Edinburgh Tram developments

[overthewater]

I never saw any on full routes, I did a few today. Even with the City centre i saw none on same. like you said both ends of the tram are off limits.

 

[Ceat0908]

I never saw any on full routes, I did a few today. Even with the City centre i saw none on same. like you said both ends of the tram are off limits.

It just depends on the time of day and staff availability. The company is still utilising furlough and only around a quarter are back at the moment. So at some times they are tram hopping to cover as many trams as possible.

 

[Butts]

They are still hovering around some of the stops selling / checking tickets "landside".

 

[och aye]

A video on some of the archaeology that's been uncovered during the current works (the screenshot isn't one of the workmen who worked on the trams 10 years ago ):

 

[och aye]

Drone footage of the work so far in Autumn 2020.

 

[olddriver]

Maybe a daft question but what is a logistics hub? Is it something to do with the building project itself or is it for when the trams are operational?

 

[oldman]

To do with the project. See the leaflet here

As part of our commitment to help maintain ‘business as usual’, we’ll set up a series of logistics hubs along the route to help with larger deliveries.

What is a logistics hub?

Logistics hubswillprovide ‘last mile’ supportfor large-sized deliveries and dispatch itemsmade by larger delivery vehicles. They will consist of a site cabin, daytime storage and lined or fenced-off loading areas for delivery vehicles. Our team willbe on-hand six days a week ...

 

[computerSaysNo]

Worth stating here that the council are looking much more widely at the city and how it operates. During the busiest times, Princes Street is absolutely crammed with people. Even removing all non-bus/tram/taxi traffic isn't enough to make it work. The tram and bus setup on Princes Street is the minimum required today for the two services to run. Where the tram stop reduces the road down to one lane each way, there are no bus stops. Where there are bus stops, other buses are able to drive on the tram tracks to bypass them. Making the pavements wider isn't possible without dropping one of the two, and it's going to be a lot easier to move some buses than it is to move some trams!

George Street will see a similar sort of transformation. The road capacity simply won't exist any more for the number of vehicles which currently cross the city centre.

In any case, the tram is expected to replace the bus for many journeys. Today, the tram network is still functionally an afterthought. Once the line opens to Newhaven, it will be possible and desirable to heavily change the bus network. Why would you want to run a bus which just duplicates the tram route? The plan to not only build Line 3 down to Cameron Toll and beyond, but to provide not-previously-considered links from the Bridges to the Leith Walk tram route and from the Bridges to Haymarket, means the tram will be able to provide direct links on all of the major corridors. At that point, all the bus network needs to do is fill in the gaps.

(I've quoted the whole of the above message as it's from a different group, my emphasis)
Will North Bridge and South Bridge structurally be able to support trams along them? How heavy are the trams (plus rails, plus overhead lines and masts) compared to buses?
Also remember that trams have a lot more "un-sprung" weight than buses (ie the tyres on buses absorb a lot of the smaller vibrations, whereas the metal wheels on trams don't). This can be felt if you stand on the pavement on Princes Street as a tram goes by, you can feel the footpath vibrate slightly; it doesn't do this with buses.
When was the last time maintenance was done to the structure of South Bridge?

 

[takno]

(I've quoted the whole of the above message as it's from a different group, my emphasis)
Will North Bridge and South Bridge structurally be able to support trams along them? How heavy are the trams (plus rails, plus overhead lines and masts) compared to buses?
Also remember that trams have a lot more "un-sprung" weight than buses (ie the tyres on buses absorb a lot of the smaller vibrations, whereas the metal wheels on trams don't). This can be felt if you stand on the pavement on Princes Street as a tram goes by, you can feel the footpath vibrate slightly; it doesn't do this with buses.
When was the last time maintenance was done to the structure of South Bridge?

Personally I think they'd be better off running them along Waverley bridge, up the mound and past the uni instead, but irrespective of that they are obviously doing structural integrity work on North Bridge at the moment, and South bridge is not exactly a delicate construction. I would guess it's at least been considered

 

[gsnedders]

Personally I think they'd be better off running them along Waverley bridge, up the mound and past the uni instead, but irrespective of that they are obviously doing structural integrity work on North Bridge at the moment, and South bridge is not exactly a delicate construction. I would guess it's at least been considered

Getting up the western end of Market Street from Waverley Bridge would be near the limit of what trams can manage, and probably more problematic would be the turning from Market Street onto North Bank Street which I suspect would be below minimum radius.

 

[mark-h]

Will North Bridge and South Bridge structurally be able to support trams along them? How heavy are the trams (plus rails, plus overhead lines and masts) compared to buses?

