End of catering on SWR

[swt_passenger]

... especially if the West of England line gets the Midland Main Line Meridens in a couple of years.

That’s just regular forum wishful thinking. I think it’s very unlikely to happen for various good reasons, but probably off topic for this thread...

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Oh God, not that old railway curly sandwich thing again!

Buying at Waterloo is fine, but by the time I've got to Salisbury, I'm ready for a second cup, and it's still a long way to Exeter. If this is a permanent change I'll certainly be travelling with GWR more often.

Quite - that hackneyed jibe at railway catering is best left for Tory politicians and the non train travelling similar tabloids. Shame to lose a chance for a decent tea , coffee or Kitkat / cake.

Enroute to Soton for the Transatlantic Queen Mary 2 we had not vast quantities of luggage , or a great desire to eat on the train (even a mythical "curly" sandwich) , as we had a cornucopia of fine eating ahead of us. Especially the afternoon teas which had non curdled fresh sandwiches - incredibly popular with our European fellow travellers , for which a proper English silver service tea was a massive attraction.

Feel sorry for the staff - let us hope that better times come around.

 

[Robertj21a]

Difficult to imagine how any catering on these services can possibly make a profit.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Difficult to imagine how any catering on these services can possibly make a profit.

Difficult to imagine how any railway catering can make a profit, really. It's usually done as something that enhances the service and makes it more attractive as a loss leader. But SWR to Exeter is somewhere between a local stopping service and a budget service. The former doesn't need catering, and the latter would prefer generally that there wasn't any as that means a lower fare.

Airline catering is only different because the stewards have to be there by law for safety and so their wage doesn't need to be covered by the sale of refreshments. It's more analogous to a theoretical (and largely not feasible) situation of the guard being the one selling them. Which I've experienced exactly once on a railbus operated by Prignitzer Eisenbahnen in Germany in the 90s!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Difficult to imagine how any catering on these services can possibly make a profit.

Train catering has almost always been a "loss leader" - and especially in this century. Having said that , the catering offer on the ATW franchise was added in for not a huge sum of money , (which I will not divulge) , but apart from another service benefit to the users from roughly 0700 to 0900 (but in reality was longer) , meant jobs in places like Carmarthen etc and a good future source of rail acquainted / familiar recruits.


Different ball game no doubt when in the !9th and 20thC century there was far less competition , much less choice, longer journey times and of course the ability to employ staff on "not very good" wages with long working days.

I am amazed to think that in the 1960's and probably into the 1970's , you had "proper" buffet cars on Highland services - even to Wick I believe - and full cooked meal services for at least part of the way on those routes.

I hope that Great Western can reprieve their superb full meal services to and from South Wales and Plymouth (slightly off topic)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am amazed to think that in the 1960's and probably into the 1970's , you had "proper" buffet cars on Highland services - even to Wick I believe

I think the economics are different when you talk about sticking an ancient Mk1 buffet car you already have in the formation (and because BR owned their stock, there was no ongoing lease cost, just a bit of maintenance). Sure, it'll use a bit more diesel than not doing, but probably not hugely more. What costs in that case is the staff, and that's basically the same as if that member of staff was pushing a trolley instead.

It's modern stock that shifts that economy, because you have to then find the million-and-a-half quid to purchase said catering vehicle, which is why a trolley is more viable.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I think the economics are different when you talk about sticking an ancient Mk1 buffet car you already have in the formation (and because BR owned their stock, there was no ongoing lease cost, just a bit of maintenance). Sure, it'll use a bit more diesel than not doing, but probably not hugely more. What costs in that case is the staff, and that's basically the same as if that member of staff was pushing a trolley instead.

It's modern stock that shifts that economy, because you have to then find the million-and-a-half quid to purchase said catering vehicle, which is why a trolley is more viable.

Yes - quite right - when the vehicles were life expired , they went. (along with the rest of the MK1's and locos) - ever thought of a new career as catering on the Conway Valley line ?

 

[swt_passenger]

Back when RG had the SWT contract, weren’t GWR also serviced from Portsmouth Hbr and Salisbury as well? Are they now completely separated out?

 

[Busaholic]

The amount of passengers travelling all the way to Exeter from Waterloo is very small I'd imagine. It's essentially a local stopping service west of Salisbury.
Most people travelling to Exeter will use the much faster GWR services which ofc have catering.

