ECTL Customer Experience Ambassador (09-06-2021)

[43066]

Not everyone wants to work for a TOC, you're right you CAN'T say its going to be fantastic because you dont know anything about them. No one other than the handful working for them can comment here.

This mighty TOC vs OAO underdog attitude is getting really boring.

Compare this to airline, Virgin and BA being the mighty TOC and Jet2/Easyjet being the underdog... I can tell you now which ones (in my opinion) are better to work for now, and its certainly not the traditional companies.

Comparing airlines (all truly private companies) with TOCs and OAA misses the fundamental difference between them. I’m not sure why there are people on this forum who seem to think they know better than those in the industry.

I have no axe to grind here. I couldn’t care less about OA because I don’t work for one, and never plan to. Theoffer worse Ts and Cs, less pay, less security than the TOC I currently drive for! But the purpose of this forum is to advise prospective applicants who are new to the industry and might not appreciate those differences.

As has been said above, if someone is desperate to get into the industry and cannot do so any other way then perhaps it’s worth considering. But I would caution against it, and at the moment wouldn’t necessarily want to take the leap if I was coming from an already safe and established career like many railway applicants are (police force, etc.).

Hull and East Coast trains are part of First, there are plenty of opportunities if you want to move around you dont just have to stay within the same TOC to do it.
Also both Hull and. GC have been going for some time now, 20yrs for HT and around 14yrs for GC.. I'd say theyre fairly secure, we need to get away from thinking just because you're franchised you're safer.

They might be run as ringfenced parts of the wider ownership group, but that doesn’t mean they’re the same! First group TOCs haven’t ceased operations for months at a time.

The simple fact is both open access operators have both made redundancies and furloughed workers during the pandemic. TOCs have not (at least not front line safety critical workers).

Not quite right in this case, being an new company there is ZERO people already doing the job at the minute so there will be a big intake over several courses, and of course being a smaller fairly unheard of company the numbers applying are probably less than the large numbers applying for a handful of positions with say LNER.

Probably best we stop being negative about ECT and come back in a year and see how they're getting on.

I doubt numbers per place are all that much lower, for trainee driver roles especially. Most who know enough to sign up to TOC websites will also know about OA.

There’s a clear theme emerging from these threads, which is that open access TOCs are praying on the naivety of applicants. Candidates are clearly being fed a load of corporate flannel about how OA is “disruptive”, “new and fresh”, “modern” etc. with Union membership actively being discouraged etc. All any of that means is that things will be worse for employees overall. It’s simply delusional to think otherwise.

 

[DB]

I was merely expressing some frustration at the ludicrous way job adverts are written nowadays - the amount of insane flowery language thrown in to say very little is bonkers.

I'm intrigued as to what a 'digital open access train company is'. It impies some sort of simulation rather than real trains!

 

[tiptoptaff]

If you can get past the first stage with an OA you should be able to do so with a TOC. As I’ve pointed out there are more job opportunities available with a TOC, so the numbers are less stacked against you for TOC jobs.

You might consider it poor advice, but I’ve worked for two TOCs and I don’t know a single driver who had left for OA. The reasons why are obvious in the current climate. We can’t all be wrong…

I do. I know one. He lost his job before the service even started.

I must say though, I don't have an issue with OA. I think that any job on the railway is a good one if you're trying to get on

But I wouldn't go TOC to OA for the same reasons I wouldn't go to certain FOCs. There's no RPS (Hull excepted) but look what's happening with them....

Being part of FirstGroup doesn't make an OA any more or less risky than any other

 

[KJ83]

Comparing airlines (all truly private companies) with TOCs and OAA misses the fundamental difference between them. I’m not sure why there are people on this forum who seem to think they know better than those in the industry.

I have no axe to grind here. I couldn’t care less about OA because I don’t work for one, and never plan to. Theoffer worse Ts and Cs, less pay, less security than the TOC I currently drive for! But the purpose of this forum is to advise prospective applicants who are new to the industry and might not appreciate those differences.

As has been said above, if someone is desperate to get into the industry and cannot do so any other way then perhaps it’s worth considering. But I would caution against it, and at the moment wouldn’t necessarily want to take the leap if I was coming from an already safe and established career like many railway applicants are (police force, etc.).




They might be run as ringfenced parts of the wider ownership group, but that doesn’t mean they’re the same! First group TOCs haven’t ceased operations for months at a time.

