EMR Class 170 updates

[LowLevel]

Would this not carry forwards from Central Trains days?

No, they're considered to be new traction. In any case the old agreement may not be satisfactory to one or both parties.

 

[cnjb8]

Unless it’s Liverpool to Norwich I’m guessing as EMR’s regional routes other than that don’t run more than 3/4 carriages. So it’ll be highly unlikely unless it’s for depot movements.

Probably not given platforms on most Regional lines aren't long enough for 5 car trains I believe.

Very much doubt it as except going up to Liverpool or Worksop the rest of the regional network is mostly 2 car services. There is a service from Derby to Nottingham early in the morning which I think is normally 3 units together which then splits in Nottingham.

Derby to Crewe I don't think you can run more than a 4 car and it's probably the same with the Matlock Branch.

170s currently will not be operated in multiple whilst a manning agreement is written up and formalised.

Thought so, thank you

 

[Speedbird96]

An artist impression of what the Class 170s will look like after refurbishment, the vinyl poster applied on 170417. Based on the image, the 170s looks like they will be gaining FISA Lean seats as already found on Greater Anglia's Stadler fleet and WMR's Class 196s.

 

[OTRail]

An artist impression of what the Class 170s will look like after refurbishment, the vinyl poster applied on 170417. Based on the image, the 170s looks like they will be gaining FISA Lean seats as already found on Greater Anglia's Stadler fleet and WMR's Class 196s.

The cream head rests remind me of the TPE 185 refurbishment

 

[Doomotron]

An artist impression of what the Class 170s will look like after refurbishment, the vinyl poster applied on 170417. Based on the image, the 170s looks like they will be gaining FISA Lean seats as already found on Greater Anglia's Stadler fleet and WMR's Class 196s.

What an excellent colour scheme.

How are the FISA Leans compared to the Chapmans (?) in the 170s?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wow, that looks fancy. Are the 360s getting the same treatment, I wonder?

FISA LEANs are in comfort terms almost identical to the Grammer E3000 "Desiro seat", in my view, though the back is a bit thicker so a bit less legroom unless your knees fit in the "niche". More than acceptable for a regional stopping service.

 

[Domh245]

They seem to be well received over in Anglia on the flirts, but if they're putting them in at the same sort of seat pitch as used on the XC 170s*, it'll mean you'll actually be able to fit your legs in there because of the niche in the back. I personally find there to be no leg room on those units, so these may be almost tolerable


*it'd seem they are - XC 3 car units notionally seat 191 standard + 9 first, EMR's 3 car have got a claimed capacity of 214 all standard - so they'll somehow manage to cram in even more seats - an all standard XC unit should seat 205 by my reckoning

 

[NoMorePacers]

I personally don't see a problem with the current Chapman seating in the 170s (Hull-Scarborough-Sheffield on them was done fairly comfortably and I'd assume the EMR units would operate similar services) however them being seemingly willing to invest in a comprehensive enough interior refurbishment like the one demonstrated in the poster does appear to be a positive sign nonetheless.

 

[43055]

An artist impression of what the Class 170s will look like after refurbishment, the vinyl poster applied on 170417. Based on the image, the 170s looks like they will be gaining FISA Lean seats as already found on Greater Anglia's Stadler fleet and WMR's Class 196s.

ooooh very nice.

Wow, that looks fancy. Are the 360s getting the same treatment, I wonder?

FISA LEANs are in comfort terms almost identical to the Grammer E3000 "Desiro seat", in my view, though the back is a bit thicker so a bit less legroom unless your knees fit in the "niche". More than acceptable for a regional stopping service.

I would imagine it is likely that the 360's will be very similar seeing they will have to rip all the seat frames out to put 2+2 seating in. The 810's on the other hand will probably have the same seat is on the other 80x's.

 

[WesternLancer]

They seem to be well received over in Anglia on the flirts, but if they're putting them in at the same sort of seat pitch as used on the XC 170s*, it'll mean you'll actually be able to fit your legs in there because of the niche in the back. I personally find there to be no leg room on those units, so these may be almost tolerable


*it'd seem they are - XC 3 car units notionally seat 191 standard + 9 first, EMR's 3 car have got a claimed capacity of 214 all standard - so they'll somehow manage to cram in even more seats - an all standard XC unit should seat 205 by my reckoning

So is that in line with the claims of "comfy seats and more space" - I'd assume you could only have more space with fewer seats....?