Given the price differential between Waterloo and Paddington as destinations from Exeter and stations west thereof on certain ticket types (the lower price almost always being to Waterloo) combined with the disastrous seating on the GWR services, I would imagine this to no longer be the case. There are also people like myself whose ultimate destination is South London, away from tubeland, for whom Waterloo is more convenient and, should a taxi be required, considerably cheaper too.

 

[py_megapixel]

The amount of passengers travelling all the way to Exeter from Waterloo is very small I'd imagine. It's essentially a local stopping service west of Salisbury.
Most people travelling to Exeter will use the much faster GWR services which ofc have catering.

I think quite a number of price-conscious leisure travellers used to use it because of the cheap advances... however I'd imagine that this market is essentially gone for the time being with Covid stuff going on, and those customers probably aren't the most lucrative anyway as they probably aren't the most likely to buy stuff off the trolley.

 

[trebor79]

Not particularly surprising, especially in the current circumstances. People are probably more hesitant to buy food given they're stuck in a mask for the whole journey so have no way to eat it.

On the contrary, it's an incentive to buy something to eat or drink, as it's a valid reason to remove the thing from your face, expressly stated in law and not having to rely upon "reasonable excuse" or risk vigilantes questioning you about your medical conditions.
It's far more likely that there just isn't much trade because there aren't many passengers at the moment. When I travelled to Somewhere beyond Southampton early in the year (but pre-COVID) ther train was about one third loaded and the trolley made a sale at almost every occupied seat.
Maybe it'll come back when passenger numbers increase again.

 

[stj]

Maybe they should offer catering to a retailer such as Costa/Greggs and see if they can make it work as it does on the high st

 

[Robertj21a]

Maybe they should offer catering to a retailer such as Costa/Greggs and see if they can make it work as it does on the high st

Doubt they would touch it with a bargepole, unless they were paid to do it (unlikely!).

 

[Ianno87]

Yes - quite right - when the vehicles were life expired , they went. (along with the rest of the MK1's and locos) - ever thought of a new career as catering on the Conway Valley line ?

The Settle & Carlisle trolley service (staffed by volunteers) seemed to do OK. Have any other rural supporters groups tried similar elsewhere?

 

[trebor79]

I hope that Great Western can reprieve their superb full meal services to and from South Wales and Plymouth (slightly off topic)

So do I, I was hatching a plan to be able to sample that and then COVID happened. They did seem to be reasonably proud of it though, so hopefully it will return. At least all of the stock still has the kitchens, so it ought to be pretty easy to bring back. And no doubt passenger numbers will be somewhat depressed for a number of year, so anything that entices people back is going to be good. Plus, I don't doubt Pullman Dining makes a profit provided sufficient numbers avail themselves - the revenue is an order of magnitude different from a cup of coffee and a biscuit!

 

[paul1609]

The amount of passengers travelling all the way to Exeter from Waterloo is very small I'd imagine. It's essentially a local stopping service west of Salisbury.
Most people travelling to Exeter will use the much faster GWR services which ofc have catering.

I think you are wrong. If you are at Waterloo or your journey in to London brings you there (or Waterloo East) or Clapham Junction (Brighton or Gatwick) and you are going to Exeter City Centre (Central) theres no great time saving in traipsing across to Paddington for a service that dumps you some distance from the town.

 

[davetheguard]

Enroute to Soton for the Transatlantic Queen Mary 2 we had not vast quantities of luggage , or a great desire to eat on the train (even a mythical "curly" sandwich)

Totally off topic (apologies!), I seem to remember a certain John Curly being Area Manager at Southampton. I'm not sure if he had anything to do with the sandwiches though.

To get back on topic, I agree that the number of people travelling right through from Waterloo to Exeter is probably quite small, but if you live right in the middle of Exeter near Central as I once did, or want parts of London nearer Waterloo than Paddington, it's not a completely unnatural choice. The fares are generally cheaper & the seats are definitely, in my opinion, more comfortable than those ordered by the DfT for GWR.

I hope this is a short term Coronavirus casualty; B.R. understood that providing catering on trains attracted punters out of their cars on to trains. It's sad to see the railway giving up one of its natural advantages voluntarily.

 

[theironroad]

Doesn't seem to have been an official public announcement from swr - just leaked out yesterday, that's not to say it's not true. Unfortunately it is.

