Elizabeth line ticketing

[hkstudent]

One interesting thing to note is: mobile app NR journey planner struggles to define fares from Southeastern land via Elizabeth Line to Paddington, then change to GWR + Elizabeth Line combo to Buckinghamshire or Berkshire.
For example like Dartford - Twyford / Iver / Reading or any destinations further west, even to Bristol Parkway or Cardiff Central.

 

[JonathanH]

One interesting thing to note is: NR journey planner struggles to define fares from Southeastern land via Elizabeth Line to Paddington, then change to GWR + Elizabeth Line combo to Buckinghamshire or Berkshire.
For example like Dartford - Twyford / Iver / Reading or any destinations further west, even to Bristol Parkway or Cardiff Central.

Has Abbey Wood been added to the list of stations within the Maltese cross list?

 

[hkstudent]

Has Abbey Wood been added to the list of stations within the Maltese cross list?

No it has not. Can see Battersea Power and Woolwich Arsenal DLR, but not any EZL stations

 

[Watershed]

If Elizabeth core is defined as LU for fare purposes, then I doubt ORCATS will allocate any fare revenue to that section.

I doubt there will be many "old style" tickets sold for which the EL will feature amongst the fastest itineraries. Hence there will not be a lot of revenue for ORCATS to distribute onto the Core anyway.

But the EL core is not defined as anything special for fare purposes. It has a National Rail service and so, in theory, is no different from any other piece of the National Rail network.

What has happened is that TfL have failed to set the normal paper fares to/from Crossrail Core stations, have unilaterally declared they will refuse to accept valid NR tickets, and have decided they will charge LU scale fares for Oyster/contactless PAYG.

The Routeing Guide has been slightly altered but in most cases it is not necessary to refer to this to determine validity on the EL core, as it is either the shortest route or a direct train.

London terminals tickets from destinations east of Liverpool Street are valid between Stratford and Liverpool Street on the central line so should be valid on the Elizabeth line also.

The Central line interavailability has been extended to the Elizabeth Line. However, for ordinary rail tickets this is not necessary as again, the EL is a National Rail service and so tickets to London Terminals are valid on it anyway. It's just that TfL pretend they aren't.

 

[JonathanH]

What has happened is that TfL have unilaterally declared they will refuse to accept valid NR tickets, and that they will charge LU scale fares for Oyster/contactless.

Is there some evidence that TfL have decided the fares and validity without the agreement of RDG / DfT?

 

[alistairlees]

I doubt there will be many "old style" tickets sold for which the EL will feature amongst the fastest itineraries. Hence there will not be a lot of revenue for ORCATS to distribute onto the Core anyway.

But the EL core is not defined as anything special for fare purposes. It has a National Rail service and so, in theory, is no different from any other piece of the National Rail network.

What has happened is that TfL have failed to set the normal paper fares to/from Crossrail Core stations, have unilaterally declared they will refuse to accept valid NR tickets, and have decided they will charge LU scale fares for Oyster/contactless PAYG.

The Routeing Guide has been slightly altered but in most cases it is not necessary to refer to this to determine validity on the EL core, as it is either the shortest route or a direct train.


The Central line interavailability has been extended to the Elizabeth Line. However, for ordinary rail tickets this is not necessary as again, the EL is a National Rail service and so tickets to London Terminals are valid on it anyway. It's just that TfL pretend they aren't.

I agree that it would be nice if it had been agreed that the Elizabeth line was a rail line and not a tube line. But it hasn’t; it’s been agreed to be a tube line.

The data implications / requirements of that were not properly understood by those making the decisions, so those who provide journey planning and fares software are now catching up by applying hacks or asking for data changes.

A most unsatisfactory position.

But it is as it is.

Is there some evidence that TfL have decided the fares and validity without the agreement of RDG / DfT?

No because that isn’t what happened.

 

[Watershed]

Is there some evidence that TfL have decided the fares and validity without the agreement of RDG / DfT?

No, and I'm not suggesting that this is the case. But TfL have unilaterally declared they're not going to abide by the NRCoT. Which probably amounts to the same.

