Elizabeth Line Post-Opening Fare anomalies on TfL only journey charged in NR fare scale

[hkstudent]

When doing some oyster single-fare exercise, particularly on avoiding zone 1 journeys, there is quite a bit of issue from Abbey Wood Station.

Firstly would be the West Silvertown - King George V, and Island Garden - Heron Quay fares. The default fare is a NR-TfL Zone 3-4 fare, which is okay. But surprisingly, there is no TfL only fare as an alternative, despite it being easily enforceable given there is a Woolwich - Woolwich Arsenal or Canary Wharf EL - Canary Wharf DLR OSI. (Edit: TfL only fare for avoid zone 1 is far cheaper than NR scale, which EL+DLR travel is a reasonable route)

Secondly would be the longer journey be cheaper than shorter journey issue, fares from Abbey Wood to Faringdon and St Pancras is charged £3.40 off-peak even when travelling on a Thameslink service. But the shorter journey to London Bridge - City Thameslink would be charged a £3.70 off-peak fare instead.

 

[JonathanH]

there is quite a bit of issue from Abbey Wood Station

Is it actually an issue?

It is just a feature of the pricing and there being London Underground, National Rail and Mixed-mode fare scales.

The whole point of Oyster and Contactless is that a specific fare is advertised and charged according to what is in the single-fare finder.

Secondly would be the longer journey be cheaper than shorter journey issue, fares from Abbey Wood to Faringdon and St Pancras is charged £3.40 off-peak even when travelling on a Thameslink service. But the shorter journey to London Bridge - City Thameslink would be charged a £3.70 off-peak fare instead.

The fare to St Pancras seems a little benevolent but presumably they think most people will go to St Pancras via the Elizabeth Line and to City Thameslink using Thameslink trains.

 

[Starmill]

The fare to St Pancras seems a little benevolent but presumably they think most people will go to St Pancras via the Elizabeth Line and to City Thameslink using Thameslink trains.

Is it? It's exactly the same fare from say Norwood Junction. I think you've got some very unusual ideas about fares if you interpret this as "benevolent". It's slightly more than if you came from most London Underground stations in Zone 4.

 

[JonathanH]

Is it? It's exactly the same fare from say Norwood Junction. I think you've got some very unusual ideas about fares if you interpret this as "benevolent". It's slightly more than if you came from most London Underground stations in Zone 4.

The OP has written £3.40 instead of £3.10 for St Pancras and Farringdon and £3.70 instead of £3.40 for City Thameslink and London Bridge.

 

[hkstudent]

Is it actually an issue?

It is just a feature of the pricing and there being London Underground, National Rail and Mixed-mode fare scales.

The whole point of Oyster and Contactless is that a specific fare is advertised and charged according to what is in the single-fare finder.


The fare to St Pancras seems a little benevolent but presumably they think most people will go to St Pancras via the Elizabeth Line and to City Thameslink using Thameslink trains.

TfL has broadly advertised their off-peak fare of £1.70, which they cannot deliver in these fare pairs.
It's misinformation in advertisement.

 

[cslusarc]

Are there any Pink Oyster route validators at Abbey Wood?

 

[MikeWh]

Are there any Pink Oyster route validators at Abbey Wood?

No there aren't.

 

[hkstudent]

Are there any Pink Oyster route validators at Abbey Wood?

There's not even a yellow platform validators at Interchange footbridge at Abbey Wood for NR-TfL interchanges

 

[iphone76]

There's not even a yellow platform validators at Interchange footbridge at Abbey Wood for NR-TfL interchanges

This has been noted by the company and some will be installed at Abbey Wood and Farringdon as soon as they can.

 

[MikeWh]

This has been noted by the company and some will be installed at Abbey Wood and Farringdon as soon as they can.

They already have some at Farringdon between the wb Underground and sb Thameslink platforms, unless they were got rid of. I'm not convinced that the government will like the potential revenue loss at Abbey Wood.

 

[iphone76]

They already have some at Farringdon between the wb Underground and sb Thameslink platforms, unless they were got rid of. I'm not convinced that the government will like the potential revenue loss at Abbey Wood.