However, swr were bleating away about a new MD yesterday and Hopwood returning to GWR.

Burying had news?

 

[vlad]

It's all very well saying SWR are scrapping catering - but that's essentially just confirming the present situation.

Due to you-know-what, the catering trolleys aren't running at the moment anyway - this despite the fact that from personal experience the trains are being used.

 

[Gloster]

I gave up using the trolleys on the Portsmouth route a fair few years ago and always bought at Portsmouth Harbour or Waterloo before departure. I could never be sure if there really would be a trolley on the service and, even if there was, when or whether it came through the train. On one occasion the trolley had left the rearmost coach of the train, a 444 with the First Class misformed at the rear, before the coach had left the platform at Harbour and wasn’t seen again.

 

[urpert]

I have to say I’ve never used one. They’re expensive and a poor selection and they never have what I want. Admittedly approx 80% of my travel is within London and of the remaining 20%, probably only 5% is outside the London and South East commuter area, so I’m used to being close to shops (many 24hr) to buy what I want when I want. I appreciate that this won’t be the case for the customers of Yeovil!

Feel sorry the staff losing jobs of course, that goes without saying, but I personally won’t miss anything.

Yeovil Junction used to have an amazing buffet in the 90s. Is it still there?

 

[21C101]

Yeovil Junction used to have an amazing buffet in the 90s. Is it still there?

It sadly recently closed and seems to have been converted into train crew accomodation.

 

[urpert]

It sadly recently closed and seems to have been converted into train crew accomodation.

Alas! Given how far the station is from the town I guess it had a fairly captive audience.

 

[JonathanH]

Doesn't seem to have been an official public announcement from swr - just leaked out yesterday, that's not to say it's not true. Unfortunately it is.

TERMINATION OF SOUTH WESTERN RAILWAY ON BOARD CATERING CONTRACT – ELIOR

4th December 2020

Dear Colleagues

TERMINATION OF SOUTH WESTERN RAILWAY ON BOARD CATERING CONTRACT – ELIOR

Your Lead Officer met with the Managing Director of Elior yesterday (Thursday 3rd December 2020) and was informed that SWR are terminating the contract with Elior and that SWR had obtained approval from the Department for Transport. All catering services on SWR are to cease with no known date for their reintroduction. This news came as a shock to us, and Elior who were hoping to return to providing their service in the near future and had been working with SWR to negotiate the contract and minimum peak levels.

The move to terminate the contract by SWR has come as an extremely unpleasant surprise and is hugely disappointing. Elior are unable to continue using the furlough scheme that has been in place for staff as the contract has been terminated. Because of the contract termination, notice has been given for 45 days consultation with redundancies planned to take effect on 17th January 2020.

SWR has chosen without any warning to terminate Elior’s contract using a break clause that could result in 134 staff being made redundant, many who are members of this union. This is an atrocious act given the wider circumstances.

Your National Executive Committee has considered the report from the Lead Officer. The NEC has noted that that SWR’s decision is completely reckless and inconsiderate. The government’s furlough scheme is in place to protect jobs at a time of national crisis and SWR have completely disregarded the spirit of the scheme – to save jobs – by terminating the contract leading to a potential redundancy situation for 134 staff.

The NEC have further noted that SWR have decided to remove catering from their services without any form of consultation with their passengers and that they have given no indication whatsoever as to when catering will be reinstated on their franchise. This shows a complete contempt to passengers and to SWR’s commitment to provide catering services within its Passenger Charter.

SWR need to take responsibility for these redundancies in terminating a contract whose purpose was to meet their responsibility to its customers in providing on-board catering.

Given this outrageous development the NEC have instructed me to take a number of actions to ensure the catering service at SWR continues and our members’ jobs at Elior are maintained. I will be writing to the Department for Transport to condemn SWR’s decision to terminate the contract and demanding they adopt a no-compulsory redundancy approach as stated in RMT’s Policy on Fighting Redundancies. The public health crisis should not be used as an excuse for redundancies to take place. Particularly by private companies like SWR who receive public money and are now chipping away at the services they should be providing.

I will be writing to SWR to condemn their decision to terminate the contract and demand that the contract is allowed to run as a minimum until the end of the furlough scheme, and then for the situation to be reviewed by a tri party meeting of Elior, SWR and RMT. As soon as is practicable SWR should bring all catering services in-house. If SWR are not willing to continue adhering to the contract then SWR must take all Elior staff working on the contract in-house and use them to best advantage until on-board catering can resume.