 

[fgwrich]

They seem to be well received over in Anglia on the flirts, but if they're putting them in at the same sort of seat pitch as used on the XC 170s*, it'll mean you'll actually be able to fit your legs in there because of the niche in the back. I personally find there to be no leg room on those units, so these may be almost tolerable


*it'd seem they are - XC 3 car units notionally seat 191 standard + 9 first, EMR's 3 car have got a claimed capacity of 214 all standard - so they'll somehow manage to cram in even more seats - an all standard XC unit should seat 205 by my reckoning

I'm finding the FISA LEAN seems to be picking up mixed reviews across the board - On the GA Flirts, they seem to be very highly regarded, but on SWR's 444s (where they are covered in E-Leather) they seem to be rather loathed. Having travelled in one of SWRs refurbished 444s, I tend to agree with some of the comments regarding their firmness, so perhaps it's the SWR Spec ones letting them down?

Regarding the EMR 170s though - I am a little surprised, as I don't find the current Chapman 170 seats that bad at all really. But that refurbishment does look rather smart and that ex ScotRail batch certainly is very much in need of a refurbishment at last. I'd be very surprised if they took the decision to re-seat the 360s though - again there's little else wrong with those ones other than the lack of armrests / seatback tables (which can be added in when they are modified from 3+2 to 2+2).

 

[Qwerty133]

I personally don't see a problem with the current Chapman seating in the 170s (Hull-Scarborough-Sheffield on them was done fairly comfortably and I'd assume the EMR units would operate similar services) however them being seemingly willing to invest in a comprehensive enough interior refurbishment like the one demonstrated in the poster does appear to be a positive sign nonetheless.

The biggest problems would be in finding sufficient numbers of spares to covert first class areas in standard without having to use a mismatch of seats and that different subclasses of 170/171 don't currently have the same seats meaning units wouldn't be identical.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm finding the FISA LEAN seems to be picking up mixed reviews across the board - On the GA Flirts, they seem to be very highly regarded, but on SWR's 444s (where they are covered in E-Leather) they seem to be rather loathed.

Is that because they are a good Standard seat, but calling them First Class in 2+2 layout is taking the mick, perhaps?

Other than the armrest height, the older Fainsa seats that are found in Electrostar Standard don't seem to be loathed, but people think LM/LNR was taking the mick by calling them 1st.

 

[Speedbird96]

I personally don't see a problem with the current Chapman seating in the 170s (Hull-Scarborough-Sheffield on them was done fairly comfortably and I'd assume the EMR units would operate similar services) however them being seemingly willing to invest in a comprehensive enough interior refurbishment like the one demonstrated in the poster does appear to be a positive sign nonetheless.

I'm finding the FISA LEAN seems to be picking up mixed reviews across the board - On the GA Flirts, they seem to be very highly regarded, but on SWR's 444s (where they are covered in E-Leather) they seem to be rather loathed. Having travelled in one of SWRs refurbished 444s, I tend to agree with some of the comments regarding their firmness, so perhaps it's the SWR Spec ones letting them down?

Regarding the EMR 170s though - I am a little surprised, as I don't find the current Chapman 170 seats that bad at all really. But that refurbishment does look rather smart and that ex ScotRail batch certainly is very much in need of a refurbishment at last. I'd be very surprised if they took the decision to re-seat the 360s though - again there's little else wrong with those ones other than the lack of armrests / seatback tables (which can be added in when they are modified from 3+2 to 2+2).

Given the mix-and-match nature of the Class 170s EMR will be inheriting (WMR’s 170s feature Lazzerinis instead of Chapman, same as the majority of XC’s 170s except 170397/398 which are Chapman), it makes more sense to refit the entire fleet to make them uniform, WMR’s 170s are not much changed from their Central Trains days and are also starting to look tired.

 

[43096]

Wow, that looks fancy. Are the 360s getting the same treatment, I wonder?

FISA LEANs are in comfort terms almost identical to the Grammer E3000 "Desiro seat", in my view, though the back is a bit thicker so a bit less legroom unless your knees fit in the "niche". More than acceptable for a regional stopping service.

Having spent a few days in Anglia last month on the FLIRTs I did quite like the FISA LEANs - certainly better than any other recent standard class seat. It would certainly appear that Abellio have picked up on seat comfort as an issue on new stock and are doing something about it (Greater Anglia, West Mids, and now EMR) - well done to them for doing so.