They have in the past!

See Ordnance Survey maps from 1893 & 1947 from the NLS Maps website.

North Bridge is currently undergoing a major (£22 million) refurbishment so should be in good condition when work is completed.

 

[computerSaysNo]

They have in the past!

I thought as such; I would imagine though that modern trams are both heavier and longer (did they have articulated trams in the past?).

See Ordnance Survey maps from 1893 & 1947 from the NLS Maps website.

Ah thanks for those, I shall have a look tomorrow.

North Bridge is currently undergoing a major (£22 million) refurbishment so should be in good condition when work is completed.

North Bridge isn't the one I'm concerned about...
The vast majority of South Bridge is fully built up on both sides, I don't know how/if they get access to it for inspection and maintenance, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if it hadn't had a full, proper inspection on it for many, many years.
If I remember correctly, when they put up the scaffolding onto North Bridge and actually inspected it fully up close, they found that it was in a much worse condition than they had planned for. South Bridge is over 100 years older than (the current) North Bridge (!) according to Wikipedia, so I would expect something similar if they were to fully inspect it.

 

[gsnedders]

I thought as such; I would imagine though that modern trams are both heavier and longer (did they have articulated trams in the past?).

Much, much heavier; maximum axle loadings are quoted around 12 tonnes, and the total empty weight is 56 tonnes. Historic trams were normally around 10 tonnes in total!

By way of comparison, vehicles up to 44 tonnes can ordinarily travel on UK roads, with an axle limit of 11.5 tonnes. Neither North nor South bridge are posted as having weight limits, so they will be deemed to have capacity in excess of that. I doubt the static loading of a tram is an issue, therefore. Though as already said, the dynamic loading of a steel-on-steel vehicle is different to a road vehicle.

 

[edwin_m]

By way of comparison, vehicles up to 44 tonnes can ordinarily travel on UK roads, with an axle limit of 11.5 tonnes. Neither North nor South bridge are posted as having weight limits, so they will be deemed to have capacity in excess of that. I doubt the static loading of a tram is an issue, therefore. Though as already said, the dynamic loading of a steel-on-steel vehicle is different to a road vehicle.

As with railways, the very high point load where the wheel rests on the rail is spread out by the track structure and the load on the sub-base is little different from that of a normal road vehicle. A tram of 66 tonnes is probably less weight per unit length than several 44-tonne trucks standing nose to tail, such as might happen in a traffic jam.

 

[route101]

Had a ticket check on tram to Gyle yesterday.

 

[diamond chap]

First of the tracks now laid at Ocean Terminal (image of tracks under construction).

 

[Scotrail314209]

Ticket inspectors seem to be hopping on and off at random. Last night one got on at Balgreen and then hopped off at Haymarket.

 

[OmniCity999]

First of the tracks now laid at Ocean Terminal (image of tracks under construction).View attachment 85367

Good to see the progress being made at Ocean Terminal.

I think the planners have missed a trick here, who'd have thought it?!

Build/Develop a cruise and terminal - rather than cruise ships dropping anchor and ferrying people in by tender at Newhaven, they could dock behind Ocean Terminal with Direct links to the City without the need for buses.

Add an additional stop or bay platform on Melrose Drive.

Any proposed stop wouldnt have to be used at all times - it could just be active when cruise ships are in.

As a wider view, if theres a working, fully developed port there - its more attractive to potential visitors.

(image attached)



One thing thats also troubled me with the final designs for the Ocean Terminal area is the lack of roundabout at the northern end of the tram stop? I understand the plan is to consolidate the bus stops to one side of the road, but how would they turn round? a bit of a redesign methinks. Their surely not expecting buses to come in from Ocean Way, operating a one way loop?

Final designs available on the trams to Newhaven website (image attached)

Trams final indicative designs.




I think the next best option for the Trams is to build the link down Roseburn to Granton and onto Newhaven to link it all up.

After that i'd say the next link would be down to the Royal Infirmary and maybe through to Fort Kinnaird or Sherrifhall?

If only they were able to take over the South Sub, that could create some really good links - but i understand its regularly used and pretty handy? Off topic but maybe some sort of heavy rail based metro?

Apologies if some of the ideas shared are a bit "pie in the sky" ...

Then again, i also think having a set of points before and after every stop is a good idea, for flexibility - but i understand coasts totally destroy this idea.

 

[Gostav]

View attachment 85384

One thing thats also troubled me with the final designs for the Ocean Terminal area is the lack of roundabout at the northern end of the tram stop? I understand the plan is to consolidate the bus stops to one side of the road, but how would they turn round? a bit of a redesign methinks. Their surely not expecting buses to come in from Ocean Way, operating a one way loop?