I will also be writing to Elior to demand that no member of RMT is made redundant and to ensure that meetings are held with them to explore all possible options for redeployment within Elior and any other companies within the same group.

We will be issuing a press release to bring attention to this disgraceful situation and initiating a public campaign to save on-board catering on SWR. RMT’s parliamentary group will be raising this on behalf of members and to condemn SWR in the House of Commons.

A remote video meeting is being arranged for you and your colleagues with their Regional Organiser and a Legal Advisor present as soon as in possible

SWR have made an outrageous move in terminating the contract while the furlough scheme is in place. Your union will do everything possible to fight for your colleagues’ jobs. I will keep you updated on all future developments in this matter.

Yours sincerely

Mick Cash
General Secretary

 

[The DJ]

they're stuck in a mask for the whole journey so have no way to eat it.

Um, you do know you are permitted to lower the mask to eat, don't you? If you are deciding not to lower your mask to eat, that is your own personal decision.

 

[theironroad]

TERMINATION OF SOUTH WESTERN RAILWAY ON BOARD CATERING CONTRACT – ELIOR

Thanks very much. Very interesting, useful and alas depressing.

It's all very well saying SWR are scrapping catering - but that's essentially just confirming the present situation.

Due to you-know-what, the catering trolleys aren't running at the moment anyway - this despite the fact that from personal experience the trains are being used.

The present situation is that Elior staff were in the government furlough scheme and would have remained so until march when hopefully passenger numbers were picking up enough to introduce the trollies, if not before.

With the contract being terminated, those 134 staff can no longer be on the furlough scheme and in all likelihood will be made redundant on 17 January next year, a pretty dire start to a new year when a vaccine will be rolled out as some sense of a return to a normal public life can resume.

I can't remember how many were made redundant on the aborted grand Central scheme or cleaners at Hull trains, but if 134 are made redundant I believe this may be the biggest casualty in the rail sector so far.

 

[Monty]

That is sad to hear, I got to know some of the catering staff quite well. Good people many of of them were.

 

[[.n]]

Dreadful news, although I’m not sure the relevance of RG losing the contract with the decision that’s been made.

From my perspective, the service actually managed to go downhill after the transfer from RG to Elior

The buffet spaces being removed is also not a reason as they were so rarely used as a buffet, only when the trains were too busy for a trolley to pass through.

They were used on some peak services quite effectively, also removing the ability a few years ago to top hot water didn't help asnd the microwaves too, means there is no dedicated "parking space" for the trollies / place for staff to leave their stuff. no here to have extra stock if required etc

Could it be that they're changing supplier again and have no need for a contract right now due to the situation? I did a survey about 3 weeks ago over the future of their on train catering provision however this could've informed them to some degree it wasn't needed.

I feel that if they (SWR) did this, then it would be tricky to actually make the Elior staff redundant, as it would be potentially breaking the rules around redundancy

 

[Colin1501]

Covid can't have helped, but I can't help thinking this is yet another manifestation of the 'dumbing down' of the service since First Group/MTR took over. I commuted daily between Winchester and Waterloo from 2006 to 2018 and, say what you like about Stagecoach, they made a pretty good job of this franchise. It can't just be coincidence that, before the franchise change, my train home was invariably 3 to 4 minutes early into Winchester, yet almost from the date of the change, arrival was generally 2 to 3 minutes late. And to get back on topic, I regularly bought stuff from the trolley and found all the staff brilliant. My sympathy to them.

 

[[.n]]

Presumably also Axminster is affected?

It wasn't mentioned in the letter I saw, but I assume so - is there actually an Elior base there, or is it staffed from elsewhere?

That is sad to hear, I got to know some of the catering staff quite well. Good people many of of them were.

Yes, I agree

Im unsure why staff couldn’t have been offered station or train cleaning duties as Scotrail, TPE & possibly others have with their caterers temporarily , rather than redundancy

Staff are employed by Elior not SWR, so would have to apply in the normal way for SWR jobs, they have been offered the "opportunity" to look elsewhere within Elior, but its not like there a lot of jobs going at the moment!

I suspect behind the scenes DfT are happy to get rid of something that SWR are forking out for and probably getting little or no return from.