I agree that it would be nice if it had been agreed that the Elizabeth line was a rail line and not a tube line. But it hasn’t; it’s been agreed to be a tube line.

The data implications / requirements of that were not properly understood by those making the decisions, so those who provide journey planning and fares software are now catching up by applying hacks or asking for data changes.

A most unsatisfactory position.

But it is as it is.

TfL, RDG and TfL have agreed that, but that is not the position under the NRCoT. Unless and until the NRCoT are changed in this respect, TfL will be acting unlawfully in charging extra and denying travel.

 

[Haywain]

London terminals tickets from destinations east of Liverpool Street are valid between Stratford and Liverpool Street on the central line so should be valid on the Elizabeth line also.

Those tickets will be valid on the Elizabeth line when that section opens.

 

[JonathanH]

Those tickets will be valid on the Elizabeth line when that section opens.

Will they be valid for exit at Whitechapel? (Indeed, are they already by virtue of interavailabilty between Stratford and Liverpool Street or is that only on the Central Line)?

 

[Haywain]

Will they be valid for exit at Whitechapel? (Indeed, are they already by virtue of interavailabilty between Stratford and Liverpool Street or is that only on the Central Line)?

No.

 

[cactustwirly]

Will they be valid for exit at Whitechapel? (Indeed, are they already by virtue of interavailabilty between Stratford and Liverpool Street or is that only on the Central Line)?

Yes in theory, unless the restriction code on those tickets doesn't allow break of journey.

 

[Bread & cheese]

Has Abbey Wood been added to the list of stations within the Maltese cross list?

The public version of the National Rail website hasn't yet been updated, but the internal version has had Abbey Wood and Woolwich (Elizabeth line) added.

Travel 'via' London
Ticket prices shown in your TIS or the Fares Finder for journeys where permitted routes include travel via London and marked with the symbol †, include the cost of transfer across London on Thameslink services, or by London Underground, Elizabeth line or Docklands Light Railway between any two of the following Underground / Elizabeth line / DLR stations appropriate to the route of the through journey:

Abbey Wood	Aldgate	Amersham	Baker Street
Balham	Bank	Barking	Battersea Power Station
Blackfriars	Blackhorse Road	Brixton	Canada Water
Cannon Street	Charing Cross	Ealing Broadway (LU)	Edgware Road
Elephant & Castle	Embankment	Euston	Euston Square
Farringdon	Finsbury Park	Greenwich (DLR)	Highbury & Islington
Kensington Olympia	Kentish Town	Kings Cross/St Pancras	Lancaster Gate
Lewisham (DLR)	Limehouse	Liverpool Street	London Bridge
Marylebone	Moorgate	Old Street	Paddington
Queens Park	Richmond	Seven Sisters	Shadwell
Shepherds Bush	Southwark	Stratford	Stratford International (DLR)
Tottenham Hale	Tower Hill	Upminster	Vauxhall
Victoria	Walthamstow Central	Waterloo	West Brompton
West Ham	West Hampstead	Whitechapel	Wimbledon
Woolwich Arsenal	Woolwich (Elizabeth line)

 

[swt_passenger]

Has Abbey Wood been added to the list of stations within the Maltese cross list?

It was reported by @kieron last week as added to the cross London list, details are in the routeing guide changes thread here:

National Routeing Guide update

Given that I was in London on Bank Holiday Monday at 21:30 and needed to get home to Nuneaton, what cheaper choice did I have? I have no idea, but part of life is planning around what you want to do and sometimes accepting that your choices have an added cost.

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Haywain]

Yes in theory, unless the restriction code on those tickets doesn't allow break of journey.

The staff brief states that BoJ at Whitechapel will not be permitted.

 

[miklcct]

I agree that it would be nice if it had been agreed that the Elizabeth line was a rail line and not a tube line. But it hasn’t; it’s been agreed to be a tube line.

The data implications / requirements of that were not properly understood by those making the decisions, so those who provide journey planning and fares software are now catching up by applying hacks or asking for data changes.