The acid test will be the 810s. Getting the FISA LEAN accepted for 125mph would be a breakthrough and potentially make the 810s a nice train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The acid test will be the 810s. Getting the FISA LEAN accepted for 125mph would be a breakthrough and potentially make the 810s a nice train.

Or there's the option of whatever Avanti come up with.

 

[superalbs]

Having spent a few days in Anglia last month on the FLIRTs I did quite like the FISA LEANs - certainly better than any other recent standard class seat. It would certainly appear that Abellio have picked up on seat comfort as an issue on new stock and are doing something about it (Greater Anglia, West Mids, and now EMR) - well done to them for doing so.

The acid test will be the 810s. Getting the FISA LEAN accepted for 125mph would be a breakthrough and potentially make the 810s a nice train.

I thought there was something from an EMR spokesperson that said "the seats will be unlike anything seen in the UK before", or am I just making that up?

Whether that's good or bad news, remains to be seen!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought there was something from an EMR spokesperson that said "the seats will be unlike anything seen in the UK before", or am I just making that up?

Whether that's good or bad news, remains to be seen!

Thought that was Avanti who are certifying an entirely new design for their 80x?

 

[43096]

Or there's the option of whatever Avanti come up with.

I'm not sure I'd be that optimistic about them but am prepared to be surprised! At the moment, the FISA LEAN is the best choice for new stock.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not sure I'd be that optimistic about them but am prepared to be surprised! At the moment, the FISA LEAN is the best choice for new stock.

It's certainly a good seat. I am intrigued as to what Avanti will come up with; I'd be surprised if it was totally new, why would a TOC want to pay the huge cost of developing a totally new seat? But if it's good...

 

[43096]

It's certainly a good seat. I am intrigued as to what Avanti will come up with; I'd be surprised if it was totally new, why would a TOC want to pay the huge cost of developing a totally new seat? But if it's good...

If it's good, it's 5 years too late, as we're stuck with the dross in the 80x fleets.

It seems odd that WorstGroup are doing it now, rather than for, say, the TPE and Hull 802s. I wonder what their East Coast open access operation will use?

 

[Domh245]

It seems odd that WorstGroup are doing it now, rather than for, say, the TPE and Hull 802s. I wonder what their East Coast open access operation will use?

I think they may be the "unlike anything seen before" that @superalbs was thinking about. Details are still rather thin on the ground for those though

I suppose that the 802s being options from the GWR order may have tied their hand in terms of the amount of changes they could make - that and to some extent a rush to get them into service ASAP amid the general shortage of stock that was developing last year

 

[fgwrich]

Is that because they are a good Standard seat, but calling them First Class in 2+2 layout is taking the mick, perhaps?

Other than the armrest height, the older Fainsa seats that are found in Electrostar Standard don't seem to be loathed, but people think LM/LNR was taking the mick by calling them 1st.

That could well be the case, and why they are not so popular on SWR. It will be interesting to see what they come up with for the 158/159 fleet - Will they chose to replace all of the seats with the LEAN, replace the large and comfortable Primarius seats in First, or come up with something completely different. From my experience, they just feel too firm and rather more upright - the latter is a symptom of the seat, the former the specification.

Given the mix-and-match nature of the Class 170s EMR will be inheriting (WMR’s 170s feature Lazzerinis instead of Chapman, same as the majority of XC’s 170s except 170397/398 which are Chapman), it makes more sense to refit the entire fleet to make them uniform, WMR’s 170s are not much changed from their Central Trains days and are also starting to look tired.

Ah yes, that's true. I had forgotten about the metal Lazzerini seats (and their rather generous spacing / First Class style armrests). Looking at the pictures between the two, I can see how little LM actually changed during their refurbishment, nothing more than carpets and covers refurb. So standardising the fleet does in this case make sense. Good news for anyone wanting a load of Chapman seats for any upcoming refurbishments!

Central Trains Turbostar Interior

Explore Matthew Black's 21359 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

London Midland Class 170/6 Standard class interior - 170631, 04/06/2010

Explore Lee37427Stratford30A's 48548 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

It's certainly a good seat. I am intrigued as to what Avanti will come up with; I'd be surprised if it was totally new, why would a TOC want to pay the huge cost of developing a totally new seat? But if it's good...

There was a prototype image floating around the internet recently - I'll see if it can find it. It's quite, for a First Group UK Franchise, surprising and rather European. I'm not sure who manufacturers it - I'm sure someone on here will be able to work it out!