Sorry. I mean new validators at Abbey Wood and additional validators at Farringdon. It was noted that people were having issues on the first day so it's been raised as something to resolve.

 

[MikeWh]

I still don't think platform validators are going in anywhere at Abbey Wood. Too much risk of short faring.

 

[hkstudent]

I still don't think platform validators are going in anywhere at Abbey Wood. Too much risk of short faring.

Yeah, but that depends on whether the interchange flow will make main course gateline overcrowding.
Not in short term, but maybe in a decade time.

 

[Ralph Ayres]

Yeah, but that depends on whether the interchange flow will make main course gateline overcrowding.
Not in short term, but maybe in a decade time.

In a decade time we should surely have a single pricing system that no longer means people have to split the journey in two for the best fare because different organisations and political ideologies define the rules. On the other hand...

 

[miklcct]

In a decade time we should surely have a single pricing system that no longer means people have to split the journey in two for the best fare because different organisations and political ideologies define the rules.

Do you mean that London Underground will become part of Great British Rail?

 

[MikeWh]

Do you mean that London Underground will become part of Great British Rail?

Not necessarily. Just that fares for any rail mode within zones 1-9 will be the same. [excepting airport fares of course]

 

[JonathanH]

In a decade time we should surely have a single pricing system that no longer means people have to split the journey in two for the best fare because different organisations and political ideologies define the rules. On the other hand...

There is absolutely no chance of that because the principles for fares within London do not extend to the fares outside London. To make any change would cost the DfT a small fortune.

We may well have a single pricing system in London and the South East but splitting will be worthwhile (and difficult) in many places.

This story was in the Telegraph this week.

'Confusing' Crossrail tickets mean passengers can save £10 by getting off and on again

Using Transport for London's ticketing system will cost more

Commuters using the new Elizabeth Line in London could make a saving by getting off and on again at certain stations.

The “confusing” ticketing system – which switches between Transport for London and GWR fares – means completing a journey in one go will cost substantially more.

A peak time journey from Reading to Canary Wharf would cost £29.20 if you tapped in and out using a contactless payment or oyster card, according to Transport for London.

However, a journey from Reading to Slough only costs £5.90 while Slough to Canary Wharf cost £12.50 also at peak times. This means a passenger who boarded at Reading would save £10.80 by getting off the train Slough, tapping out and in the gates and then boarding the next train to Canary Wharf.

Similarly, breaking a trip between Reading to Liverpool Street at West Ealing would save a commuter £7.20.

Norman Baker from Campaign for Better Transport, a campaign group, said: "This is yet another example of how complicated, confusing and increasingly out of date the ticketing system is."

Mr Baker, a former transport minister, added that "root and branch reform" was needed of the whole rail fares system to tackle such anomalies and "ensure passengers were getting value for money".

The Elizabeth Line, which opens to passengers today, is more than three years late and almost £4bn over budget. The line will run more than 62 miles through central London from Shenfield and Abbey Wood in the east to Reading and Heathrow Airport in the west.

Services will be limited to six days a week and the new Bond Street station will remain closed. Around 300 people queued outside Paddington Station this morning ahead of the service's opening at 6.30am.

A TfL spokesman said: "Fares between Reading and Slough are set by GWR and remain the same as those which operated under TfL Rail. As with all rail journeys across the UK, there will be occasions where customers may benefit from split-ticketing or pay as you go fares through exiting and re-entering stations with their contactless card.

"Our pay as you go system calculates the most appropriate fare for your journey, including whether any daily or weekly cap would apply. Pay as you go with contactless can be used across the whole of the new Elizabeth Line.”

It is a bit ironic that Contactless is the 'root and branch' reform of the fares system that Norman Baker appears to be calling for.

I can't see the mixed-mode premium within London being given up either.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Thanks for posting the Daily Telegraph article. I think this story is going to grow and grow in the media, and suspect that DfT have no mitigation plan for the further anomalies that will be introduced when Contactless is rolled out further across the Southeast.

