work taking place all the way between Grantham and Norwich or are the cancellations due to driver shortage being passed off as engineering work on an unknowing public?
 

dk1

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Just had a look at the special timetable for the Norwich service, tomorrow and Sunday, nothing running between Grantham and Norwich due to engineering work, passengers between those two points will have almost a three hour bus journey.

It's got me wondering, is there really engineering work taking place all the way between Grantham and Norwich or are the cancellations due to driver shortage being passed off as engineering work on an unknowing public?
There are other operators on the sections that are open. With blocks Norwich-Wymondham & Peterborough-Grantham it makes sense. GA are using the Wymondham Up Siding overnight for two units so no room at the inn here.
 

Watershed

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Just had a look at the special timetable for the Norwich service, tomorrow and Sunday, nothing running between Grantham and Norwich due to engineering work, passengers between those two points will have almost a three hour bus journey.

It's got me wondering, is there really engineering work taking place all the way between Grantham and Norwich or are the cancellations due to driver shortage being passed off as engineering work on an unknowing public?
These changes were already advertised some time ago, so I don't think they have anything to do with the driver shortage.

I suspect it has more to do with there being engineering works both between Peterborough and Grantham, and between Norwich and Wymondham. So in theory they could operate a split Wymondham-Peterborough and Grantham-Liverpool service but the former service is pretty pointless as it would mean Norwich-Nottingham etc. passengers having to change three times rather than just once.

Also the practicalities to consider, i.e. how would they resource it, where would the units stable and be fuelled/CET'd...
 

Jozhua

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It really doesn't surprise me that this is happening.

The really frustrating thing is government is going to complain that "ridership is poor" nationwide, despite it being very high % of capacity for places like the Midlands and North. Cuts will be done nationally, not taking into account how these services are already overcrowded, despite not even being fully out of lockdown.

EMR has always been pretty bad for overcrowding. Generally the East Midlands is a black hole when it comes to public transport offerings, especially rail, one of the reasons I'm not so happy to be moving back!

Much of the problem is a shortage of drivers passed on 170s causing 15x to have to deputise on their diagrams which in turn causes 15x shortages. 170s also can't work in service in multi with 15x as the PA systems are mostly not compatible causing further restriction still. They have been trying to get 170s out where possible on to other diagrams but it involves checking out individual drivers and guards rostered on a given day for crew competency which can be challenging. Down to 5 working 153s, 2 of which are required for Barton on Humber, 156918 is in store at Barrow Hill (good riddance - it is not a good unit) and 156902 is at Wolverton for overhaul. A low speed derailment at Etches Park last week has taken 2 stabling roads out further squeezing capacity, they're awaiting parts with a lead time for repair. 158863 has been out of use since December when it derailed at Eastcroft, one vehicle of that is at Doncaster for repairs to significant damage.

It is the kind of thing that will be sorted over time but for now it is a problem.

If you remember Greater Anglia 18 months ago that was a fairly similar disaster. I personally have everything crossed that things will start coming together much sooner.
Can't the drivers use the PA systems? It just seems a bit of a ridiculous thing to be causing problems for the service.

Talking of short formed EMR services, the Crewe route seems to have lost the luxury of 3 carriage 170s since the route extension and timetable changes. Now seems to be 2 carriage 158s or 156s again. Any reason for this?
To be fair, last time I used the route it was almost always a single 153.

To be fair, it doesn't take Covid to make overcrowding on trains annoying.
True
The whole farce lies firmly at the feet of Grayling and the DfT. Cancelling MML electrification then imposing PRM restrictions on stock without having sufficient stock to cover the shortfall. Wether through delayed cascades or delayed ordering of new trains. This is a classic case of the result of civil servants running the railway and not railway experienced specialists. The simple solution would have been to have retained the HSTs until their replacement was ordered, constructed and in operational service. Instead non-prm compliant HSTs were replaced with not-so-non-prm compliant HSTs which actually didn't work and were in a poorer condition. Had the knitting been strung up as planned the 365s could at least have been deployed until the 810s arrived. Instead we are left with the mess of a motley mix of rolling stock that is short formed while other trains are sidelined because they haven't been able to train the staff, COVID has merely exasperated the situation, not caused it
I agree.

One would hope that GBR will help avoid the government being able to deflect blame, but I'm sure they will. It's still going to take them ages to come up with any kind of strategy in terms of infrastructure, when they very likely could act immediately and just do a rolling electrification program, starting with routes that had their projects cancelled.

Don't get me wrong, I'm angry that the MML electrification was postponed then cancelled, and baffled by the PRM related madness that went on with the MML HSTs, but I really struggle to see how electrification would have been the solution here. Apart from the fact that the electrification almost certainly wouldn't be complete - so you'd only be able to run a full electric service to say, Leicester, replacing the HSTs and Meridians with 365s would be pathing (and more no doubt) non-starters. Presumably you'd have then cascaded 222s onto the regional services to provide them with PRM compliant stock - which would still require training for most staff! EMR intercity (& connect) has been fine, bar some teething troubles with the 360s and the 180s notoriously patchy reliability.

Apart from Covid, the "root cause" of EMR Regional's stock issues is the late introduction of the 196s at WMR, delaying the cascade of the 170s.

More generally, there is a shortage of DMUs. It would have likely been easier to source cascaded units had projects in other areas of the country not also been cancelled. The problems with wanting carbon neutrality by 2040, yet not having an electrified network to cope with those goals are going to come when the aging diesel stock issue is piling up, yet the DafT want to avoid ordering any new DMUs, considering they would be scrapped before the end of their useful life.

Something needs to change quickly, that involves electrification more generally, so we don't end up with loads of DMUs going on the scrapheap after 10 years, or end up with many DMUs hitting 50/60 and succuming to terrible reliablity and passenger experience.


Two of the five trains required for the Crewe - Newark service were cancelled today. Not looking good for my important trip to Derby on Saturday ...
Not looking good for my important trip from MCR - Notts on Wednesday!
 

londonmidland

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Another day, another short form. 1R64 0755 Norwich to Liverpool Lime Street full and standing from Chesterfield.
 

LowLevel

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No 170s in traffic today apparently for some reason, not sure why.
 
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