The simple fact is both open access operators have both made redundancies and furloughed workers during the pandemic. TOCs have not (at least not front line safety critical workers).




I doubt numbers per place are all that much lower, for trainee driver roles especially. Most who know enough to sign up to TOC websites will also know about OA.

There’s a clear theme emerging from these threads, which is that open access TOCs are praying on the naivety of applicants. Candidates are clearly being fed a load of corporate flannel about how OA is “disruptive”, “new and fresh”, “modern” etc. with Union membership actively being discouraged etc. All any of that means is that things will be worse for employees overall. It’s simply delusional to think otherwise.

You've made it clear how you feel about OAO, why not just leave it at that? lots of assumptions though in your post.

You said you dont care about OA and you dont want to work there, thats great... means people who do actually want to work there get a job. Why not let them make their own mind up though instead of vocalising your negativity.

 

[43066]

You've made it clear how you feel about OAO, why not just leave it at that? lots of assumptions though in your post.

You said you dont care about OA and you dont want to work there, thats great... means people who do actually want to work there get a job. Why not let them make their own mind up though instead of vocalising your negativity.

It’s not intended to be “negativity” at all, but considered advice from someone who has worked in the industry for a few years. And I’m not alone.

I’ll leave it there.

I do. I know one. He lost his job before the service even started.

Ouch. Hopefully he left on good terms and managed to get back into the TOC he started at?

Out of interest what attracted him? I know the headline salaries have been towards the higher end, but exactly as you say that counts for very little when you take into account pension etc.

 

[Emilali]

You've made it clear how you feel about OAO, why not just leave it at that? lots of assumptions though in your post.

You said you dont care about OA and you dont want to work there, thats great... means people who do actually want to work there get a job. Why not let them make their own mind up though instead of vocalising your negativity.

To be fair the purpose of a forum is for people from all viewpoints to share their views.

 

[tiptoptaff]

You've made it clear how you feel about OAO, why not just leave it at that? lots of assumptions though in your post.

You said you dont care about OA and you dont want to work there, thats great... means people who do actually want to work there get a job. Why not let them make their own mind up though instead of vocalising your negativity.

Don't think it's so much vocalising negativity. It's that people need to be honest with themselves that as safe as these jobs are, they're not as safe as TOC jobs. The same can be said of course for FOCs.

 

[the sniper]

Not everyone wants to work for a TOC, you're right you CAN'T say its going to be fantastic because you dont know anything about them. No one other than the handful working for them can comment here.

This mighty TOC vs OAO underdog attitude is getting really boring.

Compare this to airline, Virgin and BA being the mighty TOC and Jet2/Easyjet being the underdog... I can tell you now which ones (in my opinion) are better to work for now, and its certainly not the traditional companies.

Come on, it's extremely naïve to think the scenarios are the same. On what grounds would someone not want to work for a TOC but instead want to work for an OA operator? Maybe ECT appeals to those who are strongly ideologically opposed to working in a unionised industry, are blind to the benefits that brings and would instead choose to accept poorer T&Cs and job security for that purpose. But I don't think there are many of them in this industry. Plenty indifferent, but that's an entirely different attitude for whom OA won't appeal either.

"This mighty TOC vs OAO underdog attitude is getting really boring" shows how badly you've misinterpreted the perspective being offered by most here. You'll struggle to find any 'company men' for TOCs. This isn't the airline industry, nobody cares about the rivalry between owning groups that come and go and largely mean nothing to anybody on the ground.

Hull and East Coast trains are part of First, there are plenty of opportunities if you want to move around you dont just have to stay within the same TOC to do it.
Also both Hull and. GC have been going for some time now, 20yrs for HT and around 14yrs for GC..

First Group permit lateral moves between their OA operations outside of management, without having to apply for jobs as if you were an external?

I'd say theyre fairly secure, we need to get away from thinking just because you're franchised you're safer.

Only if you fundamentally misunderstand how the industry works. No where is risk free, particularly now, but for a qualified Driver in particular, ECT would undoubtedly be more risky than being in a TOC. Particularly as ASLEF won't be there to bail people out if the ship goes down, again.

If you are posting this as a trainee with them, don't worry. Everything seems to suggest you'll get your key at least, that is the most important thing. For externals coming to the Driving grade, this is a good opportunity. Enjoy the ride, long may it last.