A most unsatisfactory position.

But it is as it is.


No because that isn’t what happened.

No, and I'm not suggesting that this is the case. But TfL have unilaterally declared they're not going to abide by the NRCoT. Which probably amounts to the same.


TfL, RDG and TfL have agreed that, but that is not the position under the NRCoT. Unless and until the NRCoT are changed in this respect, TfL will be acting unlawfully in charging extra and denying travel.

My head is exploding.

In short - can I rely on the NRCoT, Routeing Guide and the usual National Rail rules when travelling on the Elizabeth line? If not, why do these stations appear in the National Rail journey planners are retail systems? (In contrast to Bakerloo line where the stations don't appear at all in any National Rail databases or systems so there isn't a single doubt it isn't part of the National Rail except the portion shared with the Overground)

 

[cactustwirly]

The staff brief states that BoJ at Whitechapel will not be permitted.

The staff brief doesn't overrule the NRCoT..

 

[hkstudent]

The staff brief doesn't overrule the NRCoT..

The staff at Whitechapel are mostly LU staff, which has limited knowledge in NRCOT.

Though I don't think a customer complaint will generate any fruitful results though. It may likely need to go through political way like through a Assembly Member or a MP.

Will they be valid for exit at Whitechapel? (Indeed, are they already by virtue of interavailabilty between Stratford and Liverpool Street or is that only on the Central Line)?

Actually, I doubt the ticket acceptance on Elizabeth Line from Stratford to Liverpool Street is by virtue if inter-availability.

Since Crossrail has taken up the Greater Anglia local service, that would be operated as a NR service, thus the London Terminal ticket is accepted on TfL Rail - Elizabeth Line by it's own right.

Liverpool Street is undeniably a London Terminal for passengers from Great Eastern Mainline. If not, passengers at Maryland - Brentwood will get no London Terminal to get to on a direct train, with a London Season ticket.

 

[miklcct]

Though I don't think a customer complaint will generate any fruitful results though. It may likely need to go through political way like through a Assembly Member or a MP.

How about using the legal system? For example, a small claims court when the LU staff wrongly denies travel?

 

[freddie1729]

How come I can't buy a ticket on the Elizabeth line online?

 

[Alex365Dash]

How come I can't buy a ticket on the Elizabeth line online?

Probably because there are no direct fares defined in the fares database and Trainline haven’t given the software the foresight to know a Woolwich (Elizabeth line) to London Underground Zones 3-4 ticket is valid on the Elizabeth line. (Yes, that’s the ticket you’d buy for this journey!)

That said, given it can only be fulfilled to Ticket on Departure, there’s not much point to buying online rather than just buying at the station. (Or even better if your card’s contactless, using your contactless card instead!)

 

[Haywain]

How come I can't buy a ticket on the Elizabeth line online?

View attachment 115297

Because it’s considered an underground line with underground fares.

 

[Paul Kelly]

The data implications / requirements of that were not properly understood by those making the decisions, so those who provide journey planning and fares software are now catching up by applying hacks or asking for data changes.

Interesting that you say that; I thought the fares proposal seemed quite well thought-through and internally consistent. I haven't looked in huge depth as it's not my job any more but it seemed to be the key thing would be to define all the central XR stations as interavailable LU stations, and then most stuff should just work - assuming the journey planner had proper support for interavailable routes in the first place, which I guess not all of them do.

Although thinking about it more, it's not really interavailable, it's intraavailable - since an Abbey Wood to London Terminals fare wouldn't be valid to use the Elizabeth Line to Liverpool Street. I guess then the journey planner would need a separate mode to disallow normal NR fares on the route. So, not totally straightforward - but not a disaster either - it all depends on how well the journey planner supported LU-on-NR fares in the first place.

 

[island]

Are there any standalone validators at Abbey Wood for passengers transferring from Southeastern/Thameslink on paper tickets to Elizabeth line on Oyster/contactless?