Found it. I wonder if, if Avanti can secure certification for 125MPH use, we may see it come across to EMR as well? (Seat in the foreground appears to also be a LEAN, a SOPHIA in the background next to Transcal Rail’s Night Rivieria seat).

 

[superalbs]

That could well be the case, and why they are not so popular on SWR. It will be interesting to see what they come up with for the 158/159 fleet - Will they chose to replace all of the seats with the LEAN, replace the large and comfortable Primarius seats in First, or come up with something completely different. From my experience, they just feel too firm and rather more upright - the latter is a symptom of the seat, the former the specification.



Ah yes, that's true. I had forgotten about the metal Lazzerini seats (and their rather generous spacing / First Class style armrests). Looking at the pictures between the two, I can see how little LM actually changed during their refurbishment, nothing more than carpets and covers refurb. So standardising the fleet does in this case make sense. Good news for anyone wanting a load of Chapman seats for any upcoming refurbishments!

Central Trains Turbostar Interior

Explore Matthew Black's 21359 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

London Midland Class 170/6 Standard class interior - 170631, 04/06/2010

Explore Lee37427Stratford30A's 48548 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

There was a prototype image floating around the internet recently - I'll see if it can find it. It's quite, for a First Group UK Franchise, surprising and rather European. I'm not sure who manufacturers it - I'm sure someone on here will be able to work it out!

Found it. I wonder if, if Avanti can secure certification for 125MPH use, we may see it come across to EMR as well? (Seat in the foreground appears to also be a LEAN, a SOPHIA in the background next to Transcal Rail’s Night Rivieria seat).

BORCAD Flexio, I used it in Slovakia a few weeks ago. To be honest, that's pretty impressive for a second class UK seat. Wow!

EDIT: That actually appears to be in the ZSSK colours as well, so maybe that's not right. What's the source of that please, I'd love to research it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

BORCAD Flexio, I used it in Slovakia a few weeks ago. To be honest, that's pretty impressive for a second class UK seat. Wow!

Only concern I'd have is the "wings" being too low down for tall people.

 

[fgwrich]

BORCAD Flexio, I used it in Slovakia a few weeks ago. To be honest, that's pretty impressive for a second class UK seat. Wow!

EDIT: That actually appears to be in the ZSSK colours as well, so maybe that's not right. What's the source of that please, I'd love to research it.

Intriguing, as the comment below it said it was similar to both Go-North West and Avanti WCs new Moquette. I can’t remember which Facebook page it appeared on but the words Pendolino refurbishment and in London were used I’m afraid!

 

[superalbs]

I've started a new thread as we have ended up quite off-topic:

Possible New Avanti Seat Design

I thought there was something from an EMR spokesperson that said "the seats will be unlike anything seen in the UK before", or am I just making that up? Whether that's good or bad news, remains to be seen! Thought that was Avanti who are certifying an entirely new design for their 80x...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[grumpyoldman01]

Similarly, when looking in the Emergency Measures Agreement for EM (the closest we'll ever get to seeing the original franchise agreement I expect) - the various turbostars currently at Southern all carry the following note: "Fleet currently in use by the franchisee of the Thameslink, Southern and Great Northern franchise and must be free to incorporate into the franchise. "

Read that how you will, but my interpretation is that they are moving in September 2021 on the basis of some as yet unspecified solution. There's no conditionals in there

Sorry for the lateness in getting involved in this discussion, but I have to agree with Domh245 on this.

By use of the word must, I believe this is an instruction to the franchisee of the Thameslink. Southern and Great Northern franchise - ie, they MUST be free to incorporate into the [East Midlands Railway] franchise when its lease for them starts in September 2021; if the transfer was subject to replacements being available, or if the 171s were to be sub-leased back to Southern, the EMA could easily have stated that

 

[Energy]

Sorry for the lateness in getting involved in this discussion, but I have to agree with Domh245 on this.

By use of the word must, I believe this is an instruction to the franchisee of the Thameslink. Southern and Great Northern franchise - ie, they MUST be free to incorporate into the [East Midlands Railway] franchise when its lease for them starts in September 2021; if the transfer was subject to replacements being available, or if the 171s were to be sub-leased back to Southern, the EMA could easily have stated that

It would be weird to put an instruction to TSGN in EMR's EMA though.

 

[Wolfie]

It would be weird to put an instruction to TSGN in EMR's EMA though.

Absolutely. You would expect, if it's supposed to be binding on TSGN, that it would appear in their EMA (perhaps solely or perhaps in parallel with the EMR one).