 

[Bald Rick]

On what grounds would someone not want to work for a TOC but instead want to work for an OA operator?

Of course all FOCs are open access operators. Plenty want to work for them.

 

[43066]

Of course all FOCs are open access operators. Plenty want to work for them.

They are, and people are aware of potentially higher risk than TOCs. Other factors come into it: in particular wanting more variety in routes, wanting to play around with locos for the enthusiasts, and most freight operators still have access to the pension (AIUI).

After some uncertainty when the major coal flows disappeared, I’d argue freight is currently looking a lower risk than passenger OAO. Freight levels are largely back to pre Covid and there’s a clear long term sustainability drive to move freight off road.

Clearly passenger numbers and revenue even more so is still well sub-normal, as you know better than most on here, and OAO are completely reliant on this to survive and achieve profit with no subsidy. They are also unable to easily increase passenger numbers by changing stopping patterns, serving more destinations due to the revenue abstraction clauses in their access contracts.

 

[the sniper]

Of course all FOCs are open access operators. Plenty want to work for them.

Within the context of the conversion, it seemed pretty clear we're talking about passenger OA operations. FOCs have different selling points. Though anecdotally I'd imagine that there are less going that way then there used to be. I can only speak for where I know, but far more have come the other way, from freight to passenger in recent times. I know more Guards who have moved to the freight side to get their key than qualified Drivers.

 

[tiptoptaff]

First Group permit lateral moves between their OA operations outside of management, without having to apply for jobs as if you were an external?

You can apply to "Internal Only" vacancies using the group internal group careers portal, but ultimately you're treated the same as any other driver applying. I have heard vague rumours that actually moving between FG TOCs as a driver is harder as they used to have a "no poach" agreement within the Group

 

[the sniper]

You can apply to "Internal Only" vacancies using the group internal group careers portal, but ultimately you're treated the same as any other driver applying. I have heard vague rumours that actually moving between FG TOCs as a driver is harder as they used to have a "no poach" agreement within the Group

Thanks, that's what I'd imaged.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Thanks, that's what I'd imaged.

It's only really the very senior management that's "interchangeable"

Don't know how true the no poach thing is, however. Its a frustration, I get TPE/Avanti poaching each other or even TPE poaching from ScotRail back in the day, but if a TPE driver wants to move to.Cornwall, they want to move to Cornwall. Its hardly poaching

 

[Sky2Rail.LIV]

I had my assessment day on Wednesday 28th. I found it to be a fantastic day with a real 'Buzz' from the staff from EC. After 17 years on the airlines, it was refreshing to see such enthusiasm and pride in the new business. I for one would be overjoyed to be offered the position, and have the opportunity to rejoin the railways after my amazing experience with VTWC as Dispatch.

 

[43066]

I had my assessment day on Wednesday 28th. I found it to be a fantastic day with a real 'Buzz' from the staff from EC. After 17 years on the airlines, it was refreshing to see such enthusiasm and pride in the new business. I for one would be overjoyed to be offered the position, and have the opportunity to rejoin the railways after my amazing experience with VTWC as Dispatch.

There is certainly a theme of people looking to join the railway from an airline background at the moment.

I understand that many of you are probably in difficult (even desperate) circumstances and need any job going in the circumstances. Just be aware that many of the dreadful employment practices that made your previous industry an increasingly dreadful one for many employees over the last couple of decades are currently not present on the railway. Open access are trying to bring them in…

Quite a few ex airline staff have been recruited to my TOC over the last couple of years, often to
host or TM roles, all I’ve spoken to much prefer it and wish they’d made the move sooner.

 

[Horizon22]

There is certainly a theme of people looking to join the railway from an airline background at the moment.

I understand that many of you are probably in difficult (even desperate) circumstances and need any job going in the circumstances. Just be aware that many of the dreadful employment practices that made your previous industry an increasingly dreadful one for many employees over the last couple of decades are currently not present on the railway. Open access are trying to bring them in…

Quite a few ex airline staff have been recruited to my TOC over the last couple of years, often to
host or TM roles, all I’ve spoken to much prefer it and wish they’d made the move sooner.

I wouldn't say its all that new. Over the last 5 years, I've met plenty of new train managers / guards that were ex-cabin crew.

Glad you had a good experience at your assessment centre though @Sky2Rail.LIV!

​

 

[KJ83]

I feel things are turning for the worst here... so maybe we can let this go now? its not productive and its not why we're all here.