 

[Kite159]

Are there any standalone validators at Abbey Wood for passengers transferring from Southeastern/Thameslink on paper tickets to Elizabeth line on Oyster/contactless?

Or for passengers to arrive from elsewhere with no tickets to touch in to reduce the fare they pay which will probably be the main use.

 

[greyman42]

The public version of the National Rail website hasn't yet been updated, but the internal version has had Abbey Wood and Woolwich (Elizabeth line) added.

Travel 'via' London
Ticket prices shown in your TIS or the Fares Finder for journeys where permitted routes include travel via London and marked with the symbol †, include the cost of transfer across London on Thameslink services, or by London Underground, Elizabeth line or Docklands Light Railway between any two of the following Underground / Elizabeth line / DLR stations appropriate to the route of the through journey:

Abbey Wood	Aldgate	Amersham	Baker Street
Balham	Bank	Barking	Battersea Power Station
Blackfriars	Blackhorse Road	Brixton	Canada Water
Cannon Street	Charing Cross	Ealing Broadway (LU)	Edgware Road
Elephant & Castle	Embankment	Euston	Euston Square
Farringdon	Finsbury Park	Greenwich (DLR)	Highbury & Islington
Kensington Olympia	Kentish Town	Kings Cross/St Pancras	Lancaster Gate
Lewisham (DLR)	Limehouse	Liverpool Street	London Bridge
Marylebone	Moorgate	Old Street	Paddington
Queens Park	Richmond	Seven Sisters	Shadwell
Shepherds Bush	Southwark	Stratford	Stratford International (DLR)
Tottenham Hale	Tower Hill	Upminster	Vauxhall
Victoria	Walthamstow Central	Waterloo	West Brompton
West Ham	West Hampstead	Whitechapel	Wimbledon
Woolwich Arsenal	Woolwich (Elizabeth line)

I would of expected to see Canary Wharf on the list?

 

[MikeWh]

Are there any standalone validators at Abbey Wood for passengers transferring from Southeastern/Thameslink on paper tickets to Elizabeth line on Oyster/contactless?

No. I suspect the reason @Kite159 gave is the reason.

 

[hkstudent]

I would of expected to see Canary Wharf on the list?

Canary Wharf EL / DLR doesn't interact with other National Rail services.
Though, there's a magnetic ticket OSI at Canary Wharf EL and LU

 

[greyman42]

Canary Wharf EL / DLR doesn't interact with other National Rail services.
Though, there's a magnetic ticket OSI at Canary Wharf EL and LU

OK thanks for the explanation.

 

[Bread & cheese]

It seems that London Terminals tickets without a U-zone extra are no longer offered on the line from Kent to Liverpool Street. How can this be right?

Regarding the use of London Terminals tickets on the Elizabeth line, the internal version of the National Rail website now states (my highlighting in the second paragraph):

Tickets with Origin/Destination London Terminals​

Fares for travel to or from ‘London Terminals’ are shown in Journey Planners and your Ticket Issuing Systems.

They are valid to or from any of the National Rail stations shown below served by a route or routes permitted for the relevant journey in the Routing Guide. They do not include travel between these stations on London Underground, Elizabeth line, Docklands Light Railway or London Buses services.

(Note: to forbid travel between Abbey Wood and Liverpool Street this should say something like "travel is not permitted on the central section of the Elizabeth line except on the interavailable route between Stratford and Liverpool Street")

 

[Mainline421]

Because it’s considered an underground line with underground fares.

That's a little misleading, Elizabeth Line is toc like any other. As tickets issued at the new stations TVMs make abundantly clear...

(Image shows ticket purchased from a new Elizabeth Line station on Tuesday, the ticket is printed on standard orange CCST stock with the text National Rail repeated )
They also appear to have ToD functionality incidentally. The fact TfL may not want long distance passengers exiting at certain stations doesn't change that, and hasn't been implemented at all correctly if that is their intention. At any rate it seems like allowing travel to Liverpool Street via Abbey Wood etc. would be useful for a small minority of passengers and probably wouldn't have a negative impact on revenue overall.