Looks like a few old tracks still remain on the dock, just image a boat-tram service in future.

 

[gsnedders]

Build/Develop a cruise and terminal - rather than cruise ships dropping anchor and ferrying people in by tender at Newhaven, they could dock behind Ocean Terminal with Direct links to the City without the need for buses.

How much would it cost to build a terminal, dredge out appropriate channels, etc.? What does the business case look like for spending money on that? Especially when it disproportionately affects those already well-off, there's many reasons why it's unlikely to be a priority.

 

[kylemore]

Good to see the progress being made at Ocean Terminal.

I think the planners have missed a trick here, who'd have thought it?!

Build/Develop a cruise and terminal - rather than cruise ships dropping anchor and ferrying people in by tender at Newhaven, they could dock behind Ocean Terminal with Direct links to the City without the need for buses.

Most modern cruise ships are too big to fit through the lock into Leith Docks.

 

[route101]

Whats the deal with the Cruise Terminal at the moment? 4

 

[AngusH]

It's still there isn't it?

I'm sure I saw it last time I was down at Ocean Terminal. Although empty that day, it looked in working order.

Before the current virus outbreak of course.

 

[route101]

It's still there isn't it?

I'm sure I saw it last time I was down at Ocean Terminal. Although empty that day, it looked in working order.

Before the current virus outbreak of course.

Yes, passed it other day on 16, i wonder if they had customs and immigration there?

First time down Leith Walk in ages, surprised with tram progress.5

 

[Clip]

Not sure the people who live round there would like a big cruise ship berthed there belching out fumes whilst it rocks and then leaves and that's if it gets a shore supply

 

[OmniCity999]

Not sure the people who live round there would like a big cruise ship berthed there belching out fumes whilst it rocks and then leaves and that's if it gets a shore supply

whether they like it or not, they chose to purchase property next to an operational port, which has been there since at least 1820.

 

[Sam32]

A short extension to Granton seems like the next best step.

I think the next best option for the Trams is to build the link down Roseburn to Granton and onto Newhaven to link it all up.

It's difficult to think how they make this link without removing the pedestrian / cycle path which seems like a non starter considering how well used and important it is as part of the whole Edinburgh active travel network.

After that i'd say the next link would be down to the Royal Infirmary and maybe through to Fort Kinnaird or Sherrifhall?

If only they were able to take over the South Sub, that could create some really good links - but i understand its regularly used and pretty handy? Off topic but maybe some sort of heavy rail based metro?

The southern Tram should run all the way to Musselburgh (East Lothian willing).

I don't really see a South Suburban tram being that useful most of the stops are already really well served by buses directly into the city a metro loop on the other hand...

 

[takno]

I don't really see a South Suburban tram being that useful most of the stops are already really well served by buses directly into the city a metro loop on the other hand...

I tend to agree. I can't remember where the stops are proposed to be, but the most likely situation for me would be an extra 5 minutes walk uphill to get to a tram compared with the bus, and then a less regular service to more limited locations. I'm struggling to really see the upsides if you're closer in than Cammy Toll

 

[DDB]

I think I remember a post on here about the practice somewhere in mainland europe with integrated public transport that when the required number of bus services down a particular corridor increased the serices would be replaced with a new tram route.

If you look at a bus map of Edinburgh (pre COVID and before the current tram works causing diversion) there was a big stripe of services down Leith walk which are in the process of being replaced by trams.

The next big stripe looks like over south bridge and beyond and therfore following this logic would be the next route. I don't know which route you would follow once you get past the core but I see the logic of really good links to the hospital but after that you would persumably want to end up at a sutible large park and ride site.

 

[takno]

I think I remember a post on here about the practice somewhere in mainland europe with integrated public transport that when the required number of bus services down a particular corridor increased the serices would be replaced with a new tram route.

If you look at a bus map of Edinburgh (pre COVID and before the current tram works causing diversion) there was a big stripe of services down Leith walk which are in the process of being replaced by trams.

The next big stripe looks like over south bridge and beyond and therfore following this logic would be the next route. I don't know which route you would follow once you get past the core but I see the logic of really good links to the hospital but after that you would persumably want to end up at a sutible large park and ride site.

So on the basis that there's a particular density of line on a map, you reward people far from town for their custom on the buses by taking them stand in the cold and change onto a tram halfway through the journey, make everybody closer to town walk further to a tram stop, and basically redesign the working transport system for the convenience of drivers going to a park and ride? Seems off to me