ECML Disruption 08/08/22 - Hay on the line at Biggleswade

[ST156]

Significant disruption across the south end of the East Coast Mainline this afternoon due to "Hay on the line" at Biggleswade. Does anyone have any further information regarding the issue?

Seems that no electric trains can currently pass through the area, diesel only.

 

[James H]

There are pictures here on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/TLRailUK/status/1556693122297511937

 

[Dave91131]

Nothing to see here according to the LNER website - apparently a good service is operating.

Don't know what all the fuss is about.

 

[edwin_m]

Was it the last straw? Did all the passengers bale? Was there a stack of trains queueing up?

 

[Purple Train]

If it had become tangled up in the overhead lines I'd imagine the service would have gone haywire.

 

[MikeWM]

Lots of long delays on the GN side, seemingly as usual when something goes wrong on the Peterborough route. Plus the Liverpool Street side having problems, so Cambridge not looking too healthy.

Combine that with the signal failure at Ely this morning which made me an hour late for work, and it is increasingly hard to avoid concluding that things really aren't in a very good state right now. I don't recall anything remotely like this frequency of infrastructure problems pre-2020.

 

[hexagon789]

If it had become tangled up in the overhead lines I'd imagine the service would have gone haywire.

It did get tangled up in the OLE

 

[Bayum]

Was it the last straw? Did all the passengers bale? Was there a stack of trains queueing up?

Stop pulling at short straws…

Was it the last straw? Did all the passengers bale? Was there a stack of trains queueing up?

You took those straight from the horse’s mouth.

 

[Failed Unit]

Lots of long delays on the GN side, seemingly as usual when something goes wrong on the Peterborough route. Plus the Liverpool Street side having problems, so Cambridge not looking too healthy.

Combine that with the signal failure at Ely this morning which made me an hour late for work, and it is increasingly hard to avoid concluding that things really aren't in a very good state right now. I don't recall anything remotely like this frequency of infrastructure problems pre-2020

sometimes it is hard to appreciate how it all links together. Moorgate- WGC and WGC - Sevenoaks had big delays tonight considering it was out of the area. I guess staff caught up elsewhere.

 

[Purple Train]

It did get tangled up in the OLE

Truth is straw-ly stranger than fiction!

 

[frediculous]

I was on a Peterborough service that terminated at Finsbury Park after waiting there for a good half an hour or so. Advised to get on the next Cambridge service, which was very busy. Got slower and slower, later and later. A long queue forming south of Welwyn, as one platform seemed occupied. Once we'd cleared that (now running 30 late, but I was now 50 late), we arrived at Knebworth....and that was it.

Two 800s in P3&4 at Stevenage and some services stuck between, including a 700 hanging off the end of P4. Had to get picked up from there (having told the Mrs to get me from Stevenage rather than Sandy), and eventually got indoors over 2 hours later than expected.

I noticed the train I was on eventually moved after a 70min dwell at Knebworth, arriving at Cambridge 124mins late.

Dreadful journey.

 

[oscarthecat92]

I was on one of those 800s sat in Stevenage. 164 minutes late arriving into Leeds. To add insult to injury they cancelled it Leeds to Harrogate and a 1 hour wait ensues for the next Northern Rail to Harrogate. Quite possibly the worst journey I’ve had.

 

[bramling]

sometimes it is hard to appreciate how it all links together. Moorgate- WGC and WGC - Sevenoaks had big delays tonight considering it was out of the area. I guess staff caught up elsewhere.

It’s an interesting question what diversionary knowledge Horsham-Peterborough drivers have, given that GTR has tended to silo drivers onto particular routes. I don’t believe it is now possible for them to simply divert down the Cambridge branch, for example.

Is this contributing to the current abysmal GN performance, in particular how things seem to completely melt down across the *entire* route when something happens, and often resulting in carnage for the entire day?

To be brutally honest, the GN is now so unreliable it is almost unusable. I have all but given up on the service, as quite simply any time I travel there are problems, and it now seems there’s a full meltdown at least once a week. Never been this bad in my lifetime, and a far cry from the days of 2005-2015 when you could set your watch by the service (apart from the odd off day at weekends!).

Given the constant unreliability, is it now time for Horsham-Peterborough to be pulled?