Experience is great, and I'd always welcome it.. but sometimes some fresh blood and fresh thinking isn't a bad thing. Get the balance right and you've got something really good.

Let those who want to work for OA apply and go with it, its their choice. There is a bit of general negativity towards OA from traditional TOCs, at the end of the day not everyone wants the same things from an employer, some are more than happy with what is being offered.

 

[Kzr878]

I feel things are turning for the worst here... so maybe we can let this go now? its not productive and its not why we're all here.

Experience is great, and I'd always welcome it.. but sometimes some fresh blood and fresh thinking isn't a bad thing. Get the balance right and you've got something really good.

Let those who want to work for OA apply and go with it, its their choice. There is a bit of general negativity towards OA from traditional TOCs, at the end of the day not everyone wants the same things from an employer, some are more than happy with what is being offered.

Thank you, I appreciate your comments

 

[LowLevel]

For what it's worth despite my views on the ad, I think it sounds like a nice job. Multifunctional work is more interesting. The pay and perks might not be the best but they're not bad at all.

If they manage to build a culture where you're not looked down on by useless tossers for daring to go the extra mile and work outside your silo because it makes them look bad then good luck to them - if there is one possible good outcome of the future shake ups in the industry it will hopefully be that it gives a kick up the arse/gets rid of those who are comfortably settled in to their own mediocrity.

I'll be interested to see how it works out.

 

[KJ83]

I think the perks and pay look fairly decent, they're not here to lower T&Cs and pay like people seem to think.

I wish East Coast well! if it encourages more people back to the railway then I'm all for it!

 

[BrokenSam]

Decent way into the industry if you're local enough. Exciting new project. There is plus points for sure.

 

[Horizon22]

Can we please keep the discussion civil and on point. We have had to delete a number of posts here. Whatever your thoughts about the job description or the future of Open Access (OA) jobs (which may be better in a new thread), we should be supportive of those looking to join the railway. Thank you.

 

[New York Giant]

While I do think that the reaction was disproportionate to the comments that preceded it, I do wish anybody who signs up to work for an OA every success.
I personally would jump at the opportunity to work for an OA if it meant getting a foot in the door of the rail industry. That said, I doubt that I would switch from a TOC to OA as I agree that the perks and security outweigh the uncertainty of an OA still in its infancy.
I hope that East Coast succeeds and that the new staff never regret their decision to join.

 

[Paver2]

Has anyone had the teams interview for this, I have mine in a couple of days, looking for a bit advice type of questions asked, interview slot is for 30 minutes, any advice would be greatly appreciated

 

[Kzr878]

I'm sorry if I offended amyone but I have decided to cancel my interview due to the comments about the company, too confusing and the risk of it going under, will be staying on furlough for a bit longer and hope that the travel industry picks up,

 

[tiptoptaff]

Dont cancel. By no means is it a bad way in to the industry. But it's always good not to sugar-coat the state of open access.

 

[Gle]

I had my assessment day on Wednesday 28th. I found it to be a fantastic day with a real 'Buzz' from the staff from EC. After 17 years on the airlines, it was refreshing to see such enthusiasm and pride in the new business. I for one would be overjoyed to be offered the position, and have the opportunity to rejoin the railways after my amazing experience with VTWC as Dispatch.

Have you heard anything back yet I had one on Friday still haven’t heard anything ?

 

[KJ83]

Dont cancel. By no means is it a bad way in to the industry. But it's always good not to sugar-coat the state of open access.

This is a real shame, the comments on this thread have deterred someone who has put time and effort into the recruitment process to pull out a the last hurdle.

It's worth pointing out that in terms of open access only one company has ever failed and that was the Wrexham & Shropshire company that lasted 3years, all the others such as HT GC HX are still around.

Its comments like "But its always good not to sugar coat the state of open access" that put people off, what state exactly are they in? most do fairly well, probably better than some TOCs if they weren't government backed.

Kzr878 please don't let the attitudes/opinions of a few put you off, go for the interview... you don't have to accept a job, but it would be nice to have options surely?

I'm also going to delete this account because this is not the first time I've seen opinions effect someones decision like this when they came on here for advice and support.

 

[Kzr878]

Dont cancel. By no means is it a bad way in to the industry. But it's always good not to sugar-coat the state of open access.

I've cancelled it, i will keep am eye on it in case any future vacancies come up, thanks in anyways tho