As with all rail journeys across the UK, there will be occasions where customers may benefit from split-ticketing or pay as you go fares through exiting and re-entering stations with their contactless card.

Could this be the first time TfL have officially acknowledged that contactless does not necessarily give you the best price?

 

[Horizon22]

I still don't think platform validators are going in anywhere at Abbey Wood. Too much risk of short faring.

What's the resolution then - people tapping out and back in again then in perpetuity?

Whilst most will be transferring from Dartford or within (given SE's network), those from further afield on Thameslink will always have issues and the new overbridge is a little pointless.

 

[MikeWh]

Could this be the first time TfL have officially acknowledged that contactless does not necessarily give you the best price?

Possibly. However, it's highly likely that the paper ticket prices for splitting at Slough may well offer some savings because the fare from Reading is priced based on the frequent non-stop trains. It's also not new, splitting opportunities have existed at East Croydon ever since the Gatwick extension started.

What's the resolution then - people tapping out and back in again then in perpetuity?

Potentially. Slade Green is ungated and 3 stops away from Abbey Wood (one on Thameslink). It would be easy for people to get on there and touch in on the bridges at Abbey Wood if they had validators. That's just one example, there are many others in that area. I think Dartford is the only reasonably secure station with no ungated access (except when they're left open).

 

[Horizon22]

Possibly. However, it's highly likely that the paper ticket prices for splitting at Slough may well offer some savings because the fare from Reading is priced based on the frequent non-stop trains. It's also not new, splitting opportunities have existed at East Croydon ever since the Gatwick extension started.

Potentially. Slade Green is ungated and 3 stops away from Abbey Wood (one on Thameslink). It would be easy for people to get on there and touch in on the bridges at Abbey Wood if they had validators. That's just one example, there are many others in that area. I think Dartford is the only reasonably secure station with no ungated access (except when they're left open).

I agree that part of the network is particularly prone to fare evasion, but it does seem like a real shame that Southeastern's inability to manage that (albeit in many case dependent on proper station investment at the hands of the DfT) will cause an issue for so many passengers. All Elizabeth Line stations are gated and staffed, so you'd hope that could be resolved eventually, although it may add an element of anti-social behaviour.

 

[bicbasher]

Stations from Brockley to West Croydon on the ELL to Woolwich and Abbey Wood are charged at NR 1-4/5 as the default fare with no pink reader option at Whitechapel.

 

[MikeWh]

Stations from Brockley to West Croydon on the ELL to Woolwich and Abbey Wood are charged at NR 1-4/5 as the default fare with no pink reader option at Whitechapel.

Which is particularly annoying given that Peckham Rye etc does have a Whitechapel option. I can kind of see the point for Abbey Wood, but Woolwich EL is not the same as Woolwich Arsenal

 

[bicbasher]

Erith (two stops down from Abbey Wood) to Tottenham Court Road, a whopping £6 single off-peak. Belvedere to Tottenham Court Road, £5.40 off-peak. Abbey Wood to Tottenham Court Road. A reasonable £3.10 single.

 

[MikeWh]

Erith (two stops down from Abbey Wood) to Tottenham Court Road, a whopping £6 single off-peak. Belvedere to Tottenham Court Road, £5.40 off-peak. Abbey Wood to Tottenham Court Road. A reasonable £3.10 single.

That's the mixed mode premium when using zone 1.

 

[bicbasher]

That's the mixed mode premium when using zone 1.

I'm surprised that they're not NR fares considering the same has been done from Southeastern stations to London Overground stations on the ELL.

 

[MikeWh]

I'm surprised that they're not NR fares considering the same has been done from Southeastern stations to London Overground stations on the ELL.

Notwithstanding errors like Forest Hill to Woolwich, the line between Paddington and Abbey Wood is classed as an Underground line for fares purposes. This is different to Overground and Elizabeth line to Brentwood and West Drayton. The confusion in the middle occurs because Farringdon to Moorgate has to retain National Rail fares for historical reasons (either York Road curve or Thameslink, or both). And Moorgate of course now equals Liverpool Street. This is what happens when you try to avoid revenue loss on a brand new line versus an old one.