 

[Magdalia]

It’s an interesting question what diversionary knowledge Horsham-Peterborough drivers have, given that GTR has tended to silo drivers onto particular routes. I don’t believe it is now possible for them to simply divert down the Cambridge branch, for example.

Is this contributing to the current abysmal GN performance, in particular how things seem to completely melt down across the *entire* route when something happens, and often resulting in carnage for the entire day?

To be brutally honest, the GN is now so unreliable it is almost unusable. I have all but given up on the service, as quite simply any time I travel there are problems, and it now seems there’s a full meltdown at least once a week. Never been this bad in my lifetime, and a far cry from the days of 2005-2015 when you could set your watch by the service (apart from the odd off day at weekends!).

Given the constant unreliability, is it now time for Horsham-Peterborough to be pulled?

Back in the days before 2018 Peterborough drivers had booked work to/from Cambridge. I don't know if they retain that now.

For resilience purposes, the key requirement is for the Horsham-Peterborough drivers to be able to get to Letchworth, where trains can reverse on the A/D lines or be dumped in the carriage sidings.

I don't think it is time to dump Horsham-Peterborough, but the time for deliverable plans for partial services during disruption is long overdue. The Thameslink timetable seems to have been designed in a fantasy land where nothing ever goes wrong.

 

[Acherk]

It’s an interesting question what diversionary knowledge Horsham-Peterborough drivers have, given that GTR has tended to silo drivers onto particular routes. I don’t believe it is now possible for them to simply divert down the Cambridge branch, for example.

Is this contributing to the current abysmal GN performance, in particular how things seem to completely melt down across the *entire* route when something happens, and often resulting in carnage for the entire day?

To be brutally honest, the GN is now so unreliable it is almost unusable. I have all but given up on the service, as quite simply any time I travel there are problems, and it now seems there’s a full meltdown at least once a week. Never been this bad in my lifetime, and a far cry from the days of 2005-2015 when you could set your watch by the service (apart from the odd off day at weekends!).

Given the constant unreliability, is it now time for Horsham-Peterborough to be pulled?

I have been commuting from Huntingdon since 2014 and fully agree that the service has gone to pot in recent months after it had already worsened since the introduction of the Horsham - Peterborough services in 2018. It is noticeable that when those services are curtailed to work to/from KGX (as has happened on certain days recently) reliability seems to improve. This cannot be a coincidence…

I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve arrived at Finsbury Park only to see the service cancelled due to driver shortages or some disruption miles away in south London. It simply cannot be relied upon either on a weekday or weekend and it is not uncommon to be sitting on the platform for an hour watching the other Thameslink services go by on time.

Surely consideration could be given to rationalising the Horsham services in some way to increase reliability on a route which, as Bramling says, used to be quite good. Particularly as there is now increased capacity at Kings Cross with the new lines into the station.

Last night’s disruption was terrible and, whilst these things happen, the response was poor. Had I not worked out my own plan rather than relying upon the information given I would have been home at least an hour later. The 19.18 from KGX was half full and it was obvious as we passed through a rammed Finsbury Park, Stevenage, etc that no consideration had been given to the passengers stranded at those stations heading up the line to Peterborough.

Whether or not Thameslink/GN are concerned with any of this or not is open to debate but as someone who continues to see what was a good, reliable service descend into chaos and despair I hope that they have some plan in place to improve it. The biggest irony is that none of the changes were needed in the first place.

 

[DanNCL]

To be brutally honest, the GN is now so unreliable it is almost unusable. I have all but given up on the service, as quite simply any time I travel there are problems, and it now seems there’s a full meltdown at least once a week. Never been this bad in my lifetime, and a far cry from the days of 2005-2015 when you could set your watch by the service (apart from the odd off day at weekends!).

Given the constant unreliability, is it now time for Horsham-Peterborough to be pulled?

Try using TPE regularly, they make GTR look reliable!

For resilience purposes, the key requirement is for the Horsham-Peterborough drivers to be able to get to Letchworth, where trains can reverse on the A/D lines or be dumped in the carriage sidings.

If LNER can shunt a 91+Mark 4 set onto the start of the Cambridge route to get it out of the way, GTR should be able to divert to Letchworth. It wouldn’t be an unrealistic expectation of them.

 

[MikeWM]

And this morning I'm sitting around at Ely again as my train has been cancelled due to a 'points failure'. So now I'll be late for work two days running. Wonderful.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

It’s an interesting question what diversionary knowledge Horsham-Peterborough drivers have, given that GTR has tended to silo drivers onto particular routes. I don’t believe it is now possible for them to simply divert down the Cambridge branch, for example.

Is this contributing to the current abysmal GN performance, in particular how things seem to completely melt down across the *entire* route when something happens, and often resulting in carnage for the entire day?

To be brutally honest, the GN is now so unreliable it is almost unusable. I have all but given up on the service, as quite simply any time I travel there are problems, and it now seems there’s a full meltdown at least once a week. Never been this bad in my lifetime, and a far cry from the days of 2005-2015 when you could set your watch by the service (apart from the odd off day at weekends!).

Given the constant unreliability, is it now time for Horsham-Peterborough to be pulled?

I really don't think the problem is as bad as you make out.

It certainly won't be pulled. That I can guarantee.

 

[MikeWM]

It certainly won't be pulled. That I can guarantee.

Probably so - but it *has* been pulled the last two Saturdays - shuttle from Peterborough to Stevenage, with the Cambridge fasts making extra stops at Finsbury Park and Stevenage to collect passengers.

I do think a lot of the problems here are related to the inability of GN to recover service after something goes wrong, something I've moaned about on here numerous times over the past 4 years or so. I don't know if that is because the network is too complex, or the drivers are in the wrong places, or whatever, but once something goes wrong the rest of the day is a disaster, almost every time. I don't see that on other TOCs - eg. if Greater Anglia have an issue, in my experience they are almost always pretty much back to timetable within a couple of hours of the problem being resolved.

Combine that with what feels like a large increase in the number of infrastructure or equipment failures we've seen over the last month or two, and it's not a good experience to be travelling around here right now. Add in the strikes too, and it all seems pretty dismal in fact.

 

[Magdalia]

I do think a lot of the problems here are related to the inability of GN to recover service after something goes wrong, something I've moaned about on here numerous times over the past 4 years or so. I don't know if that is because the network is too complex, or the drivers are in the wrong places, or whatever, but once something goes wrong the rest of the day is a disaster, almost every time.

Complexity came with the opening of the Canal Tunnel, which was, er, 4 years ago.

Complexity, efficiency and resilience: it is very difficult to get all three of them at once.

 

[bramling]

Back in the days before 2018 Peterborough drivers had booked work to/from Cambridge. I don't know if they retain that now.

For resilience purposes, the key requirement is for the Horsham-Peterborough drivers to be able to get to Letchworth, where trains can reverse on the A/D lines or be dumped in the carriage sidings.

You wouldn’t be able to put a Peterborough-Horsham in Letchworth sidings, as they can’t take 12-car trains. It would be viable to reverse them in the rec roads, though.

 

[LAX54]

deleted.. different problem.

 

[bramling]

I really don't think the problem is as bad as you make out.

It *really* is.

What doesn’t help is that with most of the peak/evening GN extras missing, there is absolutely no alternative to the unreliable TL services.

Cambridge fares better because there are three separate GN/TL services, but Hitchin-Peterborough is having an absolutely torrid time of it.

Still, I have just put the departure board up for my local station, and at present everything is running and near right-time. Let’s see if they can hold out to the end of the day without a shambles. Sadly that’s now the exception rather than the norm.

 

[Magdalia]

You wouldn’t be able to put a Peterborough-Horsham in Letchworth sidings, as they can’t take 12-car trains.

Good point, I'd forgotten that.

Cambridge fares better because there are three separate GN/TL services, but Hitchin-Peterborough is having an absolutely torrid time of it.

Breathe a huge sigh of relief that Cambridge-Maidstone has never happened.

 

[MikeWM]

Complexity came with the opening of the Canal Tunnel, which was, er, 4 years ago.

Well, yes, the use of that number wasn't entirely accidental

 

[whoosh]

It’s an interesting question what diversionary knowledge Horsham-Peterborough drivers have, given that GTR has tended to silo drivers onto particular routes. I don’t believe it is now possible for them to simply divert down the Cambridge branch, for example.

Back in the days before 2018 Peterborough drivers had booked work to/from Cambridge. I don't know if they retain that now.

For resilience purposes, the key requirement is for the Horsham-Peterborough drivers to be able to get to Letchworth, where trains can reverse on the A/D lines or be dumped in the carriage sidings.

Peterborough drivers do still sign Hitchin to Cambridge, and have booked work.

Horsham drivers on the other hand, do not. Not even the shunt signal around the corner on the old Cambridge line at Hitchin, so cannot turn a train around there.
They also don't sign Hornsey Depot, or Welwyn sidings (although you can only fit 8 car trains in there).

Hitchin drivers sign to Peterborough and Cambridge, but don't sign 700s.

Kings Cross drivers sign Peterborough and Cambridge and from this year some now sign 700s, with all of them planned to do so.

Welwyn Garden City, Cambridge (both links), Hornsey Outer link and Brighton (Cambridge link) sign 700s and Hitchin to Cambridge but not Hitchin to Peterborough.
Brighton do not sign Welwyn sidings or Hornsey Depot either.


Before 2018, all GN depots signed all traction, and all routes except Cambridge and King's Lynn didn't sign Hitchin to Peterborough and they were the only ones to sign Cambridge to Kings Lynn. There were some sidings and diversionary turn around points like Cannonbury Tunnel which were added or missing between them, but there was a lot commonality.

 

[62484GlenLyon]

Breathe a huge sigh of relief that Cambridge-Maidstone has never happened.

And, thank goodness, that the Cambridge stoppers have half an hour turnrounds at both Kings Cross and Cambridge allowing the service a fair chance of holding up in times of grief.

Peterborough drivers do still sign Hitchin to Cambridge, and have booked work.

Horsham drivers on the other hand, do not. Not even the shunt signal around the corner on the old Cambridge line at Hitchin, so cannot turn a train around there.
They also don't sign Hornsey Depot, or Welwyn sidings (although you can only fit 8 car trains in there).

Hitchin drivers sign to Peterborough and Cambridge, but don't sign 700s.

Kings Cross drivers sign Peterborough and Cambridge and from this year some now sign 700s, with all of them planned to do so.

Welwyn Garden City, Cambridge (both links), Hornsey Outer link and Brighton (Cambridge link) sign 700s and Hitchin to Cambridge but not Hitchin to Peterborough.
Brighton do not sign Welwyn sidings or Hornsey Depot either.


Before 2018, all GN depots signed all traction, and all routes except Cambridge and King's Lynn didn't sign Hitchin to Peterborough and they were the only ones to sign Cambridge to Kings Lynn. There were some sidings and diversionary turn around points like Cannonbury Tunnel which were added or missing between them, but there was a lot commonality.

I feel sorry for the people in control in a situation like last night trying to match drivers' route and traction knowledge with the need to restore some semblance of a service.

Two questions about who signs what and where - do Horsham drivers sign into Kings Cross? and if Hitchin drivers don't sign 700s, what do they sign?

 

[whoosh]

Two questions about who signs what and where - do Horsham drivers sign into Kings Cross? and if Hitchin drivers don't sign 700s, what do they sign?

Yes Horsham and Brighton sign into Kings Cross.

Hitchin sign 717s and 387s.

 

[Fred26]

I genuinely don't believe the change from Peterborough - King's Cross to Peterborough - Horsham should have made that much difference.
From an insider's POV (by that I mean an employee, rather than a passenger), I think the two factors that lead to all-day disruption are the idiotic decision to section off the depots, restricting the routes and stock the drivers work; and the other problem is Three Bridges Control.
They have zero grasp of the network or the stations, but their biggest issue is they seem to have learnt nothing since they started four years ago. They're arrogant and unhelpful.
The worst thing is, control don't care about passengers. They're an inconvenience. Having worked in customer service for many years, I've never seen such disregard for the people who pay to use the service.

Fix those two problems and I think the Peterborough - Horsham would be much more reliable. It would also be an idea to run a third train per hour, but that's another story.

 

[XIX7007177]

Should be 1 an hour Peterborough to Horsham. Then one as a stopper to kings cross. Provide a bit of resilience for any